October 30, 2005

• Do y'all have plans to end up together again? You said you stayed behind due to the lack of prospects -- does that mean you're not going to follow her? Is she planning on coming back to where you are? Eventually you need to end up both living in the same place, or, yes, your relationship will grow stale, and eventually it won't be a relationship.
• After two transatlantic years, my advice is: * First, forget about the price of the phone calls. If you worry about it, you're doomed. However painful the expense, it will be worth it. * Now, be spontaneous about calling. Every time you feel the urge to call, do it. It's hard to have a good conversation under these circumstances, so you have to seize every opportunity. Try to arrange things so there isn't an obligation to call every X days at Y o'clock. * It's OK to call to say something exciting, or to complain about something. But don't call when you have nothing to say. You'll end up saying nothing or arguing. * But don't let your overall frequency of calling dwindle. Really, every time you feel the urge, call. * Find time to talk about really dumb stuff, the kind of stupid boring stuff people actually talk about when they're living together. Like the annoying person on the bus who talked too loud. Especially, all the stuff that affects how you feel, even if it's trivial. Your partner will care. * Make sure you feel able to put the phone down when there's nothing to say. Call back 2 minutes later if you think of something. Long pauses are awkward, but getting a second call straight away is fun! * SEND GIFTS! There's nothing more exciting than a gift from your partner far away. They don't have to be expensive. Send lots of tiny gifts often. [* I know you don't want to hear this, but get your partner to try IM. It really helps with the slience problen, and it's really hard to start an argument over IM.]
• I second the gifts suggestion. A simple cardboard cutout in an envelope or a cheap postcard will do. Phone calls are important. Of course, you'll begin to weigh their worth when the next phone bill arrives. So yes, IM or better yet, Skype would help a lot. Even better, video chat (Yahoo, iChat) which needs some resources like a webcam, and a fast connection. It might take some expense and some tweaking to make those options work, but would be the best to keep some of the bonding.
• I think you're in trouble. When I have seen long distance work, it has been when the relationship begins that way. I am not sure that I have seen it work when people move apart after a long time of being together. I think that you either have to move out there or you have to have concrete dates and plans to hold onto for marriage or moving.
• No substantive advice to add; just wanted to counter wingnut's pessimism with a quote from my favorite movie:

  [Buttercup:] We'll never survive. [Westley:] Nonsense -- you're only saying that because no one ever has.

  If the relationship is strong, you can find a way to make it work. What precisely that "way" is - I'll leave to the relationship experts out there.
• So the lady has left, placing her career before your relationship! Unless she is a very unusual person indeed, this is an ominous sign (enlightened 21st century ideals notwithstanding!) Your relationship may continue long-distance for a while, at least until she has settled in to her new environment and begins to feel more secure there, but ultimately you may be on a 'hiding to nothing' on this SimianXY.
• In England there are various options for cheap calls - alternative phone providers, numbers you dial before your call, or phone cards.
• Simian XY asks about communication. Perhaps we should keep answers practical, unless S/he wants to open up the discussion to general advice.
• OK. Does "not very computer savvy" = "doesn't have a computer at all"? If she can use even basic computer applications, she should be able to handle Skype, which would make (high-quality) calls free. If she can't, you can still use SkypeOut, which, depending on which country she's moved halfway across, could significantly lower the calling rate. (You might even be able to use SkypeIn to get yourself a number in her local area code, allowing her to easily and cheaply call you.) Either way, I agree with what's been said before that having a set calling frequency will create awkwardess. Talk when you need to or want to - no more, and certainly no less.
• I third, fourth, or whatever seeing if she can't get set up with instant messenger. My husband and I spent three months apart about a year and a half ago (he was in New Jersey and I was in Texas trying to sell our house) and IM made it possible. Also, a weekend together every so often is a good thing. I couldn't stand being apart from my husband too long, so we saw each other once a month. The second month, we decided "screw it, I'm moving up there and we'll sell the house long-distance", so that's what we did. And if your SO really is no longer interested, a weekend together will probably clue you in so you can get on with your life where you are.
• Yeah, sorry to say it, but experience shows that distance really does make the heart go yonder. Find a way to visit out there quick to see if you get the feeling that's she's still trying. (See how she introduces you to new friends, work people, if she tries to hide you...) I've only ever seen one long distance relationship work out. And that's because they took "breaks".
• Telecommunication doesn't have to be spoken. (NSFW)
• Bah. Ignore the naysayers. I am surrounded by people who are making long-distance relationships work. It isn't easy but it is possible. Some more relevant thoughts: * Make long-term plans. Being apart is doable so long as you have a plan for how the separation will be resolved eventually. * Visit when you can and try to involve yourself in your partner's life as much as possible. Meet her new friends, go to her new places. And make the effort to ask about them on the phone. * Of course, visiting can be weird too -- I always feel intruded upon and irritable for the first day or so after being alone for a while.
• I have friends who have made long distance relationships work. (The best example are two women. I don't know your gender, but I don't tend to believe the idea that women and men are fundamentally different in relationships.) Anyway, they were apart for a year, and they made it work by talking on the phone often (though not necessarily every day at a set time), sending lots of cards and seeing each other at least every three months. It gives you something to look forward to (they said it returned their relationship to one more like dating, which was fun), and it also gives you regular "check ups" on how well things are going. I would also get her to look into learning an instant messenger. I use MSN, and the newest version supports audio (you can just hook up a microphone and talk) and video (via webcam) for free. It also has games and other little activities. It keeps me in touch with my far-away friends and is invaluable. Don't automatically think that this isn't going to work. Long distance relationships take effort, and every one works differently. (You may stay exclusive, you may decide to date other people, you may switch back and forth. You may talk all the time or rarely... whatever works for you.) Your awkwardness could be built around the fact that she's unhappy and doesn't want to sound whiny, or she (or you) may not be very good phone talkers. That's a skill that's learned, and can get better.
• I've been in a long distance relationship for a couple years now, and it's got a couple more years to go... But IM is what makes it work. Because you can still have all the spontaneous stupid conversations, and comments about nothing in particular, that are really important... We call occasionally, but I'm not big on phones so not that often. We do see each other once or twice a month now, though, since we only live four hours apart and not half a country. We didn't start out seeing each other that much but it really is hard being apart for a long time, and I'd drive that eight hours every weekend if I could. Communication is essential though, and talking on a schedule will get to be a chore. My sister has also managed a (not quite as long-term) long distance relationship without the benefit of IM for half of it, and in that kind of situation it's really "take any opportunity to talk that you can". Mostly I'd advise your SO to figure out IM, if she has a computer. Talking on the phone is difficult for some people, myself included, and I know I could not sustain a relationship based just on phone calls. But if you're stuck with them... I'll third or fourth the advice to call whenever you feel like it, talk for however long you want (even if it's just two minutes, because you had something you had to tell her about - my boyfriend does that rather often about funny road signs and such), and don't ever end up feeling like you have to call now even if you have nothing to say, just because it's scheduled.
• But now she's gone, and while we've spoken on the phone every day since she left, some thing's lacking. Our conversations are often stilted and punctuated with uncomfortable pauses. The Lady Squid and I lived in different states for exactly one year - and it was absolutely miserable. The nightly phone calls were awful, and no fun, and less and less interesting. But, we tried to see each other at least once a month. My advice? Find an exact date. Seriously, find the exact date, and look forward to that. If you don't have it, kiss your relationship goodbye. What kept me and the missus going was the fact that we had a date to look forward to, when we would finally be reunited. (For us, it was Late Summer - Fall 2005). Fortunately, (believe it or not), she lost her job in mid summer 2005, and allowed her to move closer to me. And, everything got -much- better. On the other hand, a coworker of mine, who was living in Portland, while his wife was getting her Master's in Atlanta ended up moving here (Louisiana). She then decided to get her PhD in Michigan. Since he couldn't find work up there, he stayed here. Needless to say, without a decent, proximate goal, their relationship fell apart. Imagine three straight years without your s/o, then imagine another 2-3 on top of that. Get a date. Get a date when you will live together. Make it soon. Without that, you're screwed. Seriously.
• Here's something that hasn't come up that should've; do you want a long distance relationship? Does she? Do you want one with each other? Do you want to have the same relationship you had before with someone you may now subconsciencely resent for having really, truly actually left? She chose, and it wasn't you. Even though one can support someone 100% in a decision in their head, their heart is a different matter. Many logical and stand up plans simply can't support the emotional weight they're asked to carry. You may have to sort out how you really feel about that before any kind of communication will work. Otherwise, what you're not talking about will kill it.
• >So the lady has left, placing her career before your relationship! >She chose, and it wasn't you. People keep saying this- the fact is, you also chose, and it wasn't her. If you really want to be together, find a way to be in the same place. It's possible to get through a protracted separation if the plan is to eventually be in the same place. Otherwise, there's no point. But also consider the possibility that you have both already chosen something else.
• Mrs. Tool and I endured 14 months long-distance, went straight from that to cohabitation, and have now been happily married for over two years. Actually, I lied: we didn't endure those 14 months, we flourished under them. We grew closer. A big part of the reason why was we made sure we were a daily part in each other's lives. That meant talking or IM'ing every single day, whether we felt like it or not, just as we knew it would be when we moved in together. As a result, our communication level, while not perfect, is twice as good as most of our newly-married friends, because that was almost all of our relationship for over a year. We talked 99% of the time, and saw each other for hugs and picnics and shopping and fucking an average of maybe once every three or four weeks. When you're forced to operate on that level, you learn very quickly if your relationship's got the stuff. You also have to have something you're working toward, a time when the two of you will be living in similar zip codes. In other words, if you want her more than what you've got where you are, you need to be doing everything you can to find work and get to her, or otherwise the strain will quickly become unbearable, so if she's what you want, it's time for a very specific plan, now. If not, as moneyjane said, it's time to cut the cord. It doesn't bode well that your conversations haven't been better, but it doesn't necessarily mean the death knell, either. However, cutting back on contact will not help, IMO. You need to be talking earnestly right now about what you want and discussing ways to get it. It's not easy to do, but if you can't do it, then your relationship is over. As to practical considerations, if you don't have the money to burn on long distance or cell minutes, then she's going to have to learn to use a computer, period. Google chat allows for voice contact, and it's easy-peasy. (Mrs. Tool and I used MSN's back in the day, and its freeness was a godsend.) Skype's another good option too. But seriously -- I assume she's smart enough to operate a phone and e-mail, given that she was offered this job. If she possesses that bare minimum of tech proficiency, she can figure out IM or Skype. At the very least, she can probably bribe a coworker with pizza and beer to hook her up and show her how to use it.
• It sounds obvious, but one of the great things about Skype (and similar) is that the call is free. So my friends and I now have the habit of just leaving a skype call open for the whole evening. It feels a bit odd at first after so many years of using phones only for full-fledged conversations, but it's nice to just do your work or surf or watch TV or whatever and only say something if you feel like it.
• My husband and I have just endured two years of near constant separation due to his job. At first, we called all the time. Then it settled into a regular daily thing right after dinner or before bed. I finally had to tell him that unless either of us really had something to say other than the usual "I miss you" and "I love you" that calling every day was just getting more and more depressing and that we should only call when we have things to actually tell or ask each other. When we sat down and thought about it, we often had long evenings at home together where we really didn't say too much, and it seemed silly to sit on the phone and just listen to each other breath or try to make conversation when nothing much had been going on with either of us. Also, then when we did talk on the phone (about every two or three days) we had things to say and the calls were less depressing and quiet. For me, I found it better to get/make fewer calls and not always at the same time than to expect a call every night and not have anything at all to say except a retelling on mundane stuff like "I went grocery shopping." So maybe start out with the advice someone else gave to call whenever you feel like it (because we did that a lot of first), and then not plan to talk every day unless there's actually something to say. And good luck ... long distance relationships are hard, but as someone else said, planning to get back into the same area and setting some sort of date to do that does give you something to look forward to. Visiting is a good idea. I couldn't do that, because my husband was all over the place in hotels, but I would have had it been possible (and of course, he snuck home whenever he could).
• I think giant squid makes a good point about setting a timeframe for your eventual reunion. Goal-setting is important psychologically in any endeavour. My wife had spent more time apart (14 months in total)than we were together (about 11) before we got married. It was necessary to get married to be able to stay together, but after we had already maintained our relationship over a very long distance (Germany to Australia) it was an easy decision (this coming from someone who feels uneasy about getting the State involved in any personal relationship). Communication and having a goal in view were the keys. Having said that, I think it takes the right kind of people, if you have short attention spans, it will be difficult to work it out.
• Hmm... where are Dreadnought and jb? They should be able to throw some good advice into the mix (^_^)
• Our conversations are often stilted and punctuated with uncomfortable pauses. oh, honey....i feel really mean and horrible saying this, but i've been through this and i KNOW it's true, and deep down, so do you.... it's already over. she left you.
• I hate to be a pessimist, but my experiences have mirrored those of sexyrobot's. If something doesn't feel right, then it probably isn't. If we're wrong then you all need to be getting yourselves cheap ass phone cards or decent long distance plans or cells from the same provider. Or maybe you need to be getting a number local to her from vonage. Something that makes spontaneous chats possible. Good luck, simian xy. This shit ain't ever easy.
• Dude, it's not the end. I hate talking on the phone. I get all tongue-tied and either start talking too fast until I run out of breath, or just clam up and speak in monosyllables. Everyone is different. When #2 goes away for work (which he's doing next week, for two weeks, eek!), he'll call me from some exotic (he wishes) locale and I'll come up with a whopping total of five words to say to him, if I'm lucky. I don't consider stilted conversations to mean jack in terms of a relationship.
• "LOVE" IS A POISONOUS LIE THAT WILL TAUNT YOU WITH FALSE PROMISES OF HAPPINESS AND CRUSH YOUR HEART UNDER A JACKBOOT OF CRUEL LONELINESS.
• Umm, but I'm sure your relationship will work out fine, actually.
• If either of you are very visual, video phone helps a lot. Dreadnought and I (now married) were long distance for 3 years (with summers together). But we needed different things - I needed to talk a lot, and he needed to see me. So we had video and phone (Skype and a separate webcam - but I think there are some programs that do both). That's what made us feel connected. Two years is a really solid base on which to be long distance. I worry about people who are long distance after only a short time, but much less so about people who already have a strongly established relationship. That doesn't mean there won't be some strains, especially if you aren't clear about where you would like the relationship to go. But people can be overly pessimistic.
• Calling out of obligation or duty is the worst. If you have something to share, however small or mundane, do it. If you're calling because it's seven on Tuesday, forget it. That turns your other into a burden right quick, and the relationship goes into its death spiral. At least that's what I've found. That one time I had a long-distance relationship. Which didn't manage to break my two-month barrier anyway. Which means that my advice is, as usual, of no use whatsoever. In summary, then, what quid said.
• Mr. Koko and I started out long distance, so I don't have much advice, except that your SO should get a computer or laptop (if she doesn't already have one), and familiarize herself with a good chat program. Also frequent emails are helpful. If your phone calls are awkward, perhaps writing will work better for you. I hate the phone, but Mr. Koko and I would phone each other once a week, and I'd just sit there and listen while he droned on and on and on about whatever. Much the way it is today IRL. But if neither of you is someone who just loves to blather, frequent phoning won't work too well.
• Thanks to everyone for their advice, it is very much appreciated!
• See, you're doing it again! *cries*
• Who did what now?
• Oh sure, pretend like you don't know *snif*
• Ah, now ... Mr. Koko's just some dude I live with who cooks my meals! My heart will always belong to the monkeys! *rubs pete's tummy, gives him a cookie*
• *giggle, squeak*
• She can mention him as many times as she likes, as long as I still get to be Mr. Koko III.
• The full title is Mr. Koko III: Electric Boogaloo
• this time, it's personal.
• Ok...now I have this vision of all Monkeys suspended in the lonely electronic wasteland, pining for their long distance squeezes. My God people! Are we one to a tree or what? What causes this long distance aerialization of monkey love? Can we not fling our arms around each other pensively and stare like the Lemurs do?
• pensively I totally misread that.
• We need to have a monkeyfilter key party or something. There's way too much not getting laid around here.
• And yet we have moneyjane. Go figure.
• Not to mention Quidnunc.
• "LOVE" IS A POISONOUS LIE THAT WILL TAUNT YOU WITH FALSE PROMISES OF HAPPINESS AND CRUSH YOUR HEART UNDER A JACKBOOT OF CRUEL LONELINESS. True enough. But it's the [insert-your-deity]-given right of each human to find it out for her/himself. And the thought of a big, loud, hot & dirty monkey orgy just made me shudder. Imagine the squealing and oooking!
• It's a yin and yang kinda thing.
• I have no advice, but my wife and I have been together more than twenty years, are from different countries, and just got back from a year abroad because she wanted to pursue a career option on another continent. If you both want to be a couple, you will. Don't be selfish, be understanding, etc. In short, be as good to her as you would were you stumbling over one another's shoes every morning. Proximity kills as many relationships as does distance.
• Proximity kills as many relationships as does distance. That is a damn good point. Proximity kills all my relationships. Seriously. Other people give me the vapours. The swamp gas kind of vapours. Except for Quidnunc, but that's only because he's crazy and kinda hot. You know how it is. The beautiful ones are always crazy.
• My "lady friend" of ~2 years (at the time) went to Australia for the short term of a year or so. We had no ideas until the week of her leaving what would happen to our relationship in spite of knowing of the inevitability of it for almost two years. Of course, earlier in the relationship it wasn't much of an issue as we were fairly new with each other and the ominous shadow of seperation wasn't so looming as it became with such intense acceleration. Regardless, after a semester at UNSW she decided that Sydney was enough like Vancouver (in the respects of her stay) that she would just have a great trip and come home early. There were several factors affecting this: me (because we were maintaining the relationship), the cost of living in Sydney single, graduation would be sooner if she returned sooner (because of a specific course offering at UBC unavailable at UNSW and the clash of winter and summer between Australia and Canada), and that most of the really wonderful friends that she had made were also exchange students who were leaving as well. It was incredibly difficult to have her gone as long as she was gone, which I think turned out to be about seven months. We talked on the phone a lot, but the systems clashed constantly, and it was difficult to call spontaneously due to the time differences and our own busy schedules. We definately did not call each other every couple of days. At the most we talked two to three times a week, and that was plenty to have a decent conversation about whatever we had done. The worst part about it however was feeling like a castrated bachelor. I did well, in hindsight, by not having sex with anyone while she was gone, but it drove me to drink more heavily. At the same time, I felt single. I hate phone conversations and so I tend to have them (in any form over three minutes long) only during the early period of dating a girl. Because this was my only contact with my girlfriend, it felt like we had just started over, which she felt too (probably for the same reasons), but she thought that was good. I didn't. Still, I had the benefit of knowing she would be coming back home in time. Right now she's asleep on the sofa in our new apartment. By the way, she just came back to Vancouver in August.
• Would I do it again? It's hard to say. Probably not for as long. But I may have to do it for a few months next summer for field school. Still, it will be me the Southwest Pacific then, so at least the fun of something new and different will be distracting me. Since it is you who is staying and your girlfriend sho is leaving I can empathise enought with the fact that your local has gone a shade greyer and some empty wind is hanging around behind your neck, but it seems even more desolate that she isn't holding a return ticket. One thing I really want to offer to you without trying to plug some company is about long distance charges. I went through several phone cards that all offered specific rates that were all false. Never trust what the rates are even if they specifically state differences between calling from/to a cell/land line. There are so many hidden fees that drop what they claim should be six-hundred minutes down to twenty-five. My roommate at the time had begun a long distance relationship, as well. He would read his girlfriend stories over the phone when they had nothing to talk about (they seriously began their relationship a week before she left for Calgary so they really didn't have that much to talk about). He made the mistake of not figuring out a long distance plan. I feel ashamed for what I am about to do, so realize that the only reason I say this is because his phone bill was at least four times higher than mine and he was dialing about 700 kilometers away, nationally for a little less time than I was talking to my girlfriend (yet more frequently). I was calling over twelve times that distance internationally. If you live in Canada I suggest you look into Looney Talk, or whatever it's called. My girlfriend had been using Looney Talk for quite some time when talking to relatives throughout Canada and it still was probably the cheapest rates I could get internationally due to a loophole in their system. Basically, they charged me one dollar for twenty minutes of talking time which is about five cents a minute. After twenty minutes the rate incresed to something else like eight to twelve cents (for Aus, I can't really remmber). So I would just hang up every twenty minutes or so and dial again if we wanted to talk for longer. Sorry for the spam, but when you see your friend suffer a bill that apparently he couldn't pay, (his phone is now disconnected and I haven't heard from him) it's good to heads up others that people will ruthlessly profit off stupidity and laziness. And for those that say don't worry about the cost of phone bills: that's really hard to do when you have tecnically no income because of school. And if anyone read all this, goddamn I apologise for the length.
• "...goddamn I apologise for the length." Heh heh.
• Nice to see you back, coppermac! The biggest thing I learned about long distance relationships is that if you find yourself needing to make up things to talk about with the other person just to maintain a facade, you've lost it. I'll jump on the bandwagon that a regular call schedule is crap, and likely to cause resentment. If you're both commited to making this work, I recommend letters. Especially with you SO not being computer savvy, you could communicate a lot with a letter. A cute card with a picture of you inside (perhaps holding a sign that says "love you") says a lot more than a 10 minute phonecall scheduled a week in advance.
• The beautiful ones are always crazy /cries A cute card with a picture of you inside (perhaps holding a sign that says "love you") /cries like a howling baby Oh, erm, ok, stop it already, you people... *snif*
• "A cute card with a picture of you inside (perhaps holding a sign that says "love you") says a lot more than a 10 minute phonecall scheduled a week in advance." To me, it'd say "I am with the wrong person" and "GET OUT NOW". My apologies to those of whom that sort of schlock would work on. But that sort of Ziggy tactic carries no truck with me. Good lord, I'd be living in a 'Love Is' cartoon. There's no way I can respect someone who'd send THAT to me. Like that recent GF who gave me a tiny teddy bear in top hat and tails and said "I saw it and just had to think of you..." WTF? Gettouttaheah! You don't know me AT ALL. Sorry, what were we talking about again?
• Alright, but you asked: Long distance is teh suck. Never ever do it for any reason ever. And speaking of why all women are evil, conniving, twisted, sick, backstabbing hellions with lava for blood and . . . the . . . Is this kitfisto's party? *hic*
• why all women are evil, conniving, twisted, sick, backstabbing hellions with lava for blood God told us to kill you.
• 'God, not finding Man lonely enough, created Women'.
• Sorry I'm late to the thread... I've been busy. Yes, jb and I did long distance for three years. We did have breaks, but it went like this: 3 months away, one week together, three months away, 2 weeks together, three months away one week, two and a half months together, three months away... and so on. Mostly we had the summers together and any other time I could get away from Cambridge. The worst time was when we had a six month seperation, but three months was do-able. So how did we cope? jb is right above to say we used a camera and internet phone combination. I should expand on -how- we did this. Because the internet phone is essentially free to use, we werre able to turn it on and leave it on for hours at a time. We found that when you do this it is not so much like 'talking on the phone', which some people have professed to hate, and more like hanging out. Often I felt like we were just sitting on opposite sides of a thin wall. We also used a webcam link. This was very hard to set up because nobody makes software that makes a two way, secure, low bandwidth, video link. If there are any programmers out there, however, I'm sure long distance couples all over the world would be extremely grateful if our lashup were put into a more easy to operate, easily installable package. What we would do is turn the webcams on in each of our rooms and just leave them running. I had a little picture of jb's room in the corner of my screen and I could just look up and see what she was doing or if she was there. Now, rather than a thin wall between our rooms, there was a thin wall with a window in it. Actually, and I appologise if I'm getting all TMI here, but one of the things I really liked to do was watch jb -sleeping-. I woke up five hours ahead of her, so it was really nice to feel like we had a close connection even in the mornings when she wasn't there to hang out with on the phone. The point is, this technology allowed us to move spend a lot more time doing 'normal hanging out' as opposed to having regulated contact time like some kind of a prison visit. As to the poster's insitance that his/her partner is not computer savvy... well as other people have pointed out, this is one of those things she's just going to have to compromise on. If there is a very, very good reason she can't use a computer then I suppose that makes sense, but if she just doesn't know that much about it then I for one would insist that she just get her finger out and learn. Yes, I know that she might think this frustrating and dull, but it really isn't that much work to keep her relationship solid. I had to spend a lot of time coaxing jb to learn basic computer skills but, in the end, it was well worth it.
• Dreadnought, we tried to do the same thing, but it didn't work out very well due to schedules and a strangely unreliable Canadian-Australian telecom network. For some reason it always worked well from a land line here to a payphone in Aus. But all (the many) home telephones she used in Aus chowed pouch. Cell phones are just too expensive and the internet was, at best, unreliable. However, we did chat on MSN quite a bit in spite of this, but usually while she was at Uni.