Apparently: "The site is a notorious bottleneck for the massive crowds that attend the hajj pilgrimage and has seen deadly stampedes in the past, including one in 1990 that killed 1,426 people and another in February 2004 that killed 244. This year's hajj was already marred by the collapse of a building being used as a pilgrims' hotel that killed 76 people in Mecca on Jan. 5."
I was just reading about this on MSNBC. And the Beeb. And AlJazeera. And Haaretz. And CNN. And Google News. And my television news. And NPR. I still. however, am waiting for Juan Cole and the Agonist to talk about it.
I hate for this to sound nonchalant, but it seems to be stampede season again at the hajj.
If the authorities cared enough (or perhaps at all) about the pilgrims, they'd perhaps have better measures against this sort of thing which seems to keep happening in the same places and in the same ways over and over again.
If the authorities cared enough (or perhaps at all) about the pilgrims, they'd perhaps have better measures
No, this is just the problem with religion. Sheepism, it inspires. Hajj is just the latest religious event to be plagued by the fact that human beings turn into uncivilized neanderthals when we regress back to belief in religion.
However, here are some fascinating pictures of the stoning of satan. And the grandiosity of the picture in this article reminds me of a scene from Star Wars.
The Jews believe a wall can ingest and then read their love notes. Christians kill, murder, and enslave erect evergreen trees in their houses, and then let babies puke all over them for decoration. Moslems throw fucking rocks at big pillars. How much cooler is that. I totally would do this.
Im thinking Ian is probably not a born again xtian.
I have a friend named Christian and we have discussed many times that the abbreviation should in fact be "xian" because the x=christ + ian=christian, no?
re this sad event, I can't help but feel that an occasional death toll is all part of the package re this, and many other fucked up mass-scale religious events of a fanatical nature (there are accounts of early xians all but seeking martyrdom, it was considered such a holy way to die and no, I don't have a link to a source on that--but hey! we all like playing with the widdle wions--here kitty kitty!)
jesus, do I sound like ethylene here, or what?
I suppose I should seek to clarify what I just said and it occurs to me that what I mean is that I perceive many of the modern incarnations of fundamentalism to be "cults of death" (ie, apocalyptic etc.,) with well-entrenched ideas that dying in the course of a religious event/ceremony/crusade/whatever confers honor/entrance to heaven/sainthood/whatnot.
Oh happy day -- they got to heaven early! Hooray! Hooray!!
>No, this is just the problem with religion. Sheepism, it inspires.
Of course, rational, Modern people are much too clever for this sort of thing *cough*Who concert*cough*soccer game*cough*.
Speaking as someone who does NOT subscribe to any of the major religious franchises, I have to say, the whole 'religious people are stoopit' thing that gets going here every once in a while is kind of stale. Christians, Muslims, atheists, mystics, scientists, professional spirit mediums, geeks on the Internet- all share, equally, the human capacity for cruelty and stupidity.
Well put, Medusa. Y'know, eventually. ;)
Damn! Forgot my Christmas babypuke this year!
I'd have to agree with Stan. This is more of a mob-panic thing than a religious thing. This happens any time there's too many people in too small a space, all pressing forward, oblivious of what's happening ahead. Someone needs to organize this hajjapalooza better.
A close friend's father has made his first trip to Mecca this year. He called today. He was sooo happy for his pops.
PS, does anyone know a good way to prepare goat? I got some yesterday as part of his Eid sacrifice?
goat barbecues very well, but can be tough and dry - I'd brine it for an hour first, then barbecue it slowly
The potential for stupidity is directly related to the size of a group of people, regardless of whether they be religious or secular.
Sincerely,
An atheist enochlophobe.
och·lo·pho·bi·a Pronunciation Key (kl-fb-)
n.
An abnormal fear of crowds.
Since the last Hajj, the pillars have been replaced with wide walls allowing more pilgrims to participate and to protect others on the other side.
The stampede is just people in general being stoopit sheep, not the Moslems. Now, a religion that encourages thousands of people to stand in a circle and throw stones at a pillar in the middle...that's some fucked up shit. Funny, too.
Hm. I could have sworn there was an EN at the front.
I'd buy a new dictionary, but there's always too many people at the bookstore.
They died while stoning the devil?
*zips up trousers*
...the Saudi health minister has said...the stampede was caused by "unruly pilgrims, and a problem of luggage."
People, this has nothing to do with religion. It was a problem of luggage. QED. Investigation complete. Mystery solved. Move along. Your baggage will be arriving at carousel 9 on concourse C.
People looking for sense in these sorts of events are hereby advised to bring a lunch, because it's going to be a loooooooooong day.
You sound like someone who needs a good stoning. Infidel.
To all who would say "It wasn't religion, it was merely the crowds!" I'd say to you, what is religion?
Or maybe that's too inclusive, so lets look at this another way. How much beer is consumed at football games? How much weed is smoked at a Who concert? Both drugs I am fond of - both make me stupid. "Religion is the opiate of the masses"
I'm an informationalist. And I can't quite see this behavior taking place at OSCON.
However, I root for the Moslems. They're the underdogs, like the White Sox before last year's series. *puts on rally cap, chants "allahu akbar", excitedly refreshes english.aljazeera.net to see the latest score*
How much beer is consumed at football games? How much weed is smoked at a Who concert? Both drugs I am fond of - both make me stupid. "Religion is the opiate of the masses"
So... pot smokers at a Who concert are RELIGIOUS PEOPLE... because the pot MADE THEM STUPID... and anything STUPID must be RELIGIOUS! Dude, seriously... if that's what you've got in the way of reasoned, logical argument, it ain't much. I would suggest that you've religiously adopted the idea that religion is bad, and you're not interested in considering information to the contrary.
It seems that humans in groups larger than x are vulnerable to GROUPTHINK. many different types of events lead to these big masses, from Who concerts to Throw-rocks-at-Satan parties. I suppose the poorly illustrated point I have been trying to think of and trying to make in this thread is not that the stampedes occured in the first place, but that after years of this type of thing happening little of practical value has been done to address the cause of the problem (in regards to the hajj)
I think that after the Who stampede and a few other notable concert situations many venues changed their policies regarding ticketing/seating to minimize the possibility of such things.
The few changes that have been made to the entrance to this bridge/satan-stoning area seem to be inadequate to the challenge at hand.
I don't think religion=stoopid but I do reiterate that some religiouns seem to preach a dogma of the afterlife being more valued than life, which leads me to wonder at what motivations might dictate whether or not/to what degree to fix a problem like this (as opposed to kids getting smooshed at a concert)...just pondering.
>some religiouns seem to preach a dogma of the afterlife being more valued than life
Well, yeah, and there's good and bad to be found in that. But I'd guess an event like this is a simpler case of 'there were a lot of people there and the ones in the back wanted to be in the front'. Granted, you'd think the community's religious leaders would put out the word that 'the Almighty says if you're in the back, wait your goddam turn' or 'if you step on some guy's head you don't get into heaven' or words to that effect.
I went to a 'WOMAD' concert in Golden Gate Park once (it's that Peter Gabriel thing with the World Music hippies), and the density of the crowd was a bit scary. It was just a mass of people standing shoulder-to-shoulder, and nobody could really move except in a sort of Brownian way... It's not hard to imagine how events like these get out of control.
This isn't about religion, it's about crowd control. What they need is a couple hundred of these.
I wonder who has the stone-selling concession near the entrance, and do the stones come in little bags, or baskets?
And what happens to the stones after they hit the pillers? Do they ever bounce right off and clock someone nearby in the head?
Honestly, if people are devoted enough to make the Hajj, their god will probably take good care of them, and its not my concern. They believe its all the will of Allah, so, why should I go out of my way to say hey, install some turnstyles.
They deserve the religon they choose, and hey, they're in a better place, right?
and the density of the crowd was a bit scary
patsy.
(:
Bunch of morons were injured during the Eid al-Adha festival in Turkey this week as well. Why can't these people learn to use a knife right? I may be a little sick, but this stuff brings a smile to my face. I guess if I actually thought about I might not find it so amusing. But thinking is hard.
Brian: Please, please, please listen! I've got one or two things to say.
The Crowd: Tell us! Tell us both of them!
Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't need to follow me, You don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves! You're all individuals!
The Crowd: Yes! We're all individuals!
Brian: You're all different!
The Crowd: Yes, we are all different!
Man in crowd: I'm not...
The Crowd: Sssh!
And what happens to the stones after they hit the pillers? Do they ever bounce right off and clock someone nearby in the head?
That was my thought too. I wouldn't want to be standing at the front. And from where do they start throwing? Some of the older folks with weak arms might fall short which makes being at the front even more dicey.
They're actually quite small pieces of gravel. Like the size of a marble. If one hit you it'd probably annoy you more than anything. Symbolism and what-not.
*annoyed*
Who threw that?!
"You know, mom, sometimes you really piss me off."
(It's from a Jesus-intervenes-at-the-stoning joke...)
Way to ruin the image, petebest. It was way better when I thought they were lobbing watermelon-sized chunks of rock.
But, if they were big pieces of rock, someone might be injured or even killed!
Any more funny stuff about the dead people forthcoming? Because this is as funny as shit!
LOL.
Wolof, I guess we just don't get laffs out of a couple hundred ragheads trampled to death. Stoopit arabs! Ever hear of orderly procession?
The rags are to staunch the blood flow, premptively.
Also calling someone a raghead is offensive. Unless you were mocking the lGF crowd. In which was it is still pretty nasty.
Sometimes I have no idea what's going on.
There was a little graphic in today's paper listing the fatalities related to the haj over the past fifteen-ish years. One tent-city fire and about eight stampedes, all with human losses of about 200-300. There's got to be a better way, and if there is, why wasn't it done after the first trampling? It's ridiculous. What a waste of life.
tracicle, that was the whole feeling behind my attempts to understand this very sad event also. Why has so little been done to address a situation that has been proven again and again to be fatally dangerous?
cult to death...an ocassional death toll adds a juicy drama to ones religious fervor...
The first time something like this happens it's tragic. But from the BBC link:
1994: 270 killed in stampede
1998: At least 118 trampled to death
2001: 35 die in stampede
2003: 14 are crushed to death
2004: 251 trampled to death in stampede
Strange behavior isn't unique to this area of the world or this religion. We have plenty of somewhat similar (if not identical) absurdities every day in the part of the world I live in. I'll bet it's everywhere that superstition pops up its little wacky head. But people make choices in life, and sometimes we like to pretend as if they don't. Should I gather my resources and prepare for more weeping at the next demonstration of human irrationality? Or just laugh at its stubborn persistence?
Men go crazy in congregations; they only get better one by one.
"Hajjapallooza" is my new favorite word.
Being crushed/trampled to death has GOT to be one of the worst deaths I can think of.
I'd like to clarify that I don't think people being trampled to death is funny. I just think a religion with such a physical ritual as tossing rocks is pretty cool and badass. Bigger rocks would be even more badass. And I wish there was some way to avoid these deaths. The local police don't seem to be the way.
No matter how resolute my convictions, I would never throw myself into an untamed river of fanatics. I would prefer to sacrifice myself silently.
Sorry for the raghead comment. I am so sick of the generalizations.
kill, murder, and enslaveerect evergreen trees in their houses, and then let babies puke all over them for decoration. Moslems throw fucking rocks at big pillars. How much cooler is that. I totally would do this.