January 15, 2006

• So do the two cancel each other out?
• The blog that's linked "in the interest of fairness" has a picture of John Murtha next to a picture of Benedict Arnold, labeled 'then and now'. I don't interest in fairness has much to do with it...
• If that link isn't "the other side"... maybe this one is.
• Goddamn, I would hope and assume that there are soldiers over there doing some good. I mean, I'm no Candide but there's got to be something positive happening there, surely.
• "Sorry I killed your Mom, kid. Here, have a stuffed bear."
• *whirrring sound of monkey-surfing* This could be something positive . "...Average household incomes have soared by 60 percent in the last 20 months (to $263 a month), 70 percent of Iraqis rate their own economic situation positively..."
• It's good that they're optimistic. Hope for a better future is the first step to having one. I wonder how the current average income compares to prewar figures? The increase in feelings of security is encouraging, too, although I venture to guess that that feeling will increase as less of that securiy comes from foreign troops.
• "Sorry I killed your Mom, kid. Here, have a stuffed bear." Yeah...because individual soldiers are sadistic killing machines who spend long hours of the night making little marks on the insides of their tents to indicate "How Many Kids I Killed Today" I'm sorry...is it 1968 again? Because vilifying individuals in knee jerk response to a lazy stereotype certainly worked out well for American troops returning from Viet Nam.
• A) Take this to metafilter. B) Moneyjane is totally, absolutely, and undeniably correct. C) I guess if the per capita GNP is going up, I guess we don't have to worry about anything else, do we?
• A) Take this to metafilter. ??
• Yeah, I gotta call WTF on that one too, petebest.
• Please let it be 1968 again.
• >Yeah...because individual soldiers are sadistic killing machines I don't think anybody suggested this. Individual soldiers are humans just like any others, placed in an appalling situation. Hard questions should be asked about the situation and the people who engineered it. Our soldiers are fighting in cities with no way to tell civilians from armed enemies. I have nothing to say about the soldiers but 'God bless 'em'; nevertheless it is difficult to regard handing out toys as anything but the cheapest kind of photo op. If that's supposed to be winning hearts and minds, it's a band aid on a bomb crater.
• The images miss the real issuse, that of securing Oil to shore up a system run on oil that has past its peak production. When the USA wake up and understand how they have been lied too, and there futures sold down the river by the greed of evil men, who by the way will find some evil empire to blame and deflect the crimes they have commited.
• I'm sure the individual soldiers have nothing but the best motives, and that the gifts are much appreciated. But I can't deny that there is a certain element of sad irony inherent in the situation.
• A couple of months ago I had to photograph American troops returning to Iraq after having leave here in America-I was concerned that I might not be received well and asked the guy who handled the charter flights what the general mood was. He said that I should be gentle and ask before I photographed because sometimes a soldier would freak out before he boarded the plane and start to cry at the gate. I boarded first and stayed away from the gate. I could smell a lot of alcohol in the cabin. I hung out a while, they got used to me and they liked being photographed. Then I had to go, since I wasn't going to Iraq. It was very hard to leave them. Everything about this war sucks. Because American 'troops' are individual human beings who have sacrificed something (in many cases a limb or a life) to be in Iraq. Because none of the horror in the photographs on the web site Scartol posted needed to happen. It's like pawns killing pawns. Sorry for the rant. This makes me crazy with sorrow.
• I agree. None of the current puppetmasters has any military experience, and that galls me. It's like the most bloodthirsty, technically adept videogamers getting ahold of our foreign policy. It's sick. But I know the troops in this mess have a horrible situation, because the enemy doesn't look like an enemy.
• Yeah...because individual soldiers are sadistic killing machines I don't think anybody suggested this. Call me crazy, stan, but I'm pretty damn sure Jatayu das did with; "Sorry I killed your Mom, kid. Here, have a stuffed bear." I'd like to know how one could construe that as a respectful and accurate assessment of the attitude of American soldiers toward civilian children in Iraq.
• I don't know any Iraqi war vets, either Desert Storm or after. I do have two uncles who were command fighter pilots in Vietnam, and they are saddened by the lack of support or vision for the troops in this "war." There's nothing to do but bomb the hell out of these people, teaching them that if one isn't compliant, one will die. My uncles are amazed and impressed with this scorched-earth policy. But they both wholeheartedly support the poor fucks who are stuck trying to implement this mess.
• I'm sure the individual soldiers have nothing but the best motives, Right. My Lai ring any bells? Or, to move forward to the current war: "...They don't see the Iraqi people the way we see them. They view them as untermenschen. They are not concerned about the Iraqi loss of life in the way the British are. Their attitude towards the Iraqis is tragic, it's awful." (Source) Or torture camps run by US troops. Demonlishing ancient monuments? And don't forget the charming mercenaries backing up the regular troops. MoneyJane is right. It's obviously completely unfair to suggest "individual soldiers" are nutbars. There is no history of massively heightened domestic violence amongst US millitary personell compared to the general population. The US army have never had soldiers run amok and murder civilians for fun.
• What the hell are you asserting, here, that individual US soldiers are committing atrocities?
• Let me rephrase: are you asserting that it is general policy to commit atrocities?
• I've never been able to understand why some people think that folks who don't support the war don't support the grunts fighting it. I have never met one single person who feels this way. With the obvious exceptions like Abu Gharib, we understand that soldiers do what they're told and take pride in their work like everybody else. I think some mining companies aren't doing a responsible job, but I have the utmost respect for the guys down in the shaft.
• Yes, Rodgerd. Lets blame people with a high school education for not being able to discern the motives of the oil lobby.
• Oh, that sounded awful elitist and that's not what I meant at all. Sorry.
• go there and telll me about it.
• Yes, rogerd, and I'm sure I can find as many amazing examples of individual soldiers doing altruistic and caring things for civilians. Because different people do different things under extreme stress. I love how a post designed for us to recognize wounded and dead Iraqi civilians as real individuals has prompted you to view American soldiers as an amorphous savage mass. As a little kid, me and my mother spent a night in the airport with soldiers shipping out to Vietnam. Maybe my child's eyes were horribly deceived, but I remember them as real people. Imagine that.
• There is no history of massively heightened domestic violence amongst US millitary personell compared to the general population. Do you think when these guys enlist, they check the box for extra training in "Beating The Shit Out Of My Wife And Kids When I Get Back"? Or is it perhaps further evidence of how war kicks the guts out of anybody unfortunate enough to end up as bullet bait on the ground, soldier or civilian alike?
• Everything counts in large amounts ~ Everything counts in large amounts ~ It's a competitive world ~
• I'd like to know how one could construe that as a respectful and accurate assessment of the attitude of American soldiers toward civilian children in Iraq Could just as easily be a comment on the US/UK governmental attitude, applying a superficial anodyne to the insurmountable tragedy being perpetrated there through their short-sighted policies. Methinks there's some jumpiness in evidence among our esteemed monkey-brethren tonight.
• I've never been able to understand why some people think that folks who don't support the war don't support the grunts fighting it because "i support the troops" is the modern-day equivalent of "I am not, nor have I ever been a member of the communist party" -- of course I "support" the troops in the sense I support everyone everywhere who has a dangerous job to do: I would rather they not die doing their job. however, I refuse to go around saying "I support the troops" on command like a trained seal to prove my patriotism.
• >are you asserting that it is general policy to commit atrocities? Again- I have nothing but sympathy and respect for our soldiers. And again- we are bombing cities. There is *no way* for our guys to tell the difference between civilians and armed enemies. OF COURSE IT IS GENERAL POLICY TO COMMIT ATROCITIES. The whole premise is an atrocity- not because of but in spite of what the individual soldiers might wish. And as for the 'here's a teddy bear' remark, I read that the way Nickdanger did. Reduce it to a statement of facts, without any 'sadistic' inflection: "First we were told to blow up your house; now we've been told to give you these toys." It's just an example of the kind of situational insanity that we're asking these guys to cope with somehow.
• I read that the way Nickdanger did. That still doesn't tell us anything about how Jatayu das meant it.
• So, Stan, looks like we both agree that blasting the hell out of any civilian area potentially harboring the enemy is the plan du jour. Makes sense -- gets rid of terrorists by definition, plus potential hideouts. I will say, it's a lose-lose proposition. I'm just saying we could have handled it better. Too late now, though.
• *off-topic There used to be a glimmer of hope, I guess. Iraq is filled with young Americans who have never been exposed to anything close to what they are exposed to now. There really is no way to prepare someone to kill. Not really. So many of these kids went in there as naive pawns not understanding the reality of what was happening. They have it pounded into their brains that what they are doing is protecting Americans, ultimately, showing loyalty to the American flag -- it's honorable. Tough job, but someone's got to do it. Most of these kids are from small towns and the military is the best option. They haven't been exposed to much yet they are taken to a very foreign country and expected to make life or death decisions for other people. They are fed questionable knowledge and made/expected to operate under those facts. The suffering there is huge. For everyone. I cannot judge them. I feel sorry for them. I'm angry that those who have the power are using innocent lives to kill innocent lives. It's morally wrong. There is no other way to see it. BTW, I haven't seen/read the link and I am not going to.
• Must be nice to live in such a black and white world, and to know all the answers, rodgerd. I.e.: What Indica said. Or: Don't blame the player, blame the game.
• "Sorry I killed your Mom, kid. Here, have a stuffed bear." Yeah...because individual soldiers are sadistic killing machines who spend long hours of the night making little marks on the insides of their tents to indicate "How Many Kids I Killed Today" I can't tell if you are intentionally building a strawman or if you really did misinterpret the comment by that much. The sentiment expressed is that no amount of good will can ever undo the damage done. What you got from the sentiment so far different than the point that I find it extremely difficult to see the trail you took to get there. As a little kid, me and my mother spent a night in the airport with soldiers shipping out to Vietnam. Maybe my child's eyes were horribly deceived, but I remember them as real people. Imagine that. Yeah, my old man served in Vietnam. But I guess you have more insight Vietnam soldiers from that one encounter you had. Imagine that. I don't believe I've ever met a single person who wasn't fully aware that soldiers in Vietnam are real people. What makes you think your so special for knowing it? and more importantly, what does that have to with any of this? Are you trying to say that since you figured out Vietnam soldier were real, that means giving food aid to Iraqis makes it alright to kill Iraqis? If that's not what you are trying to say, then what are you trying to say?
• That still doesn't tell us anything about how Jatayu das meant it. Right, no one besides Jatayu das has that information at this point, so lets not jump to the worst possible conclusion just cause you're feeling feisty.
• My brother is a sergeant, part of a civilian affairs unit in the Army Reserves. He spent 8 months overseas (near Tikrit is the best I've ever been able to tell, I never got an actual location). He spent most of his time in Iraq working with people, building things like schools and pump stations and then coming back the next day to find all the new equipment stolken or vandalized. When he got back from his assignment he came to visit me in my lab. A co-worker asked him point-blank if he killed anyone. I was totally shocked - I mean, you just don't ask about shit like that. Not kosher. The guy asking is from India, so maybe some cultural difference made him think it was OK... but damn. My brother answered "No... well, anyway we never stopped to check." He's OK, as far as I know. Actually spends more time with his family than he used to, and seems less concerned about himself. He doesn't understand the thing with the pictures though. Photos of what is really happening. He said to me that he had some pictures he took while he was there, but he went through and erased or destroyed a lot of them. He told me he didn't need to remember some of the things he saw, and I don't blame him. He said nothing there made sense. Huge mansions next to mud-walled shacks, and an SUV in both driveways. Kids tagging along everywhere, offering to sell you things or buy anything you'd give them. Most of what they sold was items stolen from other Americans, or salvaged from convoys that had been attacked. I take things with him the same way I do with my father-in-law (a Vietnam vet, served several tours before coming home). The simple rule: You don't ask about anything. If they offer to talk, you talk, but you don't ask questions that will lead anywhere they don't want to go. War fucks you up. Nobody deserves to have that happen to them. The least we can do is give people the space to deal with it on their own terms.
• FWIW, I thought Jatayu das's comment was idiotic, and I had the same reaction as mj.
• These days every time I see anyone in uniform passing through an airport, my first thought is "I hope you're on your way home."
• I don't believe I've ever met a single person who wasn't fully aware that soldiers in Vietnam are real people. You weren't around when people were hurling spit and epithets at them when they came home, calling them "babykillers" and the like.
• ...if you really did misinterpret the comment by that much Yeah, I really did "misinterpret" it that much. The sentiment expressed is that no amount of good will can ever undo the damage done. Oh. You're Jataya das? Yeah, my old man served in Vietnam. But I guess you have more insight Vietnam soldiers from that one encounter you had. Imagine that. Right. Me expressing my experience immediately invalidates anybody else's. Incidently, my stepfather was a draft dodger and participated in distributing info during the Carter amnesty; I used the back of the pamphlets to draw on for years. Maybe your dad and my dad could have a fight. Whoever wins, their kid officially gets more insight... I don't believe I've ever met a single person who wasn't fully aware that soldiers in Vietnam are real people. Fabulous. Well I have; and my whole point was that Jataya das was - and we'll go with you here - the only person in the entire universe who wasn't. What makes you think your so special for knowing it? Are you suggesting my speaking up about what I see as nasty stereotyping means I think I'm 'special'? That's your problem, not mine. Are you trying to say that since you figured out Vietnam soldier were real, that means giving food aid to Iraqis makes it alright to kill Iraqis? Yes. You got me. Actually, I've written to George suggesting he cut out the middleman and simply plant modified land minds directly in the food. Just waiting on the call back. If that's not what you are trying to say, then what are you trying to say? Oddly enough, I'm trying to say what I said; ...war kicks the guts out of anybody unfortunate enough to end up as bullet bait on the ground, soldier or civilian alike... Incidently, given this post was rightly designed to evoke strong feelings, and that jataya das' comment could be interpreted a number of ways as evidenced by the number of people who have commented on its possible meaning, I don't see feisty as inappropriate, unless we're supposed to save feisty only for OS wars and self-linker damnation.
• This war would be over if everyone ran Windows.
• Although if it was, then, I'd finally find a use for my hard-won Minesweeper skills.
• MCT may use Windows; therefore that was a self-link. I'm going to sink his battleship. Then laugh. And laugh...and laugh!
• I don't see feisty as inappropriate, unless we're supposed to save feisty only for OS wars and self-linker damnation. Ain't nothing wrong with feisty. I just don't know that your rancor was directed at a deserving target. Maybe I'll never know. I'd just hate to be on the recieving end of your distinctive brand of whithering sarcasm unless I was asking for it. So, yeah, the moment one of the monkeys actually calls all soldiers "sadistic baby-killers" I'll be the first to aim the MoneyJane-Signal high and laugh as you melt the flesh from his face with your patented Indigna-bile. That's a promise.
• I'm thinking I should make up some commemorative t-shirts just in case. "Indigna-bile: corrosively corrosive yet annoyingly annoying!"
• Just for the record, I read the comment the same way MJ did.
• There's also this: Calendar of US Military Dead during Iraq War (via Cryptome.org).
• Fes: Minesweeper was created by Microsoft to train our youth for the war ahead. That and Battlezone. In the future, all of our tanks will be made using only glowing outlines. They look more Tron that way.
• Ender's Game, anyone?
• I thought we were boycotting that guy. And in the future, all of our tanks will have glowing pigs mounted for night vision.
• Heck, in the future our tanks will be glowing pigs.
• The Iraq War as a Trophy Photo