November 05, 2005

• Neat link! The wikipedia also has a picture of the progression from skull to reconstructed face.
• They've made him look a bit like an old drunk in the park though.
• Ha! He just looks like some jerk!
• cross-eyed is TeH seXXay
• One is curious as to what physiognomists would make of that face. I have seen similar features in both Irish and Scots people. I understand the rather prognathous jaw and long top lip are characteristic of the Celts. (?)
• One is curious as to what physiognomists would make of that face Given that physiognomy is a pseudo-science, I am curious as to why anybody would be interested in their opinion, even supposing any still existed.
• That's not Copernicus, that's James Cromwell!
• Possibly Wolof, because an interest in ideas and opinions - no matter how alternative to one's own; whether 'psuedo scientific' or that of "the credible scientific community" enables one to remain attentive to intellectual enquiry and creative exploration. Thus bestowing an added vitality to personal evolution. Said interest may also alleviate somewhat, the human tendency toward intellectual arrogance, and ensure a degree of personal humility. It may also generate free and open discussion among those of like mind and intelligence. Arrogance in particular often leads to a rigid, narrow perspective and a cessation of intellectual growth.
• ... and has the added benefit of honing one's sense of humour!
• Police experts produced a reconstruction of the man's face THIS is the only thing Polish police have to do with their time!?
• That's not Copernicus, that's James Cromwell! Weird. I was thinking the exact thing. He has the same sort of long face. But I think Cromwell is a little bit better looking than that picture. Maybe they'll get him to play Copernicus in the movie.
• I wonder how good the Polish reconstructionist is. The best (well, most well-known) in that field are all North American.
• I don't know, I think when the police help out with things like this it can build up public goodwill for them, and it also lets people know that this service (reconstructing faces from skulls) exists. Maybe I'm just saying that because I think it's neat, though :)
• the human tendency toward intellectual arrogance, and ensure a degree of personal humility. Are you on drugs? Because I'm cool with that.
• It appears they didn't have the jaw. He was quite chapless. So they must have based the lower face on the Torun town hall picture, which was apparently taken from a self-portrait. Interesting that many of the pictures of him show the asymetric eyes, they must have been a notable aspect of his appearance.
• Those eyes seem oddly close together... I wonder if that's a mistake or not.
• Wolof, I don't think ANYONE on MonkeyFilter has ever called you a total unmitagated dipwad in a more genteel way before. I think that this calls for a doffing of the hat, a crisp click of your heels, a slight bow from the waist coincidental with a nod of the head, as well as a hearty, "Thank you!" expressed in a warm voice. I'm sure you'll want to respond in the same manner in order to keep the standards high here.
• In general my tongue is firmly fixed within my cheek. To be precise (and to pre-empt a Wolof-witticism), the upper-left! BlueHorse, I felicitate your perspicacity.
• You who her what in the where now? Cause I'm cool with that.
• Pseudoscience isn't something to be cheered. Having an open mind shouldn't extend to having a twisted mind. There are wrong ideas, and they should be called out as wrong. It's like libel - we don't let people go around printing lies about other people. Claiming something is a science when it isn't is like printing lies about the universe. Now, if you want to talk about something like Chinese face horoscopes (what's the proper name for those?) where you talk about someone's personality based on what shape their face is, much as astrology works on when you were born, that's all fine. Just understand that it's mysticism aka pseudoscience, and don't get offended when someone says its pseudoscience. Also, any pseudoscience based on spurious ideas of nationality and race is creepy. Especially as there is really no such thing as the "Scottish" or "Irish" people - everyone in the area are a grab-bag of Norse, Irish, and Anglo ancestors along with maybe some pre-Scottish British, (not to mention Indian, Pakistani, Middle-Eastern, Carribean...) "Celtic" is a language group, not an ethnic identity. The idea of Celticness was invented by a Welsh nationalist in the 18th century.
• "Chinese face horoscopes" is called 看相 kan xiang. A good and learned friend of mine swears by it, but I fear from what I know it is indeed a load of old bollocks (not sure what they call the 'science' of the shape of them).
• It's been 2 minutes and I'm still laughing at this line: Ha! He just looks like some jerk! HAHA
• "The idea of Celticness was invented by a Welsh nationalist in the 18th century." No, the idea of Europeanness was invented by some non Indus-Valley descendant who was pissed his ancestors weren't involved in the battle of Magh Tuiredh!!!! /spittle
• Celticicity is real. /Celt of the non-Riverdance persuasion
• A visit to Tara (The Valley of The Kings of Ireland) would effectively refute the asinine statement; "The idea of Celticness was invented by a Welsh nationalist in the 18th century." but once again Chyren's erudite intelligence and pithy comment nullifies the disingenuous assertion.
• "Celticicity"?
• I agree with jb insofar as Celticosity (hee) was a culture not an ethnicity. The relevant bit from Wikipedia

  In his book Iron Age Britain, Barry Cunliffe concludes that "..there is no evidence in the British Isles to suggest that a population group of any size migrated from the continent in the first millennium BC...". Cunliffe tempers his remarks by pointing out that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but modern archaeological thought tends to disparage the idea of large population movements without facts to back them up, a caution which appears to be vindicated by genetic studies. In other words, Celtic culture in the Atlantic Archipelago and continental Europe most probably emerged through the peaceful convergence of local tribal cultures bound together by networks of trade and kinship - not by war and conuest. This type of peaceful convergence and cooperation is actually relatively common among tribal peoples, other well known examples of the phenomenon include the Six Nations of the Iroquois League and the Nuer of East Africa. The ancient Celts are thus best depicted as a loose and highly diverse collection of indigenous tribal societies bound together by trade, a common druidic religion, and similar political institutions; but each having its own local dialects and traditions. [My emphasis]

  I now question my own putative Celticality :P
• Hmmm... Going by that definition, then the term "Chinese people" would also be incorrect. Nonetheless, similiar nomenclature such as 唐人 (people of the Tang [dynasty]) or 汉人 (People of the Han [dynasty]) have been in use for centuries, and implies a bond between Chinese in other ways than language, region or religion.
• I am bloodied, yet not bowed! "The ancient Celts are thus best depicted as a loose and highly diverse collection of indigenous tribal societies bound together by trade, a common druidic religion, and similar political institutions." Agreed but it can be noted that within this social collective lay 'racial types'. For example, Judaism is most often designated a 'race' whereas Jewish people are in fact, a diverse people connected by a common religio/cultural tradition. However, within the Jewish 'nation' are those of Semitic appearance, sterotypically considered to denote a person of the Jewish faith.
• That is fairly close to my view of contemporary Han nationalism Alnedra. It involves fitting the more pliant traditions of a old agricultural empire bound by a shared culture and polity (note how it's dynasty names that are chosen as a self-identifier) into the narrower confines of ethnic nationalism and the nation-state, which has its roots in relatively recent European events. I'm no fan of ethnic nationalism in a fairly gut response, but it particularly gets me goat when inappropriately back-projected into historical contexts where it isn't relevant - like the modern Chinese state'a attempts to derive legitamacy as inheritors and preservers of 5,000 years of tradition. Largely a fiction in my view, though obviously I'm not trying to deny any continuity. On preview: fight that corner jeraboam!
• I think we should steer away from the idea of race as genetics, there's not much in it. Race is culture, primarily. The Celtic cultures spanned a vast length of time and geographical distance. What most people mean by 'Celt' today are the gallic races of the UK and the ancient French. I believe it was the Romans who coined the term Keltoi, perhaps derived from a word used by the European tribes themselves, although unlikely to be truly representative of their sense of identity considering how tribal and divided they were. I think it probably meant something like 'the hidden people' or the 'people of the woods'. Who knows? I mean, when I was working on the digs part time in Canterbury when they were digging up Roman remains under the old Marlowe theatre, most of the archeologists still argued whether the Beaker peoples could be considered the first wave of Celtic settlers or not, and to my limited understanding of the subject, it looks like nobody is really sure. When you talk about the Celts you are talking about waves and waves of different migrating people over several millenia, so trying to pin down a distinct identity for them is probably a fool's game. What we know of them is based mostly on their technologies, their art, and what little remains of the religions. What is true, I think, is that the European cultures had a much closer trade link with the mediterranean peoples at certain points, than used to be believed. I think these people were tremendously sophisticated, much more so than they've ever been given credit. In that sense, maybe there's not so much in it. Much as I decry nationalism and racial pride as folly, I must admit I am very proud of my mostly Celtic (Scots and Irish) heritage, although there's a strong bit of Ashkenazi Jew in there, as well. Try walking about the hills of Tara or sitting in the Newgrange tomb and not feeling a thrill, if you've got Celtic blood, my lads. It's really something else.
• I think it's (still cringing at my misused 'it's' above) 'racial types' that I can't be having any truck with jeraboam. I'm a fairly dyed-in-the-wool proponent of race as a politcal or cultural construction. Of course settled populations tend to share a lot of common genetics, and obviously people from particular communities do look one way or another, - tall, dark, blonde, whatever. But there's never any clear demarcation as far as I can see - it gets all blurry on the margins between groups - and given what I see as the context in which the modern idea of race was formed - colonialism, slavery and the rest - I think it's something we can better do without, even the fun bit like Celticability.
• But this NYT link off the Wikipedia page on race is interesting Gene Study Identifies 5 Main Human Populations
• More Cunliffe required! Oooooh, yes.
• Gene Study Identifies 5 Main Human Populations Requires login.
• Gene Study Identifies 5 Main Human Populations 1. People. 2. People who need people. 3. The luckiest people in the world. 4. People who let our grown-up pride hide all the need inside, thereby acting more like children than children. 5. Hippies.
• You're just angry your cock is too large.
• Chy, when the moon is in the Seventh House, and Jupiter aligns with Mars, then - and only then - peace will guide the planets, and love will steer the stars. *sings* This is a drawing of The remains of copernicus! Remains of copernicus!
• One views the jaw and eyes of Copernicus in the looking glass every time one shaves the visage. Fortunately the nose is not featured! Heh! My point was not that one should define a culture by a physical stereotype but rather, that within a culture are people with features which can confirm a stereotype to those within said culture/society, and who themselves maintain such a populist myth (primarily in order to re-inforce unity within that society). One mentions Judaism in this context since Jews themselves will argue that their religio/cultural 'national' identity is bound by their 'race' (the original Tribes of Israel). I am of course, simplifying here. 'The Black Irish' is sooth; those with black hair, very pale skin and blue/grey eyes. The Welsh see 'the Celtic' in a person with dark curling hair, blue eyes and of compact, muscular build, whereas the Highland Scot defines 'Celtic' as red hair, blue eyes, long jaw and pale skin. In fact, it is more likely that the 'red Celt' hails from 'the Viking' - the northerners who invaded by sea. An excerpt from the work of: Donnchadh O Corrain, Professor of Irish History, University College, Cork. "There has been much discussion amongst historians of the 'high-kingship of Ireland', the claim that there existed a king who exercised authority (of one kind or another) over the whole of Ireland. This implies a certain consciousness of unity. It is clear that from a very early period the Irish learned men had begun to work out a prehistory of their race. This was done in the seventh century and out of it grew eventually An lebor gabala, 'Book of the taking of Ireland', which united all their dynasties and peoples by descent from a single set of ancestors. This proved to be a powerful and all-pervasive myth which used race, language, land and landscape as the basis of national unity. . . ." As Abiezer_Coppe noted ... "and given what I see as the context in which the modern idea of race was formed - colonialism, slavery and the rest"... I would ague in concert with you. Unfortunately there are so many cultures/societies which confirm the opposite; such as the culture/society of the Australian Aborigine (Nyoongah) peoples, and those cultures which arose similarly in 'isolation', as it were. One is also in agreement with Chyren's; "I think we should steer away from the idea of race as genetics, there's not much in it. Race is culture, primarily" .. and then .. "Try walking about the hills of Tara or sitting in the Newgrange tomb and not feeling a thrill, if you've got Celtic blood, my lads. It's really something else." One has experienced the 'spell' of Tara (in common with Chyren) where one's "Celtic blood" stirred and rose in one's breast; heard the call of Cuchalain, quaffed a jolt of the poteen (metaphorically of course) and raised the shelelagh in salute. A notable aspect of Celtic culture was(is) their art. Unsupassed as creators of 'tall tales', they were an astonishingly creative society in social forms and intellectual exloration (as well as music and art).
• oops ..for 'exloration' read; 'exploration'.
• Chy, the way you describe feeling about Tara is pretty much the way I feel every time I go on board a submarine with screen doors. (I'm Polish.)
• I wonder how good the Polish reconstructionist is. RACIST!
• Um...I'm not the least bit "Celtic" and I'm sure I would feel a great deal at Tara, as at the Taj Mahal and the Pyramids as well. I actually can't argue about this well, as the book I was reading is in Toronto and I never had a chance to finish it. It was by an Iron Age archeologist, on both the ancient history (as much as is known) and the contenporary myths. But as far as I know, most of what is known about the "Celts" comes from the continent, and may not have applied to populations in Britain and Ireland at all. As for superficial similarities - I'm sure that pre-modern Iroquois and Hurons would have seemed very alike to someone who didn't know them, but they hated one another. The Welsh and the Scots didn't even speak the same branch of the language - it would be like expecting English people and Swedes to feel an ineffable connection. (Maybe not even as closely related languages? I don't know the linguistic details). Also, I get extremely annoyed at assumptions that celts, aka Scots, have any more native claim to Britain than the English when they arrived and conquered at just about the same time. I hate nationalism in all forms - self-rightious nationalism is all the more offensive.
• The Welsh, on the other hand, have far more to actually complain about.
• Well, Julius Caesar and others wrote a fair bit about the Britons from first hand, although one suspects the Roman accounts were rather full of propaganda and such, viz their depiction of the Druids as loathsome killers, etc. We know quite a lot about the British tribes from archaeology, although of course no written accounts survive from the ancient times. Culturally, they are lost forever, although I think you may stress the differences between the British and European tribes a bit too much - there was a hell of a lot of trade and shared religious practice, when they weren't fighting one another, that is.
• Celts, Picts, Neolithics who cares? If you want to get into any sort of argument about genetics and race, you have to realize that it is much more likely than not that all human beings share the earliest strings of DNA codons from Africa. White power. Besides, the Picts probably went pseudo-extinct from interbreeding with Celts. Taiiiiiiinted blood. Oh, the horror. Of course, if you consider the climate at the time of the early Picts in Caledonia, they might have been black or Mexican!
• Blue, if I remember correctly. ;)
• Uncanny... you're right. They actually painted their entire bodies black and sometimes Mexican excluding certain line drawing shaped areas where the blue skin tone would shine through. These areas of skin usually were depicting small toadstool houses and trade icons, such as eyeglasses for the highly inteligent or heart shaped tattoos for the incredibly strong and so forth. Speaking of origins, now I think I have a theory about me lucky charms!
• It doesn't really matter whether Copernicus was Germanic or Slavic, or whether he looked Celtic or Jewish, and I'm sort of glad his ethnic/linguistic characteristics remain shrouded in decent Latin. As a matter of fact, I'm not really sure that idle curiosity (or even promotion of the tourist trade) is sufficient reason for exhuming someone.
• Astronomer Copernicus reburied as hero in Poland
• The sun revolves around Poland now, given enough epicycles to explain its motion. The Pre-Copernican solar system model was simply more encrypted than his. They could explain everything with enough gyrations...