December 16, 2005

• The George Costanza: "It's not you, it's me."
• You need to outcrazy her.
• You tell her that to stay in a romantic relationship with her, you have to have certain feelings for her. You do not have those feelings. You do not know why, you just don't have those feelings for her. You don't have those feelings for most people. I have always thought that you just tell the person how it is: you do not have feelings for the person that are a prerequisite to dating that person. I know it sounds too easy, but I find it works fine. Remember -- if you give her any excuse, then she will latch onto that excuse and try to correct the problem, thereby making you want to date her again. So it is never a good idea to say you are too needy ("I will be less needy"), have different interests ("I will watch sports with you"), hang out with people I don't like ("I will stop hanging out with them"), etc, etc. Just tell her that you do not have the appropriate feelings for her. You thought you would, but you don't.
• Anyone who freaks out a little and is sure you're going to break up with them because they're crazy already knows. Just pick a reason, meet face to face and get on with the healing process. Alternately there's stepping out the back, making a new plan, don't be coy, etc.
• Be honest. I haven't had a lot of greatly successful relationships but I am still on excellent terms with all the girls/women I was honest and open with when we were separating.
• Three words: poor personal hygiene.
• Best dump I ever saw was a simple note. "Dear so and so. I'm cutting you loose. You're dead weight. Regards, X". Not that I recommend that here. Seriously, though, remember that honesty is overrated at times like these. Like bernockle said, she'll fight any reason you bring up (and, she may even be right about some of them). Go with the 'I just don't feel it', which can't be argued with. As for the manner, a lot of people don't like it, but I prefer the phone dump. It gives the dumpee the most control over the situation. It's private, she can lose her shit, or not, hide her losing her shit, or not, etc. And it works for the dumper that way as well. Plus, there's not that awkward part of having to get them out of your apartment or car or whatever. Email dumpings are to be avoided. They'll be forwarded to all her friends, and you'll be the subject of open mockery. Which isn't to say I haven't done it -- it was the most carefully crafted letter I've ever written. But most of all, keep your eye on the prize. Don't be distracted. Eye of the tiger, baby, eye of the tiger. Good luck.
• If any of you fuckers ever leave me I swear I'll kill myself or possible Chy.
• "possibly"
• "probably", in fact.
• People can sense when they are about to be left, and whether you admit it to yourself or not its still horrible. I don't know if you've been there or not. Makes you feel totally helpless, and oftentimes you'll try almost anything to fix it, even though you know theres nothing left to fix. Her saying shes crazy might be an unconcious last ditch effort for pity, and thus affection. If theres no chance at resurrecting your relationship, end it as quickly and cleanly as possible. Explain to her exactly what you're feeling, even mention that you were going to end it the other night, and tell her why you didn't. She needs to know everything. Otherwise every time youre nice to her a part of her will think it means youre coming back. Be kind, but leave no questions. This kind of "conversation" breakup sometimes takes a while. Dont rush it, but at the same time dont let it drag on longer than it needs to.
• Why don't I "take over" from you? You get out, I get hot rebound sexxx from Ms Heartbroken, Chy gets buried in an unmarked grave. Everyone's a winner.
• Bernockle is absolutely right about not giving "reasons" as to why you want to call it off. I'm ashamed to admit that as a much younger woman, I was one of those types that would cling to those reasons as hope for change and later reconciliation (never happened, obviously!) As for her worrying that you don't want to be with her because she is "crazy," that simply cannot be your problem. That's her own issue, not yours, so I would not let that be the delaying factor. Just tell her you don't have feelings for her in a romantic way and stick to it, period. As a woman who has been through a few breakups (on both ends), she'll come to appreciate how you handled it when she looks back on it in later years. I would hope.
• a problemmatic thing I have observed in relationships (of all sorts) is boundary transference stuff. what I mean is: its your "responsibility" to be honest, straightforward and as kind or at least neutral as you can be. it is her "responsibility" to understand or listen to what you are saying, if you see what I mean. like petebest said, she already knows this is in the cards, the "you think I'm crazy thing" is sort of a preemptive strike. all you can do is tell her the truth. she will accept it when she is ready, in the meanwhile she already has a crutch conveniently ready, and that part is not your responsibility. cling to my cold clinical advice thru your feelings of guilt and good luck!
• Just gra that bull by the horns and do it. It may be a horrible scene, but it'll be over in a couple of hours and then that's that. Be firm, give no hint that the relationship can be saved if it can't, and accept that this person will probably think you are a bastard. Get used to that. It's horrible, but you'll feel better for being straight.
• Oh, and quiddy - it's over. It's not me, it's you.
• Dear Loser, Welcome to Dumpsville. Population: you.
• Oh, and Captain? I've never forgiven you for breaking up with me over the phone in high school. That was really cold.
• In my country when you want to break up with a girl, you simply walk up to her and say, "I break with thee, I break with thee, I break with thee." And then you throw dog poop on her shoes.
• Whatever method you choose, remember, you have no control over how much crazier they might become over it. In fact, it's best to stand clear of the metaphorical blast radius. Really.
• > Be firm and do not, under any circumstances, meet up for *drinks* for at least six months.
• In my country when you want to break up with a girl, you simply walk up to her and say, "I break with thee, I break with thee, I break with thee." And then you throw dog poop on her shoes. And then, my brother and I go to the swinging singles club, and we look for the girls with the dog poop on their shoes!
• It's harder when you sense they're developing real feelings for you, but IMO that makes the break-up all the more urgent. Sometimes you have to be an asshole to do the right thing, and in this case it's probably better that you're thought of as an asshole.
• Yeah, don't use the "It's not you, it's me" thing. All girls have heard that way too much, and it's usually read as either "No, really, it is you. You suck" or "I can't be bothered to have a real conversation with you, so I'm dragging out this old cliche." Avoid the cliche especially if you think you may ever be interested in dating any of her friends or acquaintances, because using it will brand you as an ass with all of them. (Remember, she's a girl, and she *will* discuss this in tiny detail with all of her friends. This is what many of us do.)
• And for once, kit is right. You're going to he The Asshole no matter how it plays out, so there's no sense in trying to ward that off with a kinder, gentler Breakup Plan. And I repeat: Eye of the Tiger, baby.
• What petebest said. You may want to keep in mind that people often lie about why they want to break up. You can say one thing, and she & her friends will parse every single word of every single conversation you ever had and come up with the "real" reason. So, whatever you say, it may not be what she chooses to believe.
• Koko, I thought that in time, my feelings would change, but it just hasn't happened. It never clicked. And at this point in our lives, if this isn't going to produce something substantial, what are we doing here? Why stay in it if there's no future for us? We're only keeping each other from reaching what it is we're looking for. For me to keep you from realizing your full potential would be selfish of me, and I would never do that to you...
• Email is best, or instant message. This way she can print it up and read it over and over again.
• I'm not sure that I agree with the advice about breaking up on the phone. I was left on the phone after a 8-year relationship/engagement and it felt pretty bad that the person in question did not have the guts to do it in person. But YMMV.
• This is like taking of a band-aid. Just do it. In person, and without beating around the bush. Just like telling someone that they are fired. Do not let get blackmailed by the tears or intimidated when she starts throwing things.
• Keep it simple and short. The only reason worth giving is that it just doesn't feel right for you and that it never will. Ask her if she wants to be in a relationship with someone who desn't love her, or whether she'd rather be free to find someone who does love her. Then say sorry and leave. She'll probably hate you. Judging by what you said in your post she almost certainly will hate you. But there's nothing you can do about that. She's entitled to react the way she chooses. As soon as you end the relationship her reaction becomes none of your business. Unless she really is crazy and stalks you ...
• See, with the phone thing, everyone has to maintain a certain appearance. The dumper has to remain all serious and focussed, and the dumpee (may) feel obliged to not embarrass themselves by losing their shit. With the phone, you can release some of the tension of the situation by crying, making faces, rolling your eyes, whatever, and still maintain the image you want to present. Plus, it's private. A phone call lets everyone control how they want to conduct the conversation, rather than have circumstances dictate it to them. Mind you, after an eight-year relationship/engagement, buddy would certainly owe you more than a phone call. I say we ask quid what he prefers. He's been dumped plenty of times, right?
• Whatever you choose, just make sure that you do it. Staying with someone cause you're afraid of what they'll do if you don't sucks. Not that I would know anything about that. Sneak in her apartment while she's at work, take your toothbrush back and leave your keys on the table...that's how I got dumped... Keep in mind that it's easier to get over an asshole than it is to get over a nice guy.
• Kind of what roryk said: no getting together with her for "drinks", preferably ever again, if sex is a possibility. Experience taught me that this is a serious mistake with terrible repercussions.
• Breaking up is already hard on the person, so why not just go all out? Invite her out for dinner. As soon as she sits down, BAM! Punch her in the face. Get up. Run like hell.
• I would like to offer some advice as some people has from the point of view as the person being dumped. Alas, I have little experience being dumped, as it is difficult to be dumped by a corpse.
• loto: lol first, let me say, that 1 bottle of barleywine beer is not what you should have on an empty stomach. Unless what you want is buzzzzzzzed. (hic!) second, do not get drunk or stoned first. it just gives her (me) something to fume about. fucking coward couldn't even be present to deal with the human consequences. It feals cheap. Then again, as a tear-sopper friend told me, it is indirectly flattering as it shows that you "feel something" and want a layer of insulation when letting go. good luck. have something to do afterwards.
• You have to realize that you don't have any real control over what she decides is the reason why you are leaving her: she's going to believe what she wants to, particularly in the emotional furor of the actual breakup, so your primary concern should not be convincing her that it is this thing or that thing. If your goal is to minimize cruelty, then your primary strategy should be to do it as soon as possible and without equivocation. Right now she's obviously fishing for confirmation of what she already (accurately) senses, that you are getting ready to jettison her. Every time you deny her claims you are creating a false impression. You can tell yourself that you're being honest, i.e. you don't think she is crazy. But you're lying about the real crux of the issue in that you do want to break up with her. So do it now, do it in person (with vanishingly few exceptions, only true bastards and filthy cowards break up any other way), tell her that you aren't in love with her and have realized you never will be. Just simply deny anything she counters with. If she says it is because you're crazy, say I don't think you're crazy and leave it at that. Try to avoid being drawn out into any territory that suggests any possibility of hope. Just keep saying I just don't feel the way I know I would have to to be truly happy in a relationship, get out as soon as you can. You can't change the way she thinks about herself, it isn't your job to do so, and later this evening (if you have the guts) it will be none of your business.
• by yourself, I mean. like, getting drunk or stoned. allow me to reccomend barlywine beer. by the 6-pack.
• *realizes nanojath just called him a true bastard and filthy coward* *realizes that's an accurate statement of fact* *goes off in search of barlywine beer*
• Just do it already. And really, unless this is a long distance relationship, do it in person. It's so lame (and a total wuss cop out move) to do it over the phone or internets. [Funny story: I once dated a guy who broke up with me on the phone and when I told him the he could do was say it to my face, I spent a few hours in the park with him acting as his shrink as he dredged up all of this emotional shit in his life that made him cry. Fun!] If she tries to pull the crazy as a way to make you feel obliged to stay, be strong.
• OH -- and one more thing. DO NOT, for whatever reason, ask at the end of the dumping "so, are we cool?" World of pain, my friend. World. Of. Pain.
• have you tried slapping her around?
• And don't invoice her for expenses incurred during the relationship.
• Like anything- it's best to be a grown-up about it: do it directly, honestly, and face-to-face. The breakee is going to be pissed no matter what, but you'll probably feel better about yourself if you do it "right."
• I think the French have a word for it...menage a trois?
• Have wild sloppy sex with her at her place and wipe your dick on the curtains afterward... seriously, I've been in that situation, There is no easy way, and the shit WILL hit the fan...
• Bobsled, you still owe me a dry cleaning bill...
• And a new fan.
• Act like nothing has happened, then over the course of a long weekend, pack up all your stuff and move to Amsterdam. If you're of a mind, you can scatter a few clues about that may or may not lead people to believe you have either (a) been abducted by aliens, (b) you have joined the French Foriegn Legion, or (c) you are, as you told her when you first met, in fact working undercover for the CIA.
• Note: this will only work once, so make it count.
• Let her walk in on you in a massive orgy. One of two things will happen: 1) She'll be hurt, offended, and you'll never have to deal with her again. 2)She'll tear off her clothes and jump in, in which case she's a keeper. Also, you could just let quid show up naked at her door. Then she's guaranteed to hate you.
• Also understand that, over the next few weeks, there will be times where you regret breaking up with her, and that doing so was a big mistake. Do not give in to these moments of weakness. Stay the course, and they will pass.
• Stay the course. Do not give in to Weapons of Mass Seduction.
• Second the "man up" suggestions. Had a former fiancee break up with me via e-mail. Never in my life have I loathed a human being so much. It won't be pretty. And she'll want to be "friends" afterward. This is so she can have a watered-down version of your former relationship. I suggest you avoid this like the plague.
• /devil's advocate Been there, and looking back, it's really easy of us, the 'sane' ones, to wrinkle our noses at the first sign of pungency. Like in the old joke, when we're in the mood, 'oh she's and oddball, I love her', but when not, 'oh behave you crazy bitch'. Love and relationships mean giggles and hugs and hot monkey sex but also farts and coughs and body smell and adapting to a stranger's quirks and arriving to compromises. Unless the other person is doing an overnight 180 detour and smearing the walls with crap, deal with it, talk it out, COMMUNICATE for fuck's sake. Notes and phone calls are for wankers. Fear of scenes in public places? Bah, you haven't lived until a (former) loved one is crying while the entire resaturant is shooting daggers at you. Fear or physical harm? Deal with it. Take precautions. Report, document the situation. But don't be a sissy and let things develop by themselves, left things unsaid 'because it was implicit'. Speak up. Yeah, I'm very cranky today. Here's to the crazy ones. Oh sheez, I miss you.
• no, she'll want to "be friends" afterwards to create opportunities to deploy weapons of mass seduction and weedle [sic?] her way back into yr life. not that I would know from experience or anything...
• Look man, sometimes you've just got to let that axe fall. Don't be an asshole, don't be cruel, but DO be firm. And, for the love of God, don't start playing games after you do the deed. Nothing worse than a "grey area" break-up.
• As mentioned above
• As mentioned above Sorry, my HTML is teh suck tonight. But my wit...Well... It's kinda teh suck too. Damn.
• When it's over you should head on over to #mofirc. It's like tradition or something in these parts.
• However you choose to go about it, good luck. I hope you're able to make a clean break and that you'll both be the better for it. And don't break up with them in public. Especially not a bar. At their company party. When they're expecting to be fired in the next few days. And they're kind of neurotic to begin with. Not, uh, that I would.
• Make sure you have all your stuff first. It really sucks to have to get your stuff after the fact.
• Have mandyman call her and do it for you.
• *waves to sexyrobot* *pats flagpole on the shoulder* *smacks capt. on the back of the head*
• What bernockle says. Really the simplest and direct way.
• I just scanned the responses, so no cogent comment on them. However, in direct response to your question, that's my favorite bailout tactic. And not at all that this is the case, but when I need to bail from a relationship, the crazy gambit always works. It lets me off the hook because I am "finding myself" and it lets the other off the hook because they "feel bad and need to move on" -- all of which is always comfy for all parties. Plus, it leaves plenty of doors open.
• Print these thread comments. Sign it. Mail. Who would want to be involved with a goofball that posts a question like this on the internet, knows these are a bunch of a!@#$%oles, and still asks them for advice? Especially you three: Curly, Moe, and that little green freak**. **I keed because I love chu.
• Say goodbye walk away - don't be ther for support or friendship - it will suck ypu back in and if you really want to be free - these are the big excuses for not being so
• Take her to see Brokeback Mountain. After, tell her "that movie was so hot.. uh I mean great! That movie was so great!" Bring it up in conversation as often as you can. "Hey, this herbed salmon in lime you made is really good! Kinda reminds me of that scene where Ennis tells his wife he's going fishing..." Also, make sure she catches you staring at guys in cowboy boots, but deny it.
• (I thought we all agreed to call it 'Bareback Mountain'?)
• Bareback Mountin'
• Whatever you do, please don't talk about a cost-benefit analysis of the relationship. That would just be about one of the lamest things you could say to break up.
• any chance of an update from simian xy?
• What d'ya mean, 'for once'!? *Takes offense*
• Aaaaand NOW! *looks at stopwatch* Five days for kit to realize that he was slammed. Not even close to the record, I'm afraid...
• (Fuggin' preview...)
• Yeah, well, I've been busy, see? *Remembers to preview*
• Um, yeah. See, my brain is so ginourmous, it can't be bothered to keep track of petty details like previewing. My brain is best used for Grand Schemes, figuring out the Big Picture. For me to spend my time working on minor, irrelevant points of order is a waste of my supreme talents. *throws cape over shoulder indignantly* *looks over shoulder to see if they bought it*
• Heh. Check out the Mekon over there! *Doesn't buy it, not one little bit, oh no.*
• *coughvirgincough*
• I'm saving my precious gift, so what?
• This all reminds me of the time I went to my then-girlfriends place on a Sunday afternoon, to do the honourable thing and break up with her in person. She was so pleased, because I had apparently never turned up out of the blue like that before. So romantic! Ouch.
• That reminds me of the fact that I am a sad, lonely loser who will die suddenly at home one day and be eaten by ferrets.
• Quid, even the ferrets will refuse to scavange the tainted meat from your worthless bones. But HEY! Have a good Christmas there, guy!
• Don't worry though. The locusts will find you delicious and filling. An entire generation will hatch from you. Bringing new life into the world. Isn't that what Christmas is really about?
• The cute, single girl next door will wonder what that smell is, and come over to investigate. She will see the rotting, half eaten corpse on the floor and think, "it is too bad he isn't alive, because I certainly would have been his girlfriend!" Oh the tragedy! Oh the irony! Oh the noxious gas and the seepage!
• Luckily, Kit - 'Loverman' - Fisto is there to provide comfort, romatic candle-lit meals and sweet, sweet lovin' to the cute single girl from next door. So it's not all bad.
• "it is too bad he isn't alive, because I certainly would have been his girlfriend!" ... cute girl takes out cigarette, strikes lighter, explodes in flameball of quid's emissions.
• Until mrs. kitfisto brains you with a tire iron.
• oops, kit catches fire too...
• Oh, how sweet it is that you joke and giggle and chortle with glee unbridled at the thought of my disgusting putrefaction. How your sides must ache with resounding laugh-noises - how moist your ankles must be, having been watered by endless tears of mirth. Permit me, I beg, to prolong your rapturous festival of chuckles by humbly suggesting that you contemplate voilating my corpse in ways that are amusing to you, you fucking harpies.
• *toasts marshmallows over still-smouldering corpse*
• *Lays some sweet, sweet kitfisto lovin' on the quodninc's cooling cadaver.*
• *pokes quidcorpse with stick, accidentally ruptures juice pocket, jumps back to avoid scalding stream* *plugs nose, retreats* Fuck, what's that SMELL? It -- it smells like rancid akvavit and baby powder -- what the fuck was he doing?
• *gets out dippin' biscuits*
• mmmm I smell bar-B-kyew!!!
• Must it always disintegrate into buggery and/or abusing quidnunc's quorpse? *sighs and picks up her corpse-pokin' stick*
• MonkeyFilter: Must it always disintegrate into buggery and/or abusing quidnunc's quorpse?
• Ah, 'tis the season for buggery and corpse abuse. Let us sing carols as we warm ourselves around the festive Yule Quid. **tosses hanks of green and red tinsel at quid's lifeless hulk**
• those ruptured juice pockets add a festive crackling sound to the yule fire! /opens another bag o' marshmallows...
• Oooh QuidSmores! Anyone know some good corpse carols?
• Oh, you didn't just ask that. Tell me you didn't just ask that. Because if anybody on earth knows corpse carols, it's going to be this bunch. *hides*
• Quidnunc the Foul-Stenched Corpse Had a most peculiar smell And if you ever huffed it You would also feel unwell All of the other corpses Used to rot and call him names They never let dead Quidnunc Purify with pyre flames
• escaping gas, it's a-whistlin', quidnunc's corpse, it's so glistenin', the putrescent flesh, ugh such a mess, stumbling upon the kid's cold remains.
• beauty one roryk! Brandies all 'round!
• A corpse is a corpse, Of corpse, of corpse, And no one can bugger a corpse, of corpse, Unless the corpse in question Is the famous Quidnunc Kid! Tonight on TV Land!
• Chestnuts roasting on a bloated corpse Big rats nipping at his nose Quid corpse carols, being sung 'neath the stench And folks dressed up like kitfistoes...
• )))!
• In his bleak midwinter, quidnunc made a moan, His thing was hard as iron, But his heart was made of stone, So crestfallen, always a 'no', 'No' on 'No', In his bleak midwinter, A woman to never know. All these girls would not hold him, Nor porn his sustain, Friend and foe all flee away, When faced with quidnunc's pain. In his bleak midwinter, His barren flat sufficed, for the ferrets him to eat. Jesus Christ!
• his = him or, porn his = his porn
• jingle bells, quid's corpse smells, the ferrets are scared away, oh how strange it is to watch, his cadaver decay.
• Corpse Carols? You fucking froot loops. You disgusting bastards. *walks over, inserts penis into freshly rotted hole in quidnunc's flesh, gleefully smiles* line? what line?
• Psst! It's "God bless us, everyone!"
• can something be "freshly" rotted???
• I notice quid is awfully quiet in this thread. Oh, wait. He's dead.
• That's one way to break up with someone.
• Hey, it's not too late to profit off quid's corpse! Guess he could make a passable zombie... wonder how much the rent of a Santa suit will cost.
• You know, this post went to hell in a real BIG way. YEAH!!!!
• And I can rest on my moral high ground knowing that I took no part in it.
• I'd feel bad for quid if I wasn't so busy snorting wine out my nose. Also, I've met him.
• *decorates corpse with christmas lights, present* FESTIVE!
• To get this slightly back on topic. Do NOT be wishy-washy about it. Don't tell them her miss her or want to be able to hang out with her as friends immediately afterward. It only serves to both give her hope of a reconciliation and alternately torment her. My ex broke up with me just before Thanksgiving this year and it was absolute torture to talk to her or try to be around her. I was and still am deeply in love with her and well, I would've been a whole lot better off if she just made a hard clean break straight off the bat rather than doing what she did and still trying to be around me immediately afterward.
• *HUGS* That was an official hug from the President of the Surlyboi Fan Club.
• Thanks Neddy. Appreciate the card too. I'll have to send you something in the near future.
• surli - I'm glad to see you back here, but sad about the circumstances. What's worked for me when dumped was to focus on the good memories, and be grateful that I got to experience them. And didn't blame myself because I didn't fit into the other's needs. Easy to say, I'm sure.
• I'm sorry mr. kid for abusing your decaying flesh. Merry Christmas from Oregon :)
• AS YOU SHOULD BE! Ian, that was just disgusting the way you abused him. It's one thing to put decorative lights on on Kid's corpse, but then to call him names like that--How could you!?!?? Fes-tive indeed. How would you like it if I called you Fes-breath or Fes-butt, huh? Some times you've just got to exercise a little good taste in what you call people.
• surly, great to hear from you, even under less-than-ideal circumstances. come in and warm yourself by the yule-tide pyre of quid's remains and meditate upon the array of new opportunities and experiences the year will bring. /banana-flavored hugs!!
• So tell us, Simian XY, did you kick her to the curb at Christmastime? Will you be single for New Year's, or will you be making all sorts of false promises to the crazy chick? Did you keep the gifts? Inquisitive monkeys want to know: what happened?
• Life is sometimes a soap opera. Today's another day. *sits in front of the screen expectantly*
• He's probably busy debating whether he wants to take advice from a bunch of crazy corpse-abusing monkeys...
• Hey -- that's not fair. We only started abusing quidcorpses after we gave our advice. Some of which was dismissed out of hand. Not that I'm bitter.
• Allright, I'm bitter. So I need to know how it worked out in case I need to say "I told you so." I'm a shallow, petty man, I know. But I'm cool with that.
• Anonymous is so far silent, and of course may remain so as s/he sees fit, but I'll update if there's any word, natch. Consider it the middleclasstool Satisfaction Guarantee.
• shouldn't that be the        Simian XY Satisfaction Guaranty™
• Maybe in Pinkoland, Commie.
• in soviet pinkoland, simian xy exposes you
• Thank you, but I prefer to expose myself.
• yes, and you are..? and simian xy is..? quid erat deconstructum
• quid erat deconstructum Leave my goddam erat out of this. And get off my corpse.
• But the corpse is all we have now. Unless you're advocating life after death. Foul shade! Get thee hence!
• Isn't that Simian XY: Ribbed for Her Pleasure?
• Rubbing will suffice if done gently and artfully. /these monkets can get so, well, crude, when festicating and fornifying. The kid never left my orbit, and I praise his courageous reappearance wherein his true qualities had been so maligned. *scratches head* /those qualities being, um, erh, ...