December 08, 2005

• Probably complaining about Paul McCartney being so lame.
• Agreed! (with laughter). An intentional demi-pun Chyren?
• Oh! Yeah, I forgot he had a one-legged missus, poor woman. No, that was just a faux pas on my part!
• I remember hearing this news walking home from school. At the time, I felt it had a bigger resonance than Elvis dying (which I also remember vividly). I haven't changed my mind since. I pass his old house everyday. Who wants to touch my hem?
• I always thought Lennon was overrated. The true genius was obviously Ringo.
• I remember hearing the news on the radio that morning. 10 years old, I was. Gutted. Still am. miss him. miss him. miss him.
• I've got "The Beatles One" cranking right now, choking up a little. I read a quote recently from someone who knew him, saying that John was up there having a big celestial laugh at all the fuss we make over him. Oddly enough, that's one of the things we loved best about him.
• Not my favorite Beatle musically, but I greatly respect anyone who tries to use his enormous celebrity status to try to do some good in the world at the expense of his wealth and fame.
• What would he have done? Make some so-so records, make a couple of good ones, maybe have become a Travelling Wilbury or something quasi-retro/revival at some point, record a single with U2, protest here and there -- generally be far less remarkable than his legend. Not that I would love him any less.
• (But my fav Beatle will remain Ringo -- just for the way he always looked so out of place, and lucky to be along for the ride.)
• He would have had a breakdown at the amount of money by the late 80's that people would have thrown at the four of them to get back together.
• "Not my favorite Beatle musically..." Hmm.. John Lennon *was* the Beatles. Without him McCartney would be a cabaret musician or jingle writer, George a twangy-guitar backing muso at working men's clubs, and Ringo at Butlins. There are probably less than 10 decent Beatles songs that weren't either from Lennon's pen, sung by, or influenced by him. I cannot actually think of a song right now that McCartney wrote with Wings that wasn't shit; although he did write quite a few catchy tunes, the structure and lyrics were always pap. Mull of Kintyre? If Lennon had lived, he definitely wouldn't have done something lame like the travelling wilburys. And money wouldn't have made him crash; he was as rich as Croesus anyway. He would have gone on to be as cynical and bitter, probably as wrong-headed, as he always was. And he would have been a voice of rebellion, even now. But he would be as revolutionary. John never lacked the creativity and urge to experiment. And he had courage. He was flawed, badly so, but he didn't lack the energy to confront himself, and try things others didn't dare. He likely would have done the Beatles reunion for the anniversary, cos he would have been over the bullshit by then, and I think it would have been awesome better than that Free as a Bird tosh.
• A Spaniard in the Works and In His Own Write had a profound influence on my concept of language as a young person. I like to think he would have done more non-musical writing.
• If I take the best ten solo songs by McCartney, Lennon, and Harrison, then I like Lennon's best ten the least. I will grant you that if I take their ten worst songs (best and worst being obviously subjective) that I would find Lennon's worst to be far superior to the worst of the other two.
• Well, now I'm just confused, bernie.
• Having grown up in a somewhat pseudo-socialist family and with several older siblings who were Beatles fanatics, I managed to spend several confused years in my youth struggling with the misconception that Lenin and Lennon were the same person. Obviously at the time I really didn't know much about either, but what little I could piece together about this 'guy' from listening to the adult conversations around me led me down some strange pathways about the apparent involvement of the Russian Revolution in the 60s English music scene. 'Back in the USSR' didn't help at all with this misconception, either. But, then, I was a very literal kid. I remember being disgusted when I found out that the Doobie Brothers weren't related. And then, huh, I found out what a 'doobie' was...
• I found out about Lennon's death when the Monday Night Football announcers broke the story in the middle of the game that night. The next morning it still didn't seem real, and I remember several of my (high school) teachers essentially cancel their classes just to talk about it with us students. I'm dissapointed that the worm who shot him is mentioned by name in the FPP. He has stated in subsequent interviews that he did it to become famous, so I don't like giving him what he wanted. May his name never be uttered again.
• Oh! Yeah, I forgot he had a one-legged missus, poor woman. No, that was just a faux pas on my part! 'ere! 'oo's got a faux paw, then?
• I had a fax pause the other day; turned out to be a paper jam.
• Huh. You po' fu'.
• Dang, I have to start getting up earlier. I saved these tho: The Beatles Changed Everything and a random conspiracy site. Chy I coulda told you you were a John guy like day 1. (Me too, but) Give it up for Boogaloo now, the man made the Beatles what they were. John would have exploded, sure, but nowhere near the legacy they left without Mac. Best bass player ever, incredible sense of melody and counterpoint, experimental - got John into tape loops etc. C'mon now, fair's fair. I always thought Lennon was overrated. The true genius was obviously Ringo. There's a real case to be made there - depending on your definition of genius that is. Who else could have put up with two raging assholes and a freak for 10 years through the biggest band in history? Who else could take their shit and ride it out that long? Go Ringo! Plus he missed a beat exactly once in their entire recording career. ONCE. fuckin' awesome. I GOT BLISTERS ON ME FINGERS!!!
• Best bass player ever That's stretching it a bit...top 5, maybe.
• I couldn't agree with you more, Chy. Miss him, miss him, miss him.
• And there you have it, Ladies and Gentlemen, high praise for Ringo coming from petebest...
• /nods
• (@ Space Kitty)
• And there you have it, Ladies and Gentlemen, high praise for Ringo coming from petebest... Arrr, Cap'n, ye beat me to the irony! Anyone see the recent PBS documentary on Pete Best? Interesting stuff.
• Well, now I'm just confused, bernie. -- Chyren I am just not good at being clear sometimes. I was agreeing with you that McCartney has put out some things that are much crappier than anything Lennon has done. However, I think that McCartney's best songs (and I am talking about solo stuff) are better than Lennon's best songs.
• Uh, bernockle, I was testing your theory in my mind, and I found I couldn't even name a good McCartney song. I got stuck on Ebony and Ivory and Mull of Kintyre, and then nuthin. Oh! Oh! Live and Let Die! OK, that makes one... Sorry, but I can only agree with half your theory, that McCartney's worst is far worse than Lennon's worst. (I'll keep working at it, though.)
• John wasn't my favourite, but he wasn't my unfavourite, and the world became a lesser place without him, in my mind. The Beatles would not be the Beatles without each of those four, and I have tons of respect for what else John did with his life beside. But GO RINGO FANS!
• This Salon article (daypass req.) was good too. Rememberances of John by pretty much everyone. Okay 25 people. Also Best of the Beatles is good if you're more than an average Beatles fan. If you read Goldman's book (out of morbid curiosity, say) you read about a mugging that John and I committed in Hamburg where supposedly John said he killed the man. This documentary sheds a different light on it. I look pretty good for the age eh? >Best bass player ever That's stretching it a bit...top 5, maybe. posted by rocket88 at 04:08PM UTC on December 08, 2005 Well, "best" is a scientific, objective term and I am most definitely right in this matter, but I'd be interested to see your top 5 anyway . . . And Capt., what about Jet or Maybe I'm Amazed? I like Nineteen Hundred and Eighty Five on a rainy day . . And after (the incomparable) Plastic Ono Band, John really had a lull there.
• Maybe I'm Amazed(McCartney) That Would Be Something (McCartney) Band on the Run Just Another Day Let Me Roll It Coming Up Ballroom Dancing (Tug of War) Wanderlust (Tug of War) Tug of War (guess) My Brave Face (Flowers in the Dirt) That Day Is Done (Flowers in the Dirt) Mistress and Maid (Off the Ground) The Lovers That Never Were (Off the Ground) Those are some to consider for McCartney's best ten. Commence the downloading and ready yourselves for attack.
• Mother Working Class Hero God Instant Karma! Woman Whatever Gets You Thru The Night I'm Steppin Out Cleanup Time Happy Xmas (War is Over) Isolation In no particular order, I guess. They're very eclectic given they're all solo Lennon.
• I certainly will not allow their Christmas songs to engage in a duel.
• I'd be interested to see your top 5 anyway . . . Off the top of my head, and in no particular order, I'd say Chris Squire, John Entwistle, Flea, Jack Bruce, and McCartney. Geddy Lee probably deserves a spot too, so I'll make it a top 6. McCartney was probably the best musician in the group, as none of them were particularly gifted players. His songs were also the most accessible. Lennon's contribution was as a visionary...pushing the boundaries of song styling in uncharted directions, and influencing countless others to do the same. Harrison wrote some of my all-time favourite Beatles numbers, but didn't hit his stride until Abbey Road, and by then it was all over.
• I've had this conversation with friends before and my opinion always ends up as Capt. Renault's, right down to the Traveling Wilburys, as much as I wish otherwise. Also, he would've had that mid-80s mullet that all those "classic rock" musicians in their 40s did at that time. Ewwwww. But I believe he would have been involved in politics somehow too. In what capacity or in what country, I don't know. Either that, or he might have gone into happy seclusion/retirement.
• Have those who dis the Traveling Wilburys heard "Tweeter and the Monkey Man" where Dylan does a parody of Bruce Springsteen?
• (posted to the blue by klangklangston) Saying the Unthinkable by Lester Bangs. "You always wonder how you will react to these things, but I can't say I was all that surprised when NBC broke into "The Tonight Show" to say that John Lennon was dead. I always thought that he would be the first of the Beatles to die, because he was always the one who lived the most on the existential edge, whether by diving knees-first into left-wing adventurism or by just shutting up for five years when he decided he really didn't have anything much to say; but I had always figured it would be by his own hand. That he was merely the latest celebrity to be gunned down by a probable psychotic only underscores the banality surrounding his death. Look: I don't think I'm insensitive or a curmudgeon. In 1965 John Lennon was one of the most important people in the world. It's just that today I feel deeply alienated from rock 'n' roll and what it has meant or could mean, alienated from my fellow men and women and their dreams or aspirations. I don't know what is more pathetic, the people of my generation who refuse to let their 1960s adolescence die a natural death, or the younger ones who will snatch and gobble any shred, any scrap of a dream that someone declared over ten years ago. Perhaps the younger ones are sadder, because at least my peers may have some nostalgic memory of the long-cold embers they're kneeling to blow upon, whereas the kids who have to make do with things like the _Beatlemania_ show are being sold a bill of goods. I can't mourn John Lennon. I didn't know the guy. But I do know that when all is said and done, that's all he was--a guy. The refusal of his fans to ever let him just be that was finally almost as lethal as his "assassin" (and please, let's have no more talk of this being a "political" killing, and don't call him a "rock 'n' roll martyr"). Did you watch the TV specials on Tuesday night? Did you see all those people standing in the street in front of the Dakota apartment where Lennon lived singing "Hey Jude"? What do you think the _real_--cynical, sneeringly sarcastic, witheringly witty and iconoclastic--John Lennon would have said about that?
• (cont'd) John Lennon at his best despised cheap sentiment and had to learn the hard way that once you've made your mark on history those who can't will be so grateful they'll turn it into a cage for you. Those who choose to falsify their memories--to pine for a neverland 1960s that never really happened _that_ way in the first place--insult the retroactive Eden they enshrine. So in this time of gut-curdling sanctimonies about ultimate icons, I hope you will bear with my own pontifications long enough to let me say that the Beatles were certainly far more than a group of four talented musicians who might even have been the best of their generation. The Beatles were most of all a moment. But their generation was not the only generation in history, and to keep turning the gutten lantern of those dreams this way and that in hopes the flame will somehow flicker up again in the eighties is as futile a pursuit as trying to turn Lennon's lyrics into poetry. It is for that moment--not for John Lennon the man---that you are mourning, if you are mourning. Ultimately you are mourning for yourself. Remember that other guy, the old friend of theirs, who once said, "Don't follow leaders"? Well, he was right. But the very people who took those words and made them into banners were violating the slogan they carried. And their still doing it today. The Beatles did lead but they led with a wink. They may have been more popular than Jesus, but I don't think they wanted to be the world's religion. That would have cheapened and rendered tawdry what was special and wonderful about them. John Lennon didn't want that, or he wouldn't have retired for the last half of the seventies. What happened Monday night was only the most extreme extension of all the forces that led him to do so in the first place. In some of this last interviews before he died, he said, "What I realized during the five years away was that when I said the dream is over, I had made the physical break from the Beatles, but mentally there is still this big thing on my back about what people expected of me." And: "We were the hip ones of the sixties. But the world is not like the sixties. The whole world has changed." And: "Produce your own dream. It's quite possible to do anything...the unknown is what it is. And to be frightened of it is what sends everybody scurrying around chasing dreams, illusions." Good-bye, baby, and amen." -Los Angeles _Times_, 11 December 1980
• rocket88, howabout Jaco Pastorius, James Jamerson, Bootsy Collins, Pino Palladino, and . . yeah the ones you named. (Hilariously, check out this poll ) But Paul paved the way for a lot of those guys by bringing melody or at least counterpoint to electric bass. By continuously inventing lines from "Michelle" to "Come Together" that were massively influential. Geddy Lee would be nowhere without Paul. (And have you noticed the similarity between Flea's "Give It Away" line with "Come Together"? hah? Hah? Okay then.) McCartney was probably the best musician in the group, as none of them were particularly gifted players. I disagree about the gifted part by pointing out Ringo (again). Absolutely rock-solid playing that made a pocket the lads could experiment in or rock out with. Seriously overshadowedlooked as a musician. As for myself, my style is more in line with the smash-your-face punk drummers.
• Bernockle, I'm sorry to say I'm not familliar with any of them. Aside from 'Band on the Run', which I know from spending too many hours at the orthodontist. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I don't have a real familliarity with McCartney as I do Lennon. What the reason for that is, idunno. But you're spot on about Tweeter and the Monkey Man.
• Here's to his music. That's what counts, that's what will endure. /toasts
• Pete: All good players, for sure. Jamerson and Bootsy would be on my top ten. Jaco is probably #1 overall, but I was trying to stay within the rock genre. I'd agree that Ringo was solid, but the material never challenged him, or he never challenged it. It was all straight-ahead 4/4 stuff...maybe a shuffle on the odd track. The most non-standard rhythm he did was "Tomorrow Never Knows", and it was a direct lift of his own riff on "Ticket To Ride". He just doesn't stand out to me as a 'great' drummer.
• I think it's one of those "makes it look easy" things. Tone, consistency, conservative playing - it's a thing of beauty. The drummer for AC/DC has it too, probably a Ringo fan as a kid.
• WOXY.com is playing a lot of John Lennon and Beatles songs today. Good stuff.
• As usual, I love petebest in these Beatles threads. Exactly how I feel about Ringo, and it's a good defense of drummers in general - I find the ones about who people go "oh yeah, he rocks!" are showy and flashy and often lack technical ability; as far as drummers go, I'm more impressed by someone like Ringo, who would deliver every time, and well. And in that consistency I found lots of creativity, but that does depend on viewpoint, I admit.
• As usual, I love petebest in these Beatles threads. Exactly how I feel about Ringo, and it's a good defense of drummers in general - I find the ones about who people go "oh yeah, he rocks!" are showy and flashy and often lack technical ability; as far as drummers go, I'm more impressed by someone like Ringo, who would deliver every time, and well. And in that consistency I found lots of creativity, but that does depend on viewpoint, I admit.
• Acid.
• A fun thing to do is to listen to "Back in the USSR" and think about Paul playing drums (which he was). They were fighting a lot and Paul figured "Hell I'll just do it myself" but they didn't say anything to Ringo, so he listens to the playback later and instantly knows he's been usurped. Most people can't hear drums like that, to pick out the subtleties (and I think that story was news to me for that reason - I started thinking about the "sound" of drums anyway) One of the Pete Best stories on "Best of the Beatles" was that Paul was playing guitar, bass, trumpet, piano, and drums all by the age of 16.
• top 5 bass players in rock: 1. John Entwistle 2. John Entwistle 3. John Entwistle 4. John Paul Jones 5. John Entwistle
• John Paul Jones! Good call.
• if not for his bass playing, then for the clasic rock story behind the song "Royal Orleans"
• .
• Anybody who has ever played in a rock band knows that your band is as good as your drummer. Either the Beatles as a live band are way overrated or (my contention) Ringo as a drummer is way underrated. And Lennon was not, all by himself, The Beatles. Their best work came from a great blend of talents and personalities. Plastic Ono Band is great, but Lennon's got some embarassing shit in his solo catalog too.
• And Entwistle was a more gymnastic bassist than McCartney, but McCartney is still the more musical. One of the few Beatles songs I can barely stand is 'Something', but I heard that a while ago and tuned everything and just followed the bassline- it's really something...
• One of the few Beatles songs I can barely stand is... As much as a statement like that limits your credibility, I agree that 'Something' has a good bass line, as does 'Don't Let Me Down'. Also, we really can't discuss the musical aspects of Beatles songs without acknowledging George Martin's contributions, which were huge.
• George is not getting enough support in this thread! (Harrison, I mean.)
• So, petebest, you'd say Ringo is a better rock drummer than Keith Moon or John Bonham were? /argumentative classic rock-loving geezer
• I dont think pete said that and I hope not. I think Ringo is a fine drummer, you can hear it on the "White" album. On the early records, he does what every other pop/rock drummer did at the time- keeps the beat and doesnt call attention to himself. Then "My generation" and "The kids are alright" came out and everything changed. Moon invented what we know as "rock drumming" and to premptively respond to the inevitable yes he could keep a beat when he wanted to and no wasnt particulary "sloppy" (when halfway sober)
• Holy shit. I remember this day in my dorm room. It wasn't nearly the shock of JFK's death. But it was stunning. I had no words. And then I partied. In his honor.
• I'm going bowling tonight. Might as well make it "in his honor."
• umpah umpah stick it up your jumper
• >As much as a statement like that limits your credibility, I agree that 'Something' has a good bass line, as does 'Don't Let Me Down'. Whoops- to clarify- I didn't mean to say I thought 'Something' was a bad song. The reason I can barely stand it is because a girlfriend in high school played it incessantly- I'm waaaay overexposed to that one.
• >>to premptively respond to the inevitable yes he could keep a beat when he wanted to and no wasnt particulary "sloppy" *Pete Townshend* complained about Moon not being able to keep time particularly well, or play in any signature other than 4/4. Moon had an ideosyncratic, wonderfully impressive thing that he did, so asking whether he was a good timekeeper is like asking whether Picasso was a good realistic draftsman (he was, of course, but that's neither here nor there). But Moon has the reputation he deserves, whereas Ringo is generally regarded as the guy who lucked into being the Beatles' drummer when anybody would have done.
• sorry, a late entry. I clearly remember sitting in my dorm room, hearing the news over the radio. Computers weren't a widespread option. My roomnie was out partying, but I was glued to the TV reports. I didn't even like the Beatles or Lennon for that matter. I was just sad, in a way I didn't quite understand.
• *Pete Townshend* complained about Moon not being able to keep time particularly well Pete is my hero but over the years he has complained about just about everything and has been known to belittle Keith and his legacy in one breath and then praise him as the best drummer in the world in the next. The truth is that no one in The Who kept time very well. On "Tommy" the worst timekeeping of all is on "Tommy Can You hear me?" a track which doesn't even FEATURE drums!
• For the life of me, can't recall where I was or what was doing when first hearing of the murder. Ah, old age. The one I remember is the newsflash of Elvis' death. Playing with a friend, showing off my brand-new LED wristwatch. We heard the news on TV, she ran home since her mother was a huge Elvis fan.
• I remember being in the meat section of the goricery store with my Mom when the news of Elvis's death came over the radio. It's my earliest memory, I think. I have a very vivid recollection of the pattern in the green floor tiles, and asking my mother who Elvis was.
• >Pete is my hero but over the years he has complained about just about everything Heh... point taken.
• I can't help but think that the world would be somewhere between slightly, vaguely, and incredibly different if John Lennon were alive today. People took him seriously more so because of his public embarassments. People love Paul, but they don't take him that seriously. If John had been in NYC on Sept 11 - ??
• John would`nt have been assassinated if he had`nt gone to the Watergate hearings. That's when this NWO we are in started being planned out. Bush sr. leading up to that point, was head of CIA, Reagen/Bush administration had just been elected, btw, which was due in part to the Iran hostage release being stalled until after the election, to assure President Carters defeat. Yoko and Lennon were getting ready to do a show to benefit the plight of migrant farmworkers, which would have possibly devastated the US agriculture scamopoly. I`ll say it, George Herbert Walker Bush had John Lennon assassinated.
• Thank You, and Come Again! /Apu
• The Beatles Now Today there is no one musical group or soloist capable of commanding the attention paid to John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison, and Ringo Starr between 1964, when they first appeared on The Ed Sullivan Show, and 1970, when McCartney announced that the group was disbanding. the Beatles were the first rock-and-roll musicians to be written about as musicians. But between the late 60’s, when rock became the lingua franca of the baby boomers, and the late 90’s, when the disintegration of the common culture brought its stylistic hegemony to an end, the best rock groups had much to offer the serious music lover. Without the Beatles, this might well not have been the case. Neither virtuoso instrumentalists nor pure songwriters, they instead explored the possibilities of the hybrid art of the record album as art object more successfully than any other popular musicians of their generation. For this—and for the beauty of their best music—they will be remembered.
• FBI releases last 10 pages of Lennon files Author wins his 25 year legal war to have the papers relased by the FBI. So what's in them? What's in the papers that was so explosive the FBI claimed national security protection for them for over 20 years? Nothin'.
• Apropos of nothing, I saw Ringo Starr today (from a distance). He's apparently putting out a new album in May. Too bad Lennon and Harrison were cremated, or we might have been able to clone them in the future for a Beatles reunion. On second thought, maybe that is a good argument for cremation.
• I'm sure there are plenty of aging fangirls out there with skin and hair samples saved.
• G.W. Bush covers John Lennon's Christmas classic: Happy Xmas / War is over