February 19, 2004

Papers Please Meet Dudley Hiibel. He's a 59 year old cowboy who owns a small ranch outside of Winnemucca, Nevada. He lives a simple life, but he's his own man. You probably never would have heard of Dudley Hiibel if it weren't for his belief in the U.S. Constitution. One balmy May evening back in 2000, Dudley was standing around minding his own business when all of a sudden, a policeman pulled-up and demanded that Dudley produce his ID. Dudley, having done nothing wrong, declined. He was arrested and charged with "failure to cooperate" for refusing to show ID on demand. And it's all on video. On the 22nd of March 2004, the U.S. Supreme Court will decide whether Dudley and the rest of us live in a free society, or in a country where we must show "the papers" whenever a cop demands them.

I found this really interesting in this time when civil liberties are tromped on in the name of security.

posted by Shep 20 years ago
  • As a non-citizen this is really irrelevant, but I was legally required to carry my passport at all times while living in the US. (I didn't, obviously -- my ability to lose things is well-developed.) In NZ, you must be able to produce your driver's license when asked or receive a $75 fine. I haven't tested that, but I assume it's only when you are suspected of doing something illegal while driving. Which is fair enough. This case sounds like small-town cop with too much time on his hands and a major dose of power-trippin'.
  • tracicle: The driver's license bit is a blanket rule that you must always have your drivers license when driving; it's now illegal to drive without actually carrying the license. Other than that, we can't be forced to give ID, although we must identify ourselves if a police officer asks who we are.
  • according to other sites i read yesterday (but can't link to because i found them via the currently downed mefi) the cops were responding to a domestic disturbance call, which the neighbors had phoned in. apparently he and his daughter had been loudly fighting outdoors, so it's not like they'd truly been standing around doing nothing. then he apparently got overly belligerent and started acting a little nuts hysterically telling the cops to cuff him and take him away... i dunno, i just think it's too bad there isn't a better case for them to be taking to the supreme court.
  • Rodgerd - I never knew that I had to identify myself to police -- is this a new thing? Other than being pulled over for traffic violations (where you have to produce your ID), I've never been asked. I wonder if they could take a joke if I responded by saying that my name was Dr. Zaius.
  • They had a really good discussion about this over at MeFi. Someone called the cops because there was a domestic disturbance (as Tracy said). There was a video where he was acting like a total butthole and actually impeding the investigation. What I'm surprised about is why this made it all the way to the supreme court. I think the reason people have such a hard time with the idea of randomly letting a cop know who we are, is that we don't have faith that they'll act appropriately. I wish more time and effort was spent to create trust in the police force. I for one have only had one good interacrtion with a cop. The rest enjoyed screwing with me. I was once at a party where a cop was telling stories for over an hour with the theme "my favorite part of this job is screwing with people".
  • Link to video and a wealth of information (amicus briefs, Nevada laws, etc).
  • jim_t: That would probably depend on the officer, I imagine - incidentally, the "we" in that refers to people in New Zealand. Elsewhere, YMMW.
  • In Britain, as far as I know, if a policeman asks to see your drivers licence, you have about 5 days to produce it (might be less), but you never have to carry it with you, even if you are driving. I never carry mine, at least. /random irrelevant comment
  • Kimberley: The bit that seems oddest is the police tried to get him for not presenting ID. If they were genuinely concerned about the alleged domestic violence (which, according to K5 discussion & links, turned out to the the woman assaulting the man, for which she wasn't arrested), they could have arrested him for that. For that matter, there are usually a plethora of obstruction type charges he could probably have been grabbed on if he was being a complete nuisance. Trying to arrest him purely for not having ID seems like a case of a cop wanting to "teach the guy a lesson" and not even bein smart enough to find a valid statute. Or the local department/DA are trying to create a precedent.
  • "my favorite part of this job is screwing with people" There are certain lines of work that require what I think of as "professional assholes." Cop, reporter, lawyer, you can doubtless think of others: they don't require that you actually be an asshole personally (though it can help), but if you have too large a dose of the milk of human kindness and goodwill towards your fellow man, you won't be able to do the job (just as fainting at the sight of blood rules out being a surgeon). To do any of those jobs successfully requires ignoring normal standards of reticence and decency and pushing people in ways they don't like to be pushed in order to extract necessary facts; unfortunately, this attracts people who enjoy precisely that aspect. And with the police there's the additional problem of "power corrupts." (Note to cops and people who love them: I am not putting down cops, many of them are perfectly nice people; I'm saying it's a difficult job that requires a lot of often contradictory things, and I respect people who do it well. But if you're honest with yourself you have to admit there are plenty who don't do it so well.)
  • One other corrupting factor: in no other job are you so continually the recipient of lies. It does not engender kindness and trust to one's fellow monkey. I have a friend (well, cordial acquaintance, really) currently going through cop school. It'll be interesting to see how the job (small-town cop... very small) changes him.
  • I have been asked to produce ID before. One time I asked a deputy why. "I don't need a reason," he told me. That's bs. It's time to challenge this law.
  • "In no other job are you so continually the recipient of lies." Goetter - try working in collections. After watching the video, this isn't the best test case for this issue.
  • Oh my! My son is a cop (a narc) and I was a reporter in a previous career incarnation. I wonder what this says about my family? Except...I'm extremely introverted (but was an award winning reporter). My son is gentle and kind--and he NEVER carries his driver's license.
  • If I met a guy who claimed his name was Dudley Hiibel, I'd insist on ID, and I'm not a cop.
  • Larry Dudley Hiibel: We All Lose if Cops Have All the Power
  • Yup, this is scary. At first I was thinking, "maybe it's just that you have to give ID when a driver," which is okay, because when you have many tons of metal you can ram at people, you really should be required to carry ID. But then in reading the various links (thanks to all), I realised that no, Nevada (and many other states) just have evil laws. Hiibel might have been overly paranoid, but why do you want to know anyone's name before beginning the investigation? If anything is serious, you can get names then. If nothing is serious and it's a false alarm, then let the people go on anonymously and with their reputation unbesmirched. You shouldn't have your name on record until there is some substance to the accusation, because reputation still does matter, even in our huge societies.
  • Hmm, my name has changed a couple of times since I got my social security car in the 1950s, but the SS Administration has managed to keep up with it, in spite the fact that I haven't updated the information. I've always like the fact that I could still use my original last name for something, since the SSN was an identifier. And, if you think about more and more places want your SSN, even though it says on the card that it's not intended to be used to indentity you. Or at least mine does. Have more recent ones changed?
  • Name changes are a pet peeve of mine. I maintain a statewide directory of teachers and every year there are at least a few name changes. And of course, they have so many people to notify that they're bound to leave somebody out, and the somebody is usually me! Which is fine, until they call all upset because they didn't get their materials or are offended that they came incorrectly addressed. This year, I called one teacher to confirm her information, and when she told me her last name was changed she burst into tears and had to hang up. I found out later she had just gotten divorced. With the high divorce and remarriage rate, it almost seems more inconvenient for everyone involved for a professional woman to change her name.
  • That is so disturbing to watch. They were tazering (for the subsequent times) because he wouldn't/couldn't stand up after the first tazering. You can hear the pain in his voice. When did torture become part of legimitate police actions?