November 07, 2005

• I was thinking of posting this today too. Here's the BBC timeline. W. T. F. France?
• And guess where I'm going on vacation week after next? G'wan, guess! I'll give you a hint -- starts with a "P" and ends with an "Aris, France." Not that anybody's going to be torching the Eiffel Tower anytime soon, though. And besides, if anything should happen, it's been years since I was in a good riot. Anyone up for a Paris MoFi meetup..? Allright, allright, grownups talking. I promise to behave from now on.
• While the deaths was an obvious spark, I would imagine that most of what has occurred has been mob mentality. It is an unbelievably overwhelming force. People who are otherwise not violent will join in when they see that everyone else is doing it and there is no consequence. It is a huge adrenaline rush. I imagine if you ask individual rioters what they are rioting about that you will get a lot of vague, unknowing, and contradictory answers. Now it is up to someone to try to cull politicial intent out of all the riots and get some sort of political demands met.
• Gotta love how that shitrag the Washington Times uses a "see, France is worse than the U.S." angle to start this story.
• That is the ugliest part of this. An eruption of years' (decades?) long simmering desperation, hopelessness and mutual lack of trust and hatred is likely to be spun by the usual players to benefit their agendas. The people on the street, given the choice of being a casualty or another fist in the air, are the ones that will get steamrolled. No, I've never been there, but from acquiantences' tales of prejudice and barely contained xenophobia even from highly educated, supposedly enlightened people, and the terrible news of fundamentalist excesses from immigrants regarding treatment of females and such, a very troubling scene is gleaned. Ther might not be a burning Eiffel Tower, but those cars and houses on fire (btw, remember all those strange fires on hotels and housing filled with immigrants, from a few weeks back?) can be excellent starting points for even worse developments.
• Actually, the interviews I've seen with young rioters are remarkably lucid, even well-reasoned. They're complaining about the one-sided nature of integration. I don't know if they see any end to their rioting, though. See, France still beats America.
• You bastard...I'll just bet if we opened up your deepfreeze we'd find bag after bag after unpatriotic bag of freedom fries....hmmmmmm?
• The Washington Times? The one owned by Rev. Sun Myung Moon and the Unification Church? If you're going to post a Newsfilter story, at least post one from an actual newspaper.
• Sorry, the NYT has been completely discredited. So has the Washington Post, and the LA Times. I heard about it on Sean Hannity's radio show. There are no more actual newspapers.
• Koko's link is brilliant, and really shows how this turned from from "Huh?" a week ago to "Holy Fucking Crap!" today.
• Barbara Bush just told CNN that French people of North African descent are happier living in suburban housing projects.
• (The TIME link was good though...all the facts without the anti-France, anti-immigration snarks.)
• There are no more actual newspapers. Pretty much; I view them all as a basic heads-up with dates and locations...the real stuff is in bits and pieces in the chunky media soup we call the internet.
• (The TIME link was good though...all the facts without the anti-France, anti-immigration snarks.)
• This is spiraling out of control. I'm beginning to wonder if this is an organized and coordinated uprising, and not spontaneous protests like I originally thought.
• hawthorne, you owe me a new keyboard
• I don't know if this is just fearmongering on the part of the French press, but I've seen in at least 3 different articles claim that there seems to be a level of organization and planning that indicates that what's going on is a bit bigger than simply rioting. Of course, like in any place where some individual or group with influence has a vendetta and a large supply of young, angry men who (rightly or wrongly) believe that they've gotten the short end of the stick, those people put the angry young men right out there are the sharp end of that stick and just push. For every person out there throwing bricks through storefronts or setting fire to buildings or cars there are twenty or fifty or a hundred who are enabling them, in a continuum from overtly arming them to encouraging them to turning a blind eye to tacitly approving of the violence in hope of something changing.
• I say we blame the bloggers.
• I don't think it's organised right now - I think it's thousands of pissed-off bored and broke alienated kids fucking shit up...but I bet it will be soon by by every mope with an agenda. I'm watching to see if splinter groups start fighting each other. Then we'll know the vultures have landed.
• Bloggers shot that Archduke Franz Ferdinand pussy. Not everyone knows that.
• It'd be interesting to see how this plays out for Al Qaeda. Disaffected European Muslim youths have been their chief recruiting ground lately -- and now that there's an outlet for their frustration other than abandoning onself to the welcoming arms of radical Islam (however that outlet's legitimacy may be disputed), will that lead to a decrease in support for terrorism? If the rioting allows the kids to let off steam, maybe. If the rioting leads to addressing this alienation and abandonment on a fundamental level, perhaps this provides the longer-term solution that's been missing so far.
• France to Impose Curfews to Quell Rioting
• Right, so long as the rioting doesn't kill anybody, or ruin anyone's lively hood, its all good as long as they don't become terrorists.
• or livelihood... either way.
• I fear it's the other way that things will swing - all that disenfranchised and now demonized youth burning cars tonight won't tire of it tomorrow and try to just integrate into a society that has failed to do so. They're ripe for becoming the next wave of extremist cannon fodder. If, sadly, armed response ends up causing casualties to the rioters, these martyrs will become the new banners for protest. And so the circle goes around... And if there's someoen to blame, how about phone companies? There are reports of rioters coordinating attacks via text messaging; ah, damned Sony, Nokia, Samsung, Siemens, those anarchist tool makers!
• I think it's clear that there's a level of frustration that's not being addressed within the regular political means. There's a legitimacy to their viewpoints, which have gone largely ignored by the 'larger' society for generations. At some point, it can only be expected that the political tools which have proven ineffectual will be abandoned in favour of something else. Do I support rioting? Do I support terrorism? Of course not. Do I understand that someone can feel compelled to resort to them? Certainly. If the rioting leads to a systemic re-evaluation of the imbalances at hand, when the orthodox political channels have consistently failed, perhaps that rioting becomes a legitimate act. I really don't know. What I do know is that these problems have to be addressed, and that hasn't been happening.
• Do I support rioting? Do I support terrorism? Do you support Battle Royale?
• I suspect that France will in the end make a token move to capitulate to their demands, therby proving once again that if you don't get what you want, start destroying the property (and lives) of the people you live among, and that will effect change. These cars, in my understanding, are mostly burning IN the minority neighborhoods. Why not say we'll give you the voice you want, fair representation, but only when the violence stops, and until then, we will set up checkpoints and insure the only neighborhoods you can burn are your own.
• Are there any english-language links to asertions that this might be an organized series of events? Is there any credibility to such claims? Who would be the organizer/s?
• Oh sure, I agree. Violence can be legitimate. When its directed at the objects deserving of it. These people aren't burning down the Prime Minister's home. They are burning their neighborhood places of employment. Why does Joe Shopkeeper have to pay for your political change?
• Haven't seen the movie, but the book was friggin' AWESOME! And the sequel has Sonny Chiba as the anarchist uncle! Sonny Chiba! Sonny! CHIBA! Brilliant, dude, just friggin' BRILLIANT.
• Eh, Sarko -- ntm.
• I just viewed a slideshow on Koko's link. If life in the banlieus was bleak before, what will it be like now that gyms and schools and banks and community centers have been burned down? I haven't seen Battle of Algiers or La Haine yet, but I've read Tea in the Harem.
• Some background on Nicolas Sarkozy, who helped play a part in sparking these riots.
• I'm not thinking Al Qaeda as much as I'm thinking Northern Ireland 1967-1974.
• These are angry young men who are protesting against the unfairness of their treatment at the hands of a nation that judges them by the color of their skin. That has happened over the decades in the US and other countries. The problem for these young men, and the others that look like them, is that the French now have real images that they can use to back up their prejudices. That is certainly not going to make their future treatment any better. They are burning the cars and shops in their own neighborhoods, and burning their futures as well.
• Why not say we'll give you the voice you want, fair representation, but only when the violence stops, and until then, we will set up checkpoints and insure the only neighborhoods you can burn are your own. This reminds me, some of the news I read said that the two electrocuted boys had been evading an identity checkpoint.
• Battle of Algiers or La Haine Spending three hours watching these two films (Battle of Algiers first) basically brings you right up to speed on what's happening right now more than any amount of news footage can. They are also both excellent films in their own right.
• Sonny Chiba! Cap, You ever see the movie where Sonny Chiba destroys the entire illegal drug trade in Japan? Playing himself, of course. I think they say something about Paris or fire or French cuisine or maybe Champagne in the movie so it's not off topic...
• Villepin said curfews will be imposed under a 1955 law that allows the declaring of a state of emergency in parts or all of France. The law was passed to curb unrest in Algeria during the war that led to its independence. Ouch.That worked out well.
• There's another, not so deep vision of the hopelessness and alienation of minority youngsters in France on the film Lila dit ça. Sexual tension is the main basis of the plot, but racial stereotypes and the grim hopes of integration show up in there also.
• guavaI would like it to be made explicitly clear that they are only hurting themselves. But... then... I don't expect those that haven't already figured it out to get it just because they are told. Checkpoints bad? Ok. Letting people burn other people's property. Also bad. Do I want to see reforms, of course, but reforms can't be because of wanton violence. Everybody has to be held to account. I don't see how this works out at this point. People are going to get killed, others are going to be further impoverished. Now its just a question of who. We've seen this scenario played over and over and over. Most recently in the USAians war on terrorism (which is just going oh so well for us AND them). The last guy that figured out how to do it properly and not cause a death spiral was Gandhi. Can the French government be shamed, peacefully? Oh yes. That might actually work.
• I notice the French have not [yet] surrendered. What gives?
• I find it disturbing how many headlines in the usual right-wing outlets are trying to equate the rioting to Muslim fanaticism. In any case, I enjoyed reading this editorial:

  The old right-wing rant of Maurice Le Pen that immigrants won't assimilate/integrate is now part of the national discourse. Few see the incongruity of keeping non-whites on the fringes of society and, then, accusing them of not belonging to it.

• I believe they are planting trees so the rioters can riot in the shade.
• Let them eat cake!! Eh? Eh? Anybody get the reference?
• Why not say we'll give you the voice you want, fair representation, but only when the violence stops, and until then, we will set up checkpoints and insure the only neighborhoods you can burn are your own. What about the thousands and thousands of French citizens who happen to be of North African descent and living in these neighborhoods but are not engaging in the violence? Why should they be penalized in this way? This seems like a sure way to maximize the race-based us-vs.-them-ism of the situation.
• Didn't anyone notice when the neo-nazi candidate got something like 10% of the vote in their recent election? They have some very big racial problems over there and they aren't new.
• In the late 80s I was engulfed in a panic-stricken mob at a big outdoor concert. Word had spread through the crowd that LePen supporters had planted a bomb in the crowd. You're right, it's not new.
• (This was just outside Paris. It was also very scary.)
• La Haine is one of my favourite movies! I thought of it as soon as these riots broke out. Life imitating art...
• Agreed, drjimmy11. The French oddly ill-equipped to deal with the problem. An older civilization; you'd think they'd have a grip on it. I guess that's just me, coming from a hyper-reactionary part of America that's poised to "deal" with illegal Mexican immigrants. We don't want them, but we need them. Go figure. So things fester here as well... there is a time bomb ticking, according to some. But in the instant case in Paris, it seems easily lit by the fuse of the Islamists. Remember, these seem to be young people with little future otherwise.
• "lit by the fuse of the Islamists" - I'm still waiting for proof that it's Islamists, and that religion is actually related to this in any way.
• "lit by the fuse of the Islamists" This has three fifths of fuck all to do with religion. Want to be black or a Beur in France? Welcome to ten types of shit.
• That's why I'm thinking this is more like The Troubles. A long time in the making, and a long ways to go.
• The French have always had a reverence and respect for their own culture which often translates to disdain for other cultures ... Basically their approach is, if you wanna live in France, you gotta be French ... That's a great approach in some ways to preserve the positive aspects of French culture, the language, the food, the wine etc ... but it's not a great leap from insisting that a certain percentage of French pop music is played on the radio and you can't wear religious clothing to school, filtered through the staggering rudeness and arrogance of yer average Parisian, to a position where ethnic minorities living in poverty are gonna feel that French society discriminates against them. Which they do.
• I say we blame the bloggers D'accord.
• "Our approach to integration, based on the concept that everyone is equal, is part of the problem"
• Cap, You ever see the movie where Sonny Chiba destroys the entire illegal drug trade in Japan? Playing himself, of course. Aah, "Bodyguard", a classic. The scene in the Times Square dojo is enough to make the movie, but as soon as it hits the press conference at the airport, with Sonny wearing those Carlos-the-Jackal shades, you know you're in for a good time. And since Sonny plays himself, it's suitably self-reflexive and post-modern, which excuses much of the general incomprehensibility of the plot. So I say we send in Sonny Chiba to settle this all out. Send in the Streetfighter! If humanity's common love of Sonny Chiba isn't enough to bring everyone together, then POW!
• "lit by the fuse of the Islamists" - I'm still waiting for proof that it's Islamists, and that religion is actually related to this in any way. It isn't ... From this Yahoo news story from yesterday: France's biggest Muslim fundamentalist organization, the Union for Islamic Organizations of France, issued a fatwa, or religious decree. It forbade all those "who seek divine grace from taking part in any action that blindly strikes private or public property or can harm others."
• And since Sonny plays himself, it's suitably self-reflexive and post-modern, which excuses much of the general incomprehensibility of the plot. O captain, my captain, our beerful trip is done... So I say we send in Sonny Chiba to settle this all out. That's how Bruce Lee woulda done it!
• greetings from paris. there's good background to this on wikipedia at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France the french page has some information that's not available on the english page: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violences_urbaines_de_2005_en_banlieue_francaise my view of this is that it's partly a racial/ethnic integration issue and partly an economic issue. there are many immigrants in france who do quite well for themselves. to find employment, the big drawback appears to be having both an "immigrant" name plus an address in one of these "troublesome" districts. the behaviour in france now is similar but on a much larger scale to behaviour i witnessed in dublin in the 1980s - kids with little or no stake in society, predominantly in their teens and lacking much hope of a job, start torching things out of anger and boredom. many of those involved can't be charged as they're too young, so why not burn a car and then start stoning the fire brigade when they arrive? it's exciting and it's payback to the authorities who hassle them (or are believed to hassle them) at every available opportunity.

  I notice the French have not [yet] surrendered. What gives? posted by f8xmulder at 12:55AM UTC on November 08, 2005

  f8x, i've sometimes thought that some people here are too hard on you, but this comment has led me to reconsider. thanks for clarifying.
• From Skrik's link: The modèle républicain d'intégration is based on perhaps the most sacred article of all France's grand republican creed: that everyone is equal and indistinguishable in the eyes of the state. No matter where they come from, all French citizens are identical in their Frenchness. It is a fine principle born of the ideals of the 1789 revolution. But it has practical drawbacks. For example, statistics based on ethnicity or religion are illegal in France; no one knows how many residents are of Arab or African origin, how they perform at school compared with white pupils, or what percentage are jobless or in prison. If analysing a problem is halfway to solving it, it is not a good start.[...] "The people who live there live next door to France," said student Yasser Amri, a third-generation immigrant and one of the very few to have escaped his estate, west of Paris. "The republic deals with citizens, not with individuals. But we're not citizens. We don't know what we are. Not Arab or west African, but not French either. We're unrecognised and unremembered. No wonder people rebel."
• I notice the French have not [yet]surrendered. What gives? (posted by f8xmulder) f8x, i've sometimes thought that some people here are too hard on you, but this comment has led me to reconsider. thanks for clarifying. Pretty sure it was meant as a joke. I thought it was funny ...
• greetings from paris Ding dong, when is the meetup roryk?
• The Daily Show made the same joke last night. Does that change your opinion of the show?
• I'm still waiting for proof that it's Islamists, and that religion is actually related to this in any way. From the wikipedia article: "Despite these claims, video footage clearly shows rioting youths crying "Allahu Akhbar" as they fight the police. This suggests that Islam is a factor in this conflict."
• Then they're ignoring the fatwa.
• > Ding dong, when is the meetup roryk? after i get my back out from against this wall.
• > Pretty sure it was meant as a joke. I thought it was funny ... i'm pretty sure it was meant as a joke too. however, it's a knee-jerk reaction that i've seen hundreds of times from people who were pissed off that france wouldn't join the iraq adventure. at this stage and in this context, i don't find it funny.
• We can bitch about him at our meetup.
• We should bitch about kitfisto too. He's worse.
• Yeah. I hear he's a communist, and wears footy pj's to bed.
• Paris is not burning. What you see there is just the usual amount of cigarette smoke.
• there's a charming bar called "a bas le couvre-feu" in clichy underwood. we could meet up there late some evening.
• I hear that's a hot spot.
• Mmm I hear the nightlife is terribly vibrant.
• The US news machinery seems to be spinning this as a "tu quoque" event, which made me suspicious. In France I have experienced exactly one incident where there was any hint of racist behavior - and that was a real estate agent trying to dissuade me from purchasing in Homps, where "a group of houses are being built for immigrants". The agent gave me a definite sense of "those people", and that surprised me. All over France you see a mix of people apparently getting along quite well. An article in the Eurotrib makes it plain that the causes of the rioting cannot be reduced to the gossip spread by the US media.
• The Daily Show made the same joke last night. There are times when TDS is not funny. This is one of those times. I thought the whole "freedom fries" anti-French thing was truly embarassing. I got plenty against the French, but not invading Iraq and voting against that insane action is definitely not one of them. Also the right-wing talk radio crowd that's so fond of belittling the French should read this and shut up about it. . . . the notion that the French are cowards is total bullshit, and anybody who knows anything about European military history knows damn well that over the past thousand years, the French have the most glorious military history in Europe, maybe the world. Not that I would say military history is particularly "glorious", but it's a great counter-argument nonetheless. er, sorry for the derail. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
• I have nothing but respect for the French for standing up to the US and refusing to fight in Iraq. I still think the comment was funny, in the same way that lots of running gags about the US or Canada are funny.
• Just sayin' is all. I mean, it's not that funny. I'll shut up about it now.
• You're right, pete...that whole "freedom fries" thing was embarassing, but so was that article you linked by the self-proclaimed "war nerd". Fact is, France laid down in WWII to protect the Eiffel tower and the Louvre from potential bomb damage. That's where the "surrender-monkey" jokes originated, and not without good reason. I don't dislike the French at all, but a good joke is a good joke.
• The boys are out burning cars, and the girls are trapped at home terrified of being gang-raped if caught not wearing a head scarf, of forced marriages, and being murdered for aspiring, essentially, to be a citizen of the country they live in, have been educated by, and likely born in. Yildiz taught me the term "femmes des quartiers," women of the quarters. It indicated that she and those like her inhabited a double world, a day world with movies and soccer games, and a world after dark, spent within the tight boundaries of strict Muslim families marooned in a country that has done little to assimilate them.
• A lucid and level-headed analysis in that Eurotrib link, jet_silver.
• I don't know whether the French have the most glorious military history in Europe, but I think they do have a particularly long and venerable tradition of riots and disorder, in Paris particularly. So in a way, the people from the banlieux are demonstrating their adoption of one aspect of French tradition which goes back to the Fronde if not earlier.
• Fact is, France laid down in WWII to protect the Eiffel tower and the Louvre from potential bomb damage. That's where the "surrender-monkey" jokes originated, and not without good reason. I don't dislike the French at all, but a good joke is a good joke. posted by rocket88 at 06:52PM UTC on November 08, 2005 The French were hit by the bloody bliztkrieg (sp?) and the armies rapidly collapsed, not without some incidences of sublime and foolish heroism - including from De Gaulle. The cadets of the French military academy were slaughtered defending their academy. This was the fricking Nazi war machine, which had defeated all of of the armies that it had yet faced - and Britain only escaped by virtue of being ACROSS WATER. Only a fraction of the British expeditionary force escaped because the Germans blundered. And the United States? Those pansies had yet to even join the war. So anyone dissing the French army on WWII, especially any American, can kiss my proudly Anglo ass. (this comment prepared with handy facts from Dreadnought, my resident military history encyclopaedia).
• As for WWI - they fought four terrible bloody years of war, much of it on their own soil - civilians and army alike dying (unlike we protected North Americans). And, together with the rest of the Allies and the always late Americans, defeated the Germans.
• So anyone dissing the French army on WWII, especially any American, can kiss my proudly Anglo ass. rocket88 is not American.
• 1. The joke about France was funny. Koko was correct. 2. At the same time, it's ridiculous that this thread has turned into a "France is studly" - "No, France is a pansy" debate. Comments like "France has a particularly long and venerable tradition of riots and disorder" add precisely NOTHING to this conversation about the current riots in France. Besides, the same thing could be said about a long, long list of other countries, including, most likely, YOURS. Might as well have said, "The French are homo sapiens."
• If you can't be bothered to find out whether there might be any substance to my comments, Hawthorne, I can't be bothered to educate you.
• "Besides, the same thing could be said about a long, long list of other countries, including, most likely, YOURS." The British do not riot, Hawthorne. We whinge
• We Canadians riot over hockey games and Guns 'n' Roses concerts. *shoots self in the head with American gun smuggled into country in exchange for pot*
• And by the way, when I mentioned Islamists, I was not thinking of "religion" per se. I had never heard of Tariq Ramadan before this uprising, and after some reading on him, I think his influence is rather interesting.
• Wow, that bit from Skrik's link excerpted by Koko is enlightening for me. Statistics can be an important part of what makes the case in complaints of illegal race/religion-based employment or housing discrimination. It seems like prohibiting the collection of such data would severely hamper the work of agencies that review and pursure such complaints, and make impossible the tracking anti-semitic or race-based hate crimes.
• Plegmund: No, I think the logical onus is on you, in this case. You're the one who made an unsubstantiated blanket statement. In any case, there are analogous circumstances to the French revolution and the riots of 1968 in almost any country you can name. Where do you live? I'll happily compile a list of riots and disorder from your home country.
• Does it help if a liberal Crooked Timber academic supports Plegmund's take? Speaking of Crooked Timber, I thought this thread on the subject sparked a number of interesting comments.
• Here is an unfamiliar outsider's take based on the information I have: these "scum" are the children of the disenfranchised populace of former colonies. Many are French citizens. Many speak French. They have been marginalized through the expedience of willful neglect, which is the practice of many nations saddled with a growing population perceived as a liability. Now the youth are finding a voice and a sense of belonging, at last, to each other if nothing else. Swipes about the French culture and history notwithstanding, it seems like this mess is being badly mishandled by the French admistration, which appears to be fractured itself.
• I refer the honourable Monkey to an old fpp of mine for one exploration of the 'revolutionary crowd' in 18th centruy France. I've read a bit of George Rudé and Colin Lucas and fetishise the Commune like any other crusty old Lefty, but would be interested in plegger's take on any especially French aspects of riot and tumult in the body politic, though the essay on Dicken's Tale of Two Cities seem especially relevant.
• f8x, i've sometimes thought that some people here are too hard on you, but this comment has led me to reconsider. thanks for clarifying. Oh good Lord, roryk, could you be any more serious? This has nothing to do with France's involvement (or lack thereof) in the Iraq war. Whatever made you make that (il)logical jump is probably the same crazy juice that people in France are drinking now. Wooohooo!!! Lighten up DOOD.
• From Smo's link to DSquared: In forthcoming weeks, I shall be applying similar analytical techniques to topics like ... "Muslim immigrants cannot fit into British society because they are insular, bigoted and sexually repressed" raised a belly-laugh.
• I think you all are reflexively nasty to f8xmulder. I have been monitoring some of the extreme right and left sites. It's such a polemic; are both sides actually looking at the same phenomenon? One side has it that the wingnuts are scurrying to expose the nasty A-RAB elements in this here buncha ingrate darkies' rabblerousin'; the other insists that the moonbats are harpies that are going into a full-on ankle-biting frenzy, thereby kickin' up the foul dust of complicity and comparable crimes. I'm all for civil and reasoned argument; summarilary drumming someone down who has a different perspective is just plain shitty. Even if they're incompletely informed, as is usually my case. I for one would like to keep such reasoned voices as FX around here. Fair and balanced, and maybe even civil and intelligent. But what do I know? I'm just a Jew.
• I dig anybody who can back their shit up and take it like a man or she man, whatever the hell they think...to a point. Kill the _____! And have sex with the ____! probably won't cut it, but close enough.
• Oh good Lord, roryk, could you be any more serious? i can try. This has nothing to do with France's involvement (or lack thereof) in the Iraq war. so it's merely a coincidence that your sole response to the civil disturbances in france is to trot out the groundskeeper willy meme about the french that gained currency among the u.s. hawks during the run up to the invasion? Whatever made you make that (il)logical jump is probably the same crazy juice that people in France are drinking now. oh please, you can do better than this. call me names or something.
• Sorry I was tetchy, HW - your comment caught me at an inauspicious moment. Perhaps you thought I was adding to the ongoing frog-bashing (humorous or otherwise), but that was far from my intention. That long and venerable tradition I mentioned deserves respect, if you ask me. It certainly seems to me, anyway, that the Paris mob has played a role in French history over many centuries which has no counterpart in other capitals. Paris must surely be the only city in the world where the streets were actually redesigned to give the Government cannons a clear shot at the inevitable rioters. It also seems to me, without wanting to exaggerate, that the current protests have a definite Gallic flavour and that it wouldn't happen like this anywhere else. But I really can't review here the whole history of popular unrest in the streets of Paris - there's just too much of it, which is rather my point. Maybe if I can find a nice enough site as a basis, we can have an FPP on the subject ready in time for, ooh, Bastille Day, say?
• For the record, "surrender-monkey" comes from 1980's Britain (which I didn't know until just now), and was popularised by The Simpsons. So says Wikipedia, anyway We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread regarding the Paris riots, and the role a marginalized populace plays in them.
• We Canadians riot over hockey games and Guns 'n' Roses concerts. moneyjane, that was so sad. I can't believe that anyone who has a penchant for listening to the shrill cucumber-in-the-crotch wails of Axl Rose would feel disenfranchised when he didn't show up. The "We're number two" riot was just stupid. Drunks calling themselves shit and killing themselves from drunken falls. When people from outside the country think Canada has a good education system they have to realize the option to use it is voluntary.
• so it's merely a coincidence that your sole response to the civil disturbances in france is to trot out the groundskeeper willy meme about the french that gained currency among the u.s. hawks during the run up to the invasion? No, it's not coincidence. It's just a simple fact that I thought it would be a funny comment. I had no other intentions, other than to be funny. Unfortunately for everyone, you've ground any humour out of the whole thing and have turned this into a conservative chickenhawk vs. the French thing, which it was never intended to be. Thanks.
• well, to be fair, I don't think we turned it into that. I think "talk radio" turned it into that. BTW, I didn't read the articles this morning but what laws did they enact or enforce last night to stem the rioting?
• Thanks, Plegmund. I did in fact think you were piling on. The limitations of Internet message boards....
• I thought it was funny, f8x. So it wasn't a complete bust. YOU STINKING RIGHT-WING FRANCE HATER!!!111!1
• you've ground any humour out of the whole thing i've ground any humour out of what whole thing, exactly? this guy's death? the burned out schools and civic centres?
• i think he meant the "surrender"-meme thing.
• So, roryk, we're not allowed to make humor out of tragedy? What an even-more-awful world that would be.
• Where is SideDish, anyway?
• Where is SideDish, anyway? I was just wondering that, yesterday. I have been away from here for a while, mostly, and it seems like lots of familiar faces have disappeared. Or maybe my memories just fading, and now everyones names look alien to my eyes
• Haven't read through this whole thread, but here is a perspective I found helpful.
• > i think he meant the "surrender"-meme thing. okay, my bad. i need to chill out.
• Yeah, well, it's less funny when you live there.
• I can't find a picture of French kittens, so let's all enjoy some yummy croissants!
• Those were yummy! Mine had kitten filling.
• So anyone dissing the French army on WWII, especially any American, can kiss my proudly Anglo ass. rocket88 is not American. posted by middleclasstool at 10:37PM UTC on November 08, 2005 I know. He's from Southern Ontario, just as I am. I was just saying that I find it particularly offensive from Americans.
• Also, I was responding to f8x, whose comments I normally find intelligent. I really really dislike this joke because it isn't just a joke - it's an out and out American prejudice.
• So is the cheap Scotsman, the drunk Irishman, the no-sense-of-humour German, the hoser Canadian, and the bad-teeth-havin' Englishman. It's nothing personal, I'm sure.
• I blame ZOG for making Americans not like French dudes. As a Canadian, particularily a Western Canadian, I find it rather retarded to take offence at an American jokingly razzing the French, given a large percentage of Canadians want to bitchslap the Export A's out of French Canadians every time they trot out that Separatist referendum horseshit. Or as we call it, the Neverendum.
• Also, I was responding to f8x, whose comments I normally find intelligent. I really really dislike this joke because it isn't just a joke - it's an out and out American prejudice. It's a good thing I wasn't trying to be intelligent! This is one instance where I tried to be funny and not at all political and it sort of backfired. Maybe next time I should post a disclaimer... Oh, and not that it gives me more or less license to make stupid French jokes, but one of my beloved uncles is French. I mean, like seriously, born and bred in the French countryside, which I find imminently cool.
• So, Wolof, you have first-hand perspective? Please share.
• Maybe next time I should post a disclaimer... Warning: don't overintellectualize. And bring a toothbrush if you're British.
• you have first-hand perspective? I was referring to roryk's recent humour impairment.
• So is the cheap Scotsman, the drunk Irishman, the no-sense-of-humour German, the hoser Canadian, and the bad-teeth-havin' Englishman. It's nothing personal, I'm sure. posted by rocket88 at 02:25AM UTC on November 10, 2005 And funny enough, but I was raised not to make racist jokes, not even about people who are currently in power. (whereas were any of these jokes about North American minorities, everyone would be offended). Thing is, people say, hey it's just a joke, like the cheese eating part. Which implies it's true (like the cheese eating part - thought they always leave out the amazing bread and generally all round good food part). But it's a very hurtful thing to say, and fact is that most Americans now believe it it is true. This makes me extremely angry. Make fun of Canadians for liking poutine, for the British for drinking too much (like fish!), make fun of Americans for pasting their flags everywhere and make fun of the French for being stuck up about their own language and culture and criticise them for owning up to their own society's blatent racism. But do not dishonour the memory of thousands of soldiers and millions of people who lost their lives in those wars. I have some nasty, nasty things I could say - and excuse them by going "It's just a joke, don't you have a sense of hunour?" - but I don't, because I know they aren't just jokes. But this is a derail.
• Frankly, I'd be scared to use a term like "racism". It implies that "races" exist.
• International athletics is a sham!
• racist jokes ??? Last I checked, American, British, Canadian, French etc. were nationalities. No one here has made a racist joke. I've saved an almond croissant for you, jb, but only if you promise not to throw it.
• and fact is that most Americans now believe it it is true. This makes me extremely angry. I agree. I mind that the sentiment has honestly become "real" to a large number of people which is pointless (except to ridicule those who oppose the Iraq war), wrong, and just plain scary. (Scary in the sense that inaccurate generalisms are so easily made "truth" to so many voters people) As for your remark about ze Germans, let me just say that we all have fine senses of humor! We love a good joke! Dieses ist offenbar offensichtlich! Sie reichen Ihre Papiere sofort ein! Schnell! Geruchkaffeespäne und blaue Trompeten informieren Sie!
• I don't know what you just said pete, but I was deeply touched. Get your filthy German hands off!
• According to Babelfish: This is obviously obvious! They submit your papers immediately! Fast! Smell coffee splinters and blue trumpets inform you!
• I love how "Smell coffee splinters" is one word. Does it translate to "Wake up and smell the coffee"?
• Last I checked, American, British, Canadian, French etc. were nationalities. You checked too long ago, we all have become distinct cultures now. My ethnicity has become Canadian now in the corporate wasteland. I demand reparatioins for what the corporations have done to my people! They stole our water! They took our trees! They put their big box megastores all over the corners of our neighborhoods! And for the record, we were gonna give stuff back to the Aboriginals, honest.
• By international law and collective proclamation of the world community, you are hereby required to take a lap.
• ...you are hereby required to take a lap. I've lapped it up for far too long, boss! Feel the indifferent and polite sting of the Canadian people! Please.
• Oooh why you . . you . . InsolentChimp! *shakes fist*
• Your favorite band / race / nationality / culture / favorite drink country of origin sucks.
• *Seeks robed counsel*
• Le Bushie
• Wolof - races do exist, as a social perception. The lack of their biological validity has nothing to do with their existence or not. Racism doesn't disapear, as much as anyone might wish it did. As for whether French, German, etc are "races", the word "race" was originally used to designate national groups, specifically "the English race", "the Irish race", etc. Which is, of course, pointless. Just because someone is prejudiced against a national group instead of a colour group, it still makes them a bloody prick. No, I don't want an almond croissant. I don't want to just turn over and play nice, not to rock the boat. However, I also don't want to derail this post any farther.
• <>races do exist, as a social perception Which is reinforced how, exactly?
• stupid tags
• I wasn't asking you to turn over and play nice, jb, I just feel you're making a mountain out of a molehill. I've never condsidered that remark anything more than a friendly jab, certainly not meriting the vitriol it's produced here. On the other hand, I never realized that I'm a prejudiced, bloody prick. Thanks for letting me know!
• It is my belief that when one finds oneself teetering atop a very tall hand-crafted molehill, it is best to allow oneself to be gradually jollied down rather than fall off and land on one's face. I'll eat that croissant, you prejudiced bloody prick Koko.
• Yum! It's owl flavour.
• Just to clarify...I do not, in fact, think Koko is a prejudiced bloody prick. Also, if I say anything that gets me in trouble tonight, I'll simply blame it on the Neo Citran and Contact C I've been snarfing and it'll never stick in court. Nyah!
• MonkeyFilter: it is best to allow oneself to be gradually jollied down Well then giddyap! Hiooooooo!
• Speaking of jolly, it's only 44 days, 1 hour, and 18 minutes days until Christmas. At least from my perspective.
• Fuck Christmas!
• I saw the most frightening Christmas decoration today. It was a giant electric snow globe with a snowman inside, and snow pellets were shooting out the top of his hat at terrifying speed, making frantic skritching sounds as they hit the top of the dome. The clerk cheerily informed me, "it plays music too!"
• This struck me as the weirdest xmas junk ever. 'Old european custom'? Yeah, sure. Oh well, maybe it is, but searching for that in google sounds like work... yawn. Maybe, in fact, it's some kind of propaganda material from those anti-xmas forces that some people rant about! Even being a veritable scrooge, I'm tempted to get this beauty, in case certain people keep complaining about the three years of no-tree policy...
• French people are so fucking stupid. They don't shower enough, either. I hate them.
• Ha
• I don't get it.
• Okay, fine I'm totally over reacting. And my husband is so cheap, it must be that 1/4 Jew in him! haha! so funny. Mind me to pull out the stupid Native jokes in the next thread too. Those are always a barrel of laughs. There are things that are just over the line. Making light fun of a stereotype is one thing - Canadians in toques on snowmobiles, just fine. Pushing a hurtful stereotype, one that notably has been used to bolster American support for the war in Iraq (if the French are against it, it's because they are cowards, not because it's a stupid war), I'm sorry if I don't like that. It's a hurtful stereotype, and on today of all days!
• i agree that this french = coward idea is particularly distasteful around armistice day. what bothers me about the idea is that i don't remember it as a stereotype prior to iraq 2, and i see it as a manipulation of u.s. (perhaps anglophonic) culture by hawkish interests. i note that a lot of stereotypes are popularized within a culture in order to justify behavior toward other cultures (e.g. it was okay for britain to control ireland in the 19th century because the irish were drunken, proto-human, ne'er do wells). groundskeeper willy notwithstanding, the stereotypes about the french that i grew up with concern arrogance, superciliousness, verbosity, excessive garlic consumption, and a variety of other traits that do not include cowardice. looking at french history, i see more hubris than cowardice. so, i'll continue to miss the humour in comments about french cowardice, and anyone who doesn't like it can kiss my hairy troglodyte drunken irish arse.
• i don't remember it as a stereotype prior to iraq 2 Don't you? That joke's been around since WWII, and the Simpsons episode you're referring to is from well before Iraq 2. Perhaps it's been used a lot lately by US war hawks who hate the French; I really don't know, because frankly, I ignore morons like that, as most people should. I don't recall the joke ever being used as a vicious stereotype, so that's why I bristled at your reaction. But I'm more than happy to drop it now. Hey, what's happening in Paris, anyway?
• At least the French turned up to WWII on time. The yanks were less than timely, as I remember.
• And then, of course, there is the American tendency to take on more than they can cope with, like the technologically backwards Vietcong, who kicked the well-equipped American military machine all over the Mekong delta. Fucking American pussies! (Is my stereotyping offensive enough, yet?)
• "At least the French turned up to WWII on time." Well, they couldn't really avoid it, being next door to Germany, an' all. But they capitulated rather quickly, however the heroism of the French Resistance gives the lie to the surrendur monkey cliche. Plus they used to rule Europe. Yeah, the Yanks came in half way thru with fresh troops, when we'd worn down the enemy, and to watch every Yank war movie ever made, you'd think that they were the only ones in it. It's a national psyche of sensitivity.
• Just to be clear Groundskeeper Willy is Scottish not Irish
• who ever said groundskeeper willy is irish? > Hey, what's happening in Paris, anyway? paris seems relatively quiet at the moment, though i've seen lots of police vehicles and heard lots of sirens. there were riots in the centre of lyon this evening. for up-to-date information, le nouvel observateur has an hour by hour account.
• I would like to take the opportunity to dissuade anyone from perpetrating the vicious stereotype of Canadians as easily offended finger-waving, thread-hijacking, vaguely-superior-at-all-times-to-Americans, we-don't-like-the-French-we-have-let-alone-those-poncy-bastards-over-the-sea small 'h' hypocrites. Because it's just not right. Fuck you all! I will burn your White House again and dance the Electric Boogaloo on your filthy American graves!
• As an Amero-Canadian, I protest the stereotype that I'm jealous of myself, that I'm completely ignorant of my rich history and that any culture I have I borrowed from me. It's completely untrue that I look on smugly as I go down in flames because of a war I started based on lies, which I refused to participate in because I hate freedom and wear a toque. U-S-EH!! U-S-EH!!
• On the other hand, mj, I imagine that there are many here from the US who love the ideals of our country, but haven't figured out how to get them re-implaneted into the politicians who loom over our good intentions. Yes, the system is really broken, but the good guys (or acceptably semi-good guys) have managed to take it back many times over our history. I think we can do it again, but we need heroes in politics, with the charisma to coalesce a majority vote (without any fraud.) Do you think the at least 50 percent of us who are agonized over the trends of the last (too many) years are cheering? The conservatives have learned marketing, while the middle roaders to liberals have tried honesty. You don't know how distressed I am that "talking points" and fundamentalism have managed to co-opt our government. There are a lot who feel the same way, but there's been no center around which we can build a front that will tackle the marketing genius of the right wing. So, if you'd like to come kill me so you can dance on my grave, email me and I'll give you my address so you can do so. Since I feel so impotent about taking back this country, maybe that would be good. You just need to wait until I"ve taken care of some day-to-day obligations. And, yeah, you really trashed the US steortype about finger waving Canadians! You were waving fire and death, which makes us all feel so much better.
• ...get them re-implaneted into the... re- pref. 1. Again; anew: rebuild. im- pref. 1. In; into; within: inundation. Before l, in- is usually assimilated to il-; before r to ir-; and before b, m, and p to im-. planeted \Plan"et*ed\, a. Belonging to planets. [R.] --Young. To again innundate with global properties? Manifest destiny? The British are coming!
• We need heroes in politics
• I have been reading more about the simmering tensions in France and elsewhere not-America. My strong point has never been history because I distrust any and all retelling of events I didn't witness (goes back to stumbling through Caesar's diaries in the original Latin). I do think that race and nationalism get conflated in these discussions. I continue to consider accounts of recent events filtered by differing perspectives and I'm more confused than before. jb speaks passionately, as I would if I felt an attack on my personal identity. I'm just not sure what that is anymore, in my case.... :(
• Path. I was making fun of Canadians? Including myself. I thought dance the Electric Boogaloo on your filthy American graves! made it kind of obvious.
• Argh - yes, he's my best hope.
• Sorry, mj, I guess I thought your meds weren't kicking in. Mea culpa.
• what the fuck is with you weepy weeds? Everythings all about how my meds didn't kick in. So what's the real excuse?
• Seriously, why is this this a convenient chick excuse? And why do people readily accept it
• what the fuck is with you weepy weeds? Everythings all about how my meds didn't kick in. So what's the real excuse? It sure the fuck isn't any excuse of mine! That was path sliding in a weaselly passive-aggressive insult. Honestly? WTF. I post a thread about a significant current event that gets completely derailed and turned into an over-sensitive whinefest. Myself and others try and lighten it up a bit - given it was becoming the thread humour forgot - and I get this horseshit; Sorry, mj, I guess I thought your meds weren't kicking in. Mea culpa. If that doesn't take the cake for backhanded 'apology' I don't know what does. I give a lot of latitude for others joking around because I do it myself; hence the dance the Electric Boogaloo on your filthy American graves! comment. But you know what? I don't and won't buy that that's what the meds comment was. And cynnbad? Make up your mind...either me and my meds are a cause for concern, or some kind of excuse. I am realllly getting tired of humour, black or otherwise, getting willfully co-opted as ammunition for somebody else's snark. If you have a stick up your ass about something then post a goddamn thread about it rather than cherry picking and hijacking somebody else's thread.
• Christ, mj take a pill wouldja?
• Obviously humour is off-limits as long as there are oppressed people in the world. We should all just look forlorn and serious and wring our hands. I also think it's a little strange how vehemently France is defended around here. Maybe it's one of those "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" deals, but France is not exactly a beacon of liberal progressiveness, despite their anti-Gulf War stance. This is the country that blew up Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior because it was interfering with their nuke tests.
• ...humour, black or otherwise, getting willfully co-opted... Whitey won't let the black man have anything. They car-jacked the blues, lifted rap profits, and now they're co-opting black humor. Mercy! Paul Mooney was right: like it, but don't like it too much.
• This is the country that blew up Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior because it was interfering with their nuke tests. C'mon, rocket88, not that I like stinky, detached French people any more than the next hater, but the granola-eaters had it coming in a bad way. I mean, seriously, how do the ideas of "community" and "non-bathing" gel? Maybe if they weren't complete morons about "informed protest" they might be able to affect some actual progressive change. "Yeah, mmm globalization bad, mmhuh. Man, this is some wicked creeper bud! Whoa, like Monsanto mmhuh, yeah it's bad! This [buzzword] is harshing my buzz." Read a book, Moonbeam. Kill 'em all! Stupids.
• my apologies to the thread owner for snarking at a misunderstood attempt at humour. my apologies to f8x for misunderstanding his attempt at humour. my apologies to y'all for bothering to comment on a thread that concerns the city where i live. i'll fuck off now. k thx bye.
• I also think it's a little strange how vehemently France is defended around here. Maybe it's one of those "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" deals, but France is not exactly a beacon of liberal progressiveness, despite their anti-Gulf War stance. This is the country that blew up Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior because it was interfering with their nuke tests. posted by rocket88 at 07:50AM UTC on November 13, 2005 See, there's this little thing called a strawman. I never defended France's race relations (which are atrocious), immigration policies, urban planning, let alone their nuclear policy. I happen to disagree with all these policies. But that doesn't give anyone the right to stomp on the graves and memories of millions of French people who lost their lives or freedom in the world wars. (This is called "Two wrongs don't make a right" - you may not like current French policy, but criticise that, not something completely unrelated.) We may wear poppies, but the French have lived with those graveyards in their backyards. These are the people who actually faced the Nazi war machine in their homes (something no North American or Brit can say). They surrendered when they had been defeated and their leaders offered surrender or death. And we feel we have the right to make fun of this? What arrogance! Dreadnought said the reason I cared so much about this was because it falsified history, and he's right - I do find it so very offensive because it is based on historical lies. It hits me personally there. But it's also just a nasty, nasty stereotype. It's isn't a fun, we like you but we're going to make fun of your foibles stereotype - it has the edge of nastiness. I don't know if it was meant that way, and I'd like to give everyone here the benefit of the doubt, but many people say things without really thinking about what they are saying. My original comment was to try to get people to think about what they say.
• roryk - where do you live in Paris? What is happening there now?
• These are the people who actually faced the Nazi war machine in their homes (something no North American or Brit can say) jb - I think you've forgotten the Blitz and the thousands of British civilians who lost their lives as well as their homes. Of course a lot a myths have grown up about the British response and I have no doubt that in similar circumstances to the French we'd have made similar choices. There's a film called It Happened Here that I'd love to see - "it challenged post-war complacency, the belief that we the British, the ‘bulldog breed’, were somehow different from those other Europeans who gave way to Nazi ideas and invaders so easily" it sez here.
• My strong point has never been history because I distrust any and all retelling of events I didn't witness Finally, someone in this thread is talking sense! I agree with cynnbad - HISTORY IS BULLSHIT. Basically, most of it never happened and the rest was different. Oh, you're all like "but what about last Tuesday?" Face up to FACTS, you IDIOTS - I wasn't even there and that guy had it coming anyway.
• A_C - you are very right, I did forget the Blitz. I'm sorry. I was thinking from a very North American perspective. I should really like to see the film "It happened Here" as well - I heard about the making of it on the radio. To answer to cynnbad's interesting comment and quidnunc's quip - I don't think history is bullshit, though I do understand how non-historians could become quite confused/cynicle about its interpretation. To be honest, I don't think that first hand experience brings greater understanding to history. It brings a different understanding, one which can point out details and situations on the ground much better, but usually people are too close to history they have witnessed to think about it in the way they think about history that is more distanced. I'm quite happy that I study the seventeenth history, not just because I like old stuff (which I do), but also because I can distance myself from the issues more, emotionally as well as chronologically. I realised in the one class on 20th century social policy that I took that I will never have an academic understanding of contemporary welfare and healthcare - I am much too immersed in my own experience. When I look at the more distant past, I feel that distance (so often bemoaned) can at times be a benefit - not only do I have the perspective of time and more knowledge, but also of being less emotional. And I'm sorry if that was too long winded or meandering - I've just been reading and watching Pride and Prejudice and finding myself wanting to imitate (badly) Austen's lovely refined but overblown (for modern ears) speech.
• > roryk - where do you live in Paris? What is happening there now? if i hadn't wandered off under a cloud of self-importance, i'd say that i live near bastille, which hasn't been touched by the rioting (unlike the night after le pen got through the first presidential round, when there was a big spontaneous demonstration/riot here). overnight, things appear to have been calmer than on previous nights - the general trend over the week is down. in paris itself there's little evidence of what's going on in the surrounding suburbs. there are plenty of tourists around for the time of year, and i've yet to see any major vandalism. on the more important issue of what's to be done, one interesting thing that several people have said to me is that chirac has failed to acknowledge or do anything about les cités because he contributed to their creation when mayor of paris. from what i understand, he has consistently refused to even admit that there's a problem in these areas because doing so would be an admission of failure or of failed policy. strangely enough, sarkozy might be the best hope the youth of the banlieus have.
• This thread needs to turn its frown ... upside down!!
• > I agree with cynnbad - HISTORY IS BULLSHIT a wise man* once told me that those who refuse to learn history are doomed to repeating it over the summer. * mr murphy, my 1st year class teacher
• A wise man* once told me that those who refuse to learn history write history. *Mickey Mouse, my LSD tripping buddy.
• I dig anybody who can back their shit up and take it like a man or she man, whatever the hell they think... Actually roryk, you are covered by Exception 435 as detailed above. While the original derail may have come from one of your comments, I didn't consider any of your comments to be a problem (or, really, a derail) as you were backing your shit up and you do live there. It was more the way the thread continued to lumber along far, far away from Paris and the present situation after that. And derails are not usually something I mind at all if they lead into a new angle or bring to light background information that provides a better context for why something is happening. This thread wasn't doing that. I'm serious about the 'start your own thread thing'; I've used that as a basis of a number of my own threads. If you feel really strongly about some aspect of a thread, there's probably solid information out there you could post, rather than simply ending up with a 'who sucks more' contest between the US and France, and it'll probably be a really good thread. And we can always use lots of good threads, no? Christ, mj take a pill wouldja? Nope. If I fuck up, I'll step up; but I stand by this one, especially given the comments that I quoted that really pissed me off were references to a completely different thread dragged into this one. I will, however, take a bit of a break.
• jb, WWII attacks also happened here.
• It strikes me that a bunch of hurt feeling happened in this thread, which isn't the norm for discussions on MoFi. Most of the fire-starters were attempts at humor, which usually work here. My theory is that the "end of thread" silliness started too soon, so those who were still into the emotional reaction to the riots didn't see the humor which they would have in other circumstances. And, those who attempted to take us to less serious places were mystified by the disconnect, or took things personally that they wouldn't have under other circumstances.
• "Christ, mj take a pill wouldja?" Nope. If I fuck up... Just a joke on the theme of path's "meds and you" and your "joking" and cynnbad's "out of left field misogyny". It was s'posed to bolster your defense. I hate 'splaining... But I love being an ASS!!!! That's Archaeology Society Student, by the way...
• Hey roryk -- ex-resident of Rue de la Roquette here. Reprazent!
• You...you...insolent chimp! Otay :)
• Rue de la Roquette It's so cute how they named a street after Roxette! "Must been love, but it's over now ..." - ah, good times. Or maybe its named after that weird type of lettuce. I dunno, I don't speak BELGIAN or whatever.
• It actually was named after the lettuce, which used to grow in the convent towards the top end of it. Nuns! Reverse!
• -- ex-resident of Rue de la Roquette here. eastsidaz! la coté est, c'est le best!
• on the metro this morning, there was a new format "watch out for your luggage, report any suspicious packages, we'll blow up your bag if you leave it unattended, etc." announcement. this got me thinking: if an al qaeda inspired group had been planning an attack in paris and was close to launch, when better than now (or the last two weeks) to make the attack?
• Oh you lettuce-eaters and your crazy German language!
• my favorite paris street name: Rue des mauvais garçons on the rivoli edge of the marais. Orig. du nom. Habitée autrefois par une population turbulente.
• Seeing as no one noticed the first time: FUCKING AMERICAN PUSSIES!#!
• 
• We noticed, Skrik, we just don't care ;-P
• Picture was site-protected roryk. Only says "welcome to crazydoodle.com." I tried following the address, but I got redirected as well. What's up with that? Anyone know how to find out if website images do that? I can't tell on my computer if I've already accessed the image, because it'll post and appear in the preview for me...
• damn my bad, i must've been caching the image when i posted... it showed a bunch of cats fucking, though they were probably fucking european pussies as none looked like a maine coon
• You pack of lettuce eating riot monkeys wouldn't know a historical fact if it passive-aggressively slighted you with a joke! n00bz! LOL!1!
• Article from NYTimes has the French ambassador declaring France "back to normal". I stopped following the story, any comments from well-informed types? In that story, I found the following particularly interesting: Levitte [the ambassador] also suggested "the word 'riot' is a bit too strong" to describe the disturbances and that while thousands of automobiles were destroyed and scores of police officers injured, there were only a handful of fatalities, in contrast to the 1992 Los Angeles riots that left 55 people dead and $1 billion in property damage.
• since the night of 16/17 november, the police have been calling it "back to normal". only 98 verhicles were burned that night, which is the average in normal times, apparently. there have been no reports of buildings damaged or burned. i can't find any reports of rioting/disturbances after the 17th, though there are reports on issues arising out of the riots. it has been cold for the last week or so, with overnight temperatures at or below freezing. there's a summary of the effects here (injuries, damage to property, etc.) i've only seen one death reported. re the word riot, the term being used in the french press is "émeute", which i'm not certain how to translate. it's defined on wikipedia.fr as "a demonstration or a gathering accompanied by spontaneous violence" and on a canadian site as "a tumultuous and violent public gathering, defying authority and the law, and during the course of which people could be killed or property destroyed."
• «Emeute» = "riot". Never mind wiki, this is from the Collins Robert.
• Emeute-toi! - a diary from Paris.
• Thanks, Abiezer, well informed and notably -- Really Fucking Notably -- does not even mention the words "Muslim" or "Islam". I cannot tell you how sick I am of the usual suspects co-opting this as grist to their holy war mill. All bullshit, but convenient propaganda bullshit written by assholes who have no real knowledge of the situation. Or, as we say, the "situasse".
• thanks for this a_c. i initially read the author as "jeremy hardy" who coincidentally was performing this week at an anglophone comedy club in paris. i missed him for want of a babysitter :-(
• Prominent French intellectual denounces Sarkozy

  In France we are capable of celebrating a man like Napoleon, who brought back slavery.Today he has been replaced by a man who, for me, is simply [Jean-Marie] Le Pen with a mask: Sarkozy.

  "He's French, he's flash, He's fucking Lesley Ash..."
• sounds harsh, and yet it's all greek to me.
• . this time it's over new employment contract legislation. we might have a general strike!
• weird, i wrote something, i promise. more rioting this weekend over new employment legislation. we might have a general strike!
• general strike called for tuesday march 28. villepin may back down. the cpe (contrat premier embauche) is already being redefined as "comment perdre une election".
• nowhere else to comment about this, but paris st germain, the relatively young football club that by default represents paris, has won the french cup. very noisy around my 'hood now. much more noisy than when the riots were going on...
• PSG! PSG!
• A year after their social explosion, Henri Astier returns to France's impoverished suburbs to ask whether anything has changed.
• Good article, thanks A_C.
• La Chute, and interview.
• Nice one bob! France's 'thugs' hope to win revenge on Sarkozy Banlieues Actives - a get out the vote organisation started by French rappers Rost and Noir sur Blanc.
• I wish them every success -- but I have to wonder how many will participate in a system they feel has already excluded them...
• Candidates target French youth. Sarkozy promises a 'Marshall Plan', Royal a free loan of ten thousand euros, and Bayrou simple respect. Guess who's leading.