October 31, 2005

• Well.. it doesn't look like anyone was stopping her getting an abortion; they wanted foetal tissue to get DNA evidence. So the social worker seems indeed to have obstructed justice.
• I agree with Chyren; however, the abortion issue is only going to get nastier. This case won't help the pro-lifers.
• This case won't help anyone.
• Wouldn't a sample of amniotic fluid provide the needed DNA? That could have been done, then the abortion, giving everyone what they needed.
• Yes, that is a good question.
• Did the cops tell the girl ahead of time that they wanted a sample? Or did they just decide to fuck with her after she got the abortion?
• It's a good question, but somehow the concept of "damn the torpedos, let's scorch some earth!" occurs to me. "Calculation" or "orchestration" doesn't seem far-fetched. Maybe I'm just cynical or paranoid. My, what a lovely precedent.
• I'm not excusing the underlying crime, of course. Rape is what it is. But someone's laying some groundwork, in my opinion.
• I don't actually know what happens to an aborted fetus. I assume, then, that the remains are cremated/incinerated and nothing is kept? The linked article is distressingly short to get a discussion going on, especially given that Chyren summarised it so well. How far along was she? Could the abortion have waited a few days longer so the police could gather evidence? Was there no other evidence?
• The Mutaween would be proud.
• There was probably plenty of other available evidence. What I am reading from this is that regardless of other available means to obtain evidence, it is now a crime to obstruct justice by facilitating an abortion. If you don't understand the perverted system that is American case law, I suggest you not be surprised when this becomes the case that proves the exception.
• She was two to four months pregnant when it was discovered that she was pregnant. One month later, the police tell the social worker that the DNA evidence must be collected and that she needs to inform the police where and when the girl is going to have an abortion. On week later, the girl goes out of town to have an abortion and the police were not notified.
• I maintain my position; it was not relevant to law enforcement to know that information. They could have collected evidence on their own. DNA evidence can be collected after the fact, even years later.
• Not if they've chucked the foetus in the trash.
• Chyren, the fetus is not irrelevant (surprise, I am a nasty pro-life zombie) here; it is the fact that her victim status is not dependant on her pregnancy. DNA evidence can be collected amytime after the fact, as least in my cosmology. Why criminalize a child and a social worker unless the agenda's apace?
• oops, I got tangled in the words: the fetus is isn't relevant in this case. sorry
• Well, it is. They want the father's DNA, and that will only be found, so long after the rape, by looking at the fetus and/or amniotic fluid and/or placenta.
• pro-life? Does that mean you're against abortion? Guess what, I'm against abortion too. That's right, left-leaning polemicist Chy is against abortion. I just think that the issue is more complex than making a blanket determination over it. Abortion can be necessary, but imho, it would have to be *very* early, like within a week or so from conception, when it's just a bundle of cells, otherwise it is unacceptable, imho. I disagree with the voodoo spooky religioid mumbo-jumbo about the egg being infused with a soul at the moment of conception, but I don't have enough scientific knowledge to know when a foetus can be called independant life; I suppose when it has a brain, a heart and a spine. In fact, I defy even the most medically or scientifically trained person to define when life or consciousness actually begins; I certainly wouldn't trust a fucking priest to tell me. It remains an unanswerable question that must be treated with utmost caution. But I am against abortion, because you can't be against murder and killing things and be pro-abortion.
• Is there a way we can douse either of the people here in water? Otherwise, how shall we know if they float like a duck, and are therefore a witch? --Pogo
• I fully admit to being a practitioner of witchcraft!
• I'm anti-life, especially around Halloween. Fuckin' kids.
• Well, Mr. Chyren, I am against abortion; I even support your "murder atnd killing things" and abortion conflation above. But with a condition. I had an abortion, and it was the most expedient thing I have ever done. Yes, I'll say it. It was easy, convenient, subsidized (by parents) and everyone told me it was my only option. And I went to college, got a degree, and a nice career. Problem is, I continue to be haunted by the person I might have given birth to. Am I against abortion? Yes. Do I deny anyone their individual choice? No. Go through what I did; if you can survive the nightmare, then you can live the dream.
• Of course, this has nothing to do with the post at hand (sorry, SAD already kicking in because of time change).
• Well, I'm pro abortion and pro capital punishment; essentially, I ride around on a snorting black horse with fiery red eyes in the dead of night and randomly shoot anything that moves. I also have some asshole threatening me tonight with lawyers, demanding I give him $2,500. Which puts me in an extra pissy mood. So much so that I'll go for my midnight ride stinkin' drunk with extra ammunition in my ominously menacing black saddlebags of freaked-out scary destruction! "Fuck the fuckers!" is my battle cry!
• Perhaps the State would compel her to delay her abortion. What is the greater wrong, that a statuatory rapist go free, or that a woman be prosecuted for an abortion? Funny that it happened in North Carolina, and not California.
• Wouldn't a sample of amniotic fluid provide the needed DNA? That could have been done, then the abortion, giving everyone what they needed. posted by moneyjane at 01:19AM UTC on October 31, 2005 Yes, that is a good question. posted by Chyren at 01:30AM UTC on October 31, 2005 WHY ARE YOU TWO BEING SO NICE TO EACH OTHER? DON'T YOU REALIZE I'M LOOKING TO BE ENTERTAINED, HERE??
• That's true. Chyren? You are a bum face. Also, I took all your crayons and threw them in a lake. And it made me happy.
• moneyjane said bum. Uh-huh.huh. Wait. That's not very funny.
• In essence, whatever your ideals and attitudes may be, it is up to the individual woman/girl whether she has an abortion or not. Fact: there are millions of human animals born every year only to die in the most appalling of circumstances, often in great pain and agony. There are millions of lives which are irreparably damaged due to many different circumstances, not least of which is one which begins with being an unwanted child. Ultimately, almost every woman who does choose to have an abortion, for whatever the reason, suffers for that too. Women are damned if they do, and damned if they don't - but they must pursue their right to choose. No male human animal can possibly imagine the effect that having a child has upon a woman, no matter how empathic, sensitive or aware they may be, or whether Wiccan, Buddhist, Christian or a follower of the numerous other 'isms' in the world. All human creatures are flawed in some way or another but we also have characteristics and attributes which are often wonderous and remarkable. "What might have been" is of no value to any of us unless tempered with the realisation that there are many living who need the effort, attention and love of those who are able to contribute more due to a timely abortion - again, for whatever the reason. Rather than with a logical rational perspective, the "abortion issue" is more often debated from a personal and emotional perspective which is generated by the powerful and inate imperative (in MOST human creatures) to nurture and care for our young. Just as this imperative exists in other living creatures. This is 'hard-wired' into our DNA, and necessarily so otherwise all living creatures, including human, would die out rather rapidly. Those who are fanatically pro-life are most often those who are destructive of life. Their actions are often as irrational, fanatic and inhumane as are the actions of any terrorist. I have met many women over the years who have been in a situation where abortion was the only rational option, this includes my mother. She would have died otherwise, leaving three very young children to suffer without her. In the main, it is extremely rare indeed for a woman to take the necessity of abortion lightly. Unfortunately it is often the miniscule minority who gain the most media attention.
• I don't see this at all as a prolife/choice issue. The social worker got the girl an abortion early. The police aren't charging her for having an abortion, they're charging the social worker for, essentially, bringing about the destruction of evidence. There are so many ways this could have been done better: the police could have called for the clinic/hospital to retain the fetal remains if they'd had some warning, for example. There's nothing to say the girl is being punished for having an abortion, there's nothing to say she was coerced into an abortion. Chances are she would have had one anyway, but for whatever reason the social worker helped her get one early. I don't see anywhere that the abortion, as it stands, is the issue, but rather the timing and lack of communication with law enforcement. I think it's a mistake to turn this into an abortion rights issue. I think it's comparable to, say, cremating a murder victim before the wounds are examined.
• hello - communication - abortion - foetus available for DNA sample - problem solved!!!!!!!!
• It *is* up to the woman. It is her choice. It doesn't change the fact that abortion is also wrong. Some times we have to make decisions that lead to actions which on their own are wrong. This is life. That old Star Trek saying (which is actually from Taoism I think, not Roddenberry) the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Right, that's true. If it turns out stem-cell research can heal millions of people, then yes, we will need tissue from embryos. And it will be the right thing to do to use terminated foetuses for that source, at least until we can clone them or culture them or whatnot. My wife had an abortion 10 years ago, so I know all about that side of it. At the time, I hadn't really thought thru the philosophical and ethical sides of it, I simply thought, we can't afford to look after a kid, it's life will be hell, plus we're both fucked in the head. It's just a bundle of cells right now and not a human being, so just flush it. Since then I have learned that things aren't quite so simple. If you leave it up to these fucking religious maniacs, a woman suffering an ectopic pregnancy would go to term and they'd let both her and the child die, and say 'oh it's god's will'. This makes me incredibly angry. Obviously in a case like that you have no choice but to abort. Things are complex.
• Actually, this has depressed the fucking shit out of me.
• Well, I said it before, but if my little baby had been aborted instead of being abandoned, I wouldn't have known anything about it. I would, however, have been living in a different dimension in which this stuff never happened. This is the abortion thread, make of it what you will.
• No, this is the depressing thread based on a news link, that made me drink tonight. I did write a country tune on my accoustic about killing rednecks, however, so it's not all a loss.
• I did write a country tune on my accoustic about killing rednecks As you sat on the porch with your brother Billy-bob sippin' moonshine.
• I can't believe you need a thread to make you drink. Girl, I'm gonna miss you.
• The only person the social worker helped is the (statutory) rapist. I can't see any other reason why she wouldn't notify police like she was asked.
• Perhaps the parents of the 14 year old girl were freaked enough by their child getting an abortion, that the social worker believed that getting the police involved would cause the parents would flip and then compel the girl to have the baby. --Pat
• s/would flip/to flip/
• I am trying to imagine what legal or logical justification there is for charging the social worker - but not the formerly pregnant teenager - with this crime. It seems to me that if justice was in fact obstructed, then they were clearly both parties to it. The fact that they're only going after the social worker - the person most politically vulnerable, and the one with the most to lose if she's convicted - makes me inclined to believe that this isn't about obstruction of justice, it's about punishing those who have or facilitate abortions. According to this, North Carolina requires minors to have not just parental notification but outright permission to get an abortion. I guess the social worker was helping the teen evade this requirement. It sounds to me like someone in North Carolina is desperate to punish someone, anyone, for the fact that a North Carolina citizen found a way around North Carolina abortion regs.
• I'm pro-choice, but the requirement for parental permission sounds like a good idea to me. Nobody should be allowed to perform any medical procedure on a child without the parents' consent. As a father, I'd be very pissed if any social worker or medical professional had that kind of access to and power over my daughter.
• I'm pro-choice, but the requirement for parental permission sounds like a good idea to me. And to me too, except that it doesn't protect those girls who were raped by family members, particularly fathers.
• Astonishing that in a state where Christian fundamentalism is as hale and hearty as a red-neck's pig, such a case would be brought by any police force, and against someone who's actions had prevented them from taking a tissue sample from an aborted foetus. Since stem-cell research is viewed with such righteous horror, one would have thought that ANY such use of aborted foetal tissue, whether evidence or not, would have generated outrage of Katrina-like proportions. Lagged2Death has probably bounced firmly on the button of the real issue there.
• And now the case has been dismissed.
• So the mother knew and presumably supported the abortion. I wonder if the girl was (for whatever reason) hiding the evidence, perhaps to protect the man in question.
• That would be my guess...she didn't want him charged. If that was the case, and the social worker helped in any way, then the obstructing justice charge was justified.
• Anyone reminded of Roman Polanski? All I can think about is the terrors of the Holocaust during the Pianist¡