November 08, 2005

• Oof, that's a big read. Looks like it could be interesting, though. Gut, dass ich deutsch verstanden kann. **looks over slyly** Did you read it all?
• What a clever, learned man. I believe I shall vote for him to be dictator.
• ARE YOU INSANE????
• Ok, as someone who who thinks the democratic system in the US has been skewed by the vast amounts of money contributed by people and PACs who/which can afford to buy elections and give birth to media presentations designed by advertising types who don't let us see the humanity (or lack of it) of the candidates, I have to ask all the Young Turks and Utopians on MoFi whether the proposals this guy makes have any resonance with you. (That may be the longest sentence I've ever written.) My theory is, let the candidates get on a train and hit the whistle stops to make their proposals, in their own words and answer questions from those who attend. Which should be us, as well as those who don't agree with whichever "us" you come from. I have to admit that I didn't read the yards of exposition this guy offers, but his conclusions seem um, well... His economic limits on voting would disenfranchise a huge percentage of well educated people, for example. And, who is he anyway, stripe? Does he have any credentials?
• Funny, I was discussing this very topic today (with myself) If you read Marx's "The Communist Manifesto" he talks about how society starts out as communist with hunter gathers sharing the rewards and then moves forward with feudal lords and serfs, to the free market economy to finally evolving to (or devolving, if you will and if you are in Devo) to communism. If you look at communism's great failures you see, as in the of the U.S.S.R. there was no free market economy. They went from Feudal Lords to Communism. They skipped a step and therefore it didn't work. In Russia now we see the free market economy going wild, almost like it's 18 and it just moved out of it's parents house. Now we see, in Europe, "Socialism" becoming the predominate ideology. Isn't Socialism just Communism WITH a free trade economy? Are we in the last throws of Democracy? This monkey thinks so.
• Also, I have to think that Democracy in it's self is inherently flawed because it depends on leadership and a power structure. What about a world without leaders? man, I just blew your mind, dood!
• >What about a world without leaders? ...in which people would behave how, do you think? Fairly and reciprocally towards each other, according to the dictates of conscience and reason- so that society would be a direct expression of its members' mature and enlightened viewpoints? I think I'll take my chances with the corrupt democracies...
• Are we in the last throws of Democracy? You mean like the insurgency in Iraq? (Not so much a snark as an attempt to inject some perspective).
• throes
• Isn't Socialism just Communism WITH a free trade economy? Of all the questions in this thread to which the answer is "no", I think this is the one to which the answer is most "no".
• Because I spend too much of my time responding to stuff like this, I'll take a crack at it. I read about half of this. I wanted to give him a fair shot, and really consider what he has to say. He has a few very good points -- the speed of democratic transition n post-Soviet eastern Europe is very well noted. Further, he is correct when he points to the common disconnect between what is popular and what is right (not always the same; indeed, often they are at odds). Thoreau said: "Any government based solely on the will of the majority cannot be based on justice." But his logic breaks down in a number of ways:

  1. The author repeatedly asserts all the reasons democracy is wrong, saying for instance that inequality is growing in democratic countries. But in order to show causality, this trend must be compared with inequality trends in non-democratic countries. Nothing even close is attempted here.
  2. The few meagre alternatives that are presented are piecemeal and unpersuasive. One suggestion is to rescind voting rights from the wealthiest -- even as one who sees the world in fundamentally economic terms (and sides with the oppressed), this strikes me as silly. Besides, if Bill Gates can overpower scores of voters with his media empire, why would it matter if he himself can vote or not? Economic gerrymandering strikes me as asinine at best.
  3. My biggest problem with the entire approach to the question is the fundamental -- but unspoken -- assumption that democracy is ultimately a matter of governmental organization. In reality, democracy is about something far greater: it is a matter of human organization pertaining to every aspect of life -- government, economy, education, media, etc etc. All of his examples and discussions focus only on numerical voting speculations, and don't even begin to address the incredible potential involved in mass communications, education campaigns, and so forth. Which leads me to...
  4. Winston Churchill said: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." While democratic governments have problems, I believe the fundamental structure is sound. It was, after all, democratic possibilities won by our ancestors that made it possible for solidarity-minded people in the US and England and Australia to force their governments to abandon support for Indonesia's genocidal occupation of East Timor. The author would possibly say that our governments never would have supported the invasion to begin with if we had a different system of organization; but this was a matter of people not knowing -- not a question of popular support. Which brings me to...
  5. His examples all take as a given "all electoral procedures ... are free and fair, the media are free ... etc." But the media in most democracies is far from free. And yet -- even within such a flawed structure -- the ability of decent, caring people to change the will of the majority and/or bring about an uplift of consciousness is powerful indeed, and its impact should not be glibly thrown aside. Theoretical discussions like this one may occasionally swerve into the realm of sensibility; but the real world is infinitely more complex. And in cases like this, that complexity is one of the saving graces of democracy itself. In a system based on human interaction, the complex possibilities of the human mind multiplied by the complex possibilities of systems of social interaction make silly hypersimplicities like "democracy is wrong" just plain dumb. And finally...
  6. Those who profess to hate democracy would likely be the last to give up their own democratic rights.
• And to address one point from the MoFi comments: Isn't Socialism just Communism WITH a free trade economy? Are we in the last throws of Democracy? Let us please, please, PLEASE remember that democracy and "free markets" (which aren't all that free) are NOT the same thing. A non-democratic government could have a market economy -- and a democratic government could very easily have a command economy.
• The word communism as a system of government is used with two meanings: 1. Socialist tyranny (dictatorship of the proletariat,"actually existing socialism" in the jargon of the East German C. Party) 2. Utopian state, classless society. Both states share the common ownership of the means of production. Communism with a free trade economy is a contradiction in terms. What is called socialist government in Europe is more like a combination of Keynesian economics and massive socio-economical intervention by the state. Additionally, it cannot be said that communism failed because of Marx´s model of the phases of development. We may believe Lenin´s and Mao´s theories that this is not a problem - they are quite elaborate and among their logically more stringent reasonings.
• Also, flashboy said it.
• I only scanned through the article, but I can say that someone has certainly got a poor grasp on the notion that Power minus Accountability (even delayed or incompletely effective) equals Oppression. Our democracies may range from partially to thoroughly screwed up, but at least opponents can labor under the illusion that they may one day have legitimate access to the halls of influence.
• Abolition of democracy would prevent, or reverse, morally wrong decisions of democratic governments. The author is dead right here, in the same sense shooting yourself will make you stop smoking. Honestly, what did this guy smoke? The construction of utopias and ideal cities (without the consent of the people) requires the end of democracy.
• Hrmph. Wrong tag.
• Hm, well, the guy in the link seems to think that democracy is equivalent to letting just anyone vote, and that's bad. Is it? And that the ideal system would take all immigrants with no barriers, is that good? Seems to me there are some thing that could be debated here.
• A non-democratic government could have a market economy Greetings from China!
• Sorry, a debate started, but I got interrupted by a telephone call. You seem to be handling it, so I won't moderate anymore.
• Except to say that I love scartol.
• (still haven't read the article) Great points, scartol. And seeing your blog reminds me, did you ever try out my suggestions for fixing your site in IE?
• So this guy proposes we abolish democracy? I say we put it to a vote.
• Nah.. I never look at it, so I keep putting it off. Thanks for the advice tho.. I'll get to it one of these days. (And thanks for the positive feedback, all.)
• I'd vote, but I have to go shopping.
• Oh yeah -- I forgot about this part at the end: The end of democracy would end the legitimisation of the nation state blah blah yakkity smackity I always get nervous when someone tells me what something will or would do. We can't tell what the freakin' weather is going to do in three days, for crying in the bucket! Don't give me this feel-good hogwash about future certainties.
• Scartol wins! Very interesting post, There's no way I've got time to read it all ... but there are elements of it which chime with my view that democracy is seen with too much reverence by western powers and too much effort is given to imposing it on African/Asian/Arab states which currently don't have it. What pro-democracy campaigners forget is that Europe took many hundreds of years to evolve democracy, going through many difficult and painful upheavals to get there. Yet we expect the people of Iraq, Zimbabwe, Russia etc to go from Fuedalism/ Communism to Democracy immediately. Hence LiveWireConfusion's point above. But this still doesn't undermine Winston Churchill's quote mentioned by Scartol ... cos what is Utopian? Bentham's theory of Utilitarianism is a) almost impossible to define and b) almost impossible to implement. What's utopian for me is that Arsenal win every game. What's utopian for Serge sitting next to me is that Chelsea win every game. What's utopian for Lawrie is that Hearts don't appoint Graham Rix as manager. What's utopian for those sat around us is that we stop arguing about football ... Frankly the best way of implementing utopianism is probably democracy ... I'll get me coat
• Scartol wins! Very interesting post, There's no way I've got time to read it all ... but there are elements of it which chime with my view that democracy is seen with too much reverence by western powers and too much effort is given to imposing it on African/Asian/Arab states which currently don't have it. What pro-democracy politicians in the developed west seem to forget is that Europe took many hundreds of years to evolve democracy, going through many difficult and painful upheavals to get there. Yet we expect the people of Iraq, Zimbabwe, Russia etc to go from Fuedalism/ Communism to Democracy immediately. Hence LiveWireConfusion's point about the Russian economy above. But this still doesn't undermine Winston Churchill's quote mentioned by Scartol ... cos what is Utopian? Bentham's theory of Utilitarianism is a) almost impossible to define and b) almost impossible to implement. What's utopian for me is that Arsenal win every game. What's utopian for Serge sitting next to me is that Chelsea win every game. What's utopian for Lawrie is that Hearts don't appoint Graham Rix as manager. What's utopian for those sat around us is that we stop arguing about football ... Frankly the best way of implementing utopianism is probably democracy ... I'll get me coat
• ooops ...
• Mission Accomplished! I didn't post the link because I'm against democracy, or I think it's wrong. I'm a Social Darwinist. We think we can protect ourselves from everything, but in doing so tend to short-circuit natural selection. I propose all warning labels on hair-dryers, that warn the user to not use them in the bathtub be remove at once! Save Our Gene Pool!
• Oh, look at all the trilobites moaning on and on and on about they love their beautiful demoncrazy. Honestly, you evolutionary throwbacks with your backward-looking reliance on "history" and your nerdish love of "learning"! You really are the worst scum that ever survived the Tortonian stage of the late Miocene epoch, you fucks. Democracy is OLD and STALE and only those of us at the hip, cutting edge of political theory have the brains, good looks and sharp fashion sense to bravely reach out and embrace new forms. So sit back a moment and photosynthesise or whatever it is you do while I take you on a tour of the latest HOT POLITICAL MODELS that will be coming SOON to a polity near YOU. First up - pedarchy - government by children. Let the kids have a run for a change, and finally we can put our feet up and have a nice cup of tea. Don't like children? Then gerontocracy is the political system for YOU! They're too busy having endless state funerals to raise taxes or appear on chat shows. What about a simianatorship? A big strong country needs a big strong leader, and no-one will fuck with you when you make a Baboon president. Oh wait, you did that already. OK: how's about farkachy - government by childish website - or balloonocracy, government by windbags? No? Then "prease to accept" honourable raciostereobicameralism, a parliament consisting of two chambers of racist stereotypes! "Vely, vely good"! I think you'll agree that new forms of government are both fun and non-fattening; and if you don't then that's OK too because you are all just disgusting parameciums that live in my toilet anyway.
• I vote for quidnoot!
• I like the fact that he tries to insinuate that there is something wrong with democracy because it usually involved some sort of military action to get established. Right. And this is a surprise because? . . . . I mean, of course the ruling powers-that-be, absolute monarchs, dictators, etc., would gladly hand over power to the people without any sort of force. Therefore, when force is required, it is proof that democracy is wrong!
• Hair dryer device is not for the other use. /Engrish
• The best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship. Only, there ain't no such thing. Never has been. People end up wanting a say and raising hell, and the "benevolent" dictator has to shut them up. Democracy is flawed, but it's the best system we've been able to produce. We're dealing with the world of men here. We've never created anything that was perfect -- except maybe a photo-enhanced magazine cover.
• raciostereobicameralism. Awesome. I bow to your greatness.
• Actually, the best system of government is a benevolent Monkeybashi. Long may she reign!
• BOO! Depose the tracarchy and impose the quidnuncocracy!
• eh em. "As remarked above, some self-described socialists, especially those who identify as social democrats, but also including (for example) the reform-oriented "Euro-communists", advocate capitalism rather than a complete re-working of existing capitalist economies along socialist lines. These views also extend to many who would not describe themselves as "socialists." - Wikipedia I think I meant to say that these current Euro "socialist" countries identify with that ideaology ... That their version of Socialism depends on a free market economy. Anything else is opinion.
• Excellent thread on a sketchy FPP with teh shizzy brought by scartol under a truly wonderful Quidnunc Poopacy. Here's my vote: American democracy is fundamentally crippled because the "well informed populace" does not exist. Jeffersonian democracy (help, scartol) relies on a fourth estate that has been largely co-opted or made irrelevant by those currently in power. I voted last night for things I only read about yesterday. That's messed up. Where are the web sites? Where are the insights? ♪♫ Turn on your Heartlight ♪♫ The point being that without a proper media structure/system (agreed, "proper" is tough to define) Democracy as such is always fighting to be democracy. Or something.
• What pro-democracy campaigners forget is that Europe took many hundreds of years to evolve democracy, going through many difficult and painful upheavals to get there. Yet we expect the people of Iraq, Zimbabwe, Russia etc to go from Fuedalism/ Communism to Democracy immediately. Hence LiveWireConfusion's point above. But there are counterexamples where democracy took root quickly. The most obvious example, of course, is Japan, where an imposed democracy after WWII has taken root.
• >well informed populace Isn't it 'well-educated and well-informed'? Either way, yeah, the present state of the union leaves a little something to be desired.
• Indeed. I would first vote to reduce the crazy amounts of money being spent on political tv and radio ads. Instead of being able to have anything that resembles an informed debate, we have sound bites and shouting. The voting reforms that were up for a vote here in Ohio were literally called "the devil" in a tv ad that was (rumor has it) funded by the same guys who did "Swift Boat Vets for Truth" last year.
• I mean, we've had mud-slinging and shouting in US politics almost from the very beginning (Andrew Jackson blamed the death of his wife on political mud-slinging). I don't think that the framers of the Constitution ever foresaw the media technology or the amount of money being spent on campaigns (as, indeed, they didn't foresee a lot of things, not being psychic), so we're going to have to get creative. Sorry if I'm not making a great deal of sense. My brain is tired today.
• Greed killed Democracy. Hunger will save it.
• One dollar = one vote. That's the real-world definition of democracy, baby.
• I agree, meredithea - campaign reform is a must. Although as far as Andrew "Trail of Tears" Jackson goes, I'd just as soon kick him in the historical balls, rip his mug off the $20 and put the American Indians on there that he robbed & killed. Fucking racist som'bitch /rant
• Seventy-one-year-old Silvio Berlusconi is launching a new mass party to unite Italians "against the old fogeys of politics".