October 18, 2005

• I'm not a legal anything but that sounds just plain wrong to me. I would return the pledge card with zero contribution and see what happens. Any repercussions for not contributing beyond that would, in my opinion, definitely be grounds for legal action if your job is threatened because of it. Total BS.
• I always thought it would be cool to have female twins and name them Scylla and Charybdis, but dont worry I have no intention of having children...
• From what I can tell, he did cross an ethical line, but only at the point that he is requiring that your card be returned to HR, rather than directly to the charity. By returning this to HR, there is a possibility that, because they know how much you do or do not donate, that this can have bearing on their view of you as an individual, and by extension, as an employee. I don't know if there's anything illegal about it, though. It's the fact that they can trace specifically WHO donates HOW MUCH that crosses the ethical boundary and has effectively made donation compulsory to prevent you being seen in a negative light.
• Welcome to 'Take a Stand Time', where your personal values are put to the test by risking your future well-being in a situation not of your choosing. Personally, I'd opt out and establish some shielding by writing in something like 'I have already tithed 10% of my income to my church this year and unfortunately cannot afford any more.' And possibly add 'How would I go about applying to have my church designated as the charity in next year's drive?', if you really want them to leave you alone.
• Just tell them that you contribute to charity via your church (or whatever). And CC those juicy emails to fuckedcompany.com.
• Offhand, the only legitimate reason I can think of for turning in the cards to HR is if they were matching funds or something, and they needed to have a clear total of what was turned in. Aside from that, it looks like intimidation and coercion. It's not a condition of your employment that you donate to charity. But at this point, I'm not convinced it's a legal problem just yet -- more like bad management and poor judgement. It's not a legal problem until you don't donate, and there are reprecussions as a result. It's only then that they've crossed the line. Until you can show some harm to you that resulted from not donating (as opposed to some other cause disciplinary action), there's basis for action. And do you really want to get to that point? Which makes this not so much a legal question as one of office politics. How far are you willing to prove a point over fifty bucks? You may be perfectly within all rights to refuse, but to demonstrate that may cost you a lot. (In the legal biz, we always ask how much it's gonna cost you to be right.) I'd be inclined to dicuss it with HR, see if you can get more information as to why it's all being done this way.
• Wow, so he's one of those charitable types. HINT: READ THE LAST LINE OF THE BLURB. Sounds like a great guy to me. In the way that exercising the one's will in a position of authority (which, according to all proponed theories today has historically and currently created socio-economic imbalances that in turn create and perpetuate poverty) he encourages that those with less power than he holds (and probably less affluence) take up the slack that he's creating. If he really believes in charity shouldn't he see a therapist about his deluded megalomania and just give the goddamn money over himself?
• the one's What?
• Go to the media.
• Why the fuck is this not coming out of corporate earnings? Or the CEO's predictably overinflated wallet?
• It's not a legal problem until you don't donate, and there are reprecussions as a result. It's only then that they've crossed the line. Yeah, just like it's not harassment until you get fired for not putting out. Wait, is sleeping with him one of your "donation" choices?
• My mom used to tell tales of her pharmacutical company taking the hard line approach to employees contributing to UW. And actually I chaired the UW drive at one of my previous non-profit jobs, but we were sort of pissed at them at the time, and didn't care that much. As a non-profit monkey, here's my 2 cents. The thing about United Way is that they basically just redistribute funds to other charities. IIRC, they have a fairly high overhead (percentage of money that pays for the cost of UW, vs what they re grant to other charities). And United Way chapters across the country have been accused of improprieties. So if you want your dollar to go futher, just distribute directly to the causes that you feel strongly about. Oh, and check the Wiki. This should give you more than enough reason to stick to your guns.
• United Way encourages shady tactics like this -- I have worked for SEVERAL companies with coercive policies about donating to United Way. I have never once seen another charity that "inspires" so many executives and management folks to force employees to donate more than they can afford. To make matters worse, they have HUGE overhead expenses compared to many other charities. In fact, that may well be why the United Way pushes so hard for all these donations -- they actually stand to gain from it, and not solely in a charitable sense. I've never seen Red Cross funding drives that were as blatantly coercive and guilt-trip filled as United Way fundraisers. Never. United Way, to me, seems like a hell of a scam for the people in charge. I wouldn't be surprised to learn executives who begin these coercive programs are getting kickbacks -- it's so pervasive, I can hardly see another explanation.
• From the Wikipedia: Non-donating employees may be forced to write a public explanation on why they do not want to participate, or just publicly outed in the workplace. United Way has made public that it doesn't support such measures, but has been slow to react on reports by employees that were coerced in such a way. The real question is: Why do employers go to this length with United Way fundraising -- and not with ANY OTHER CHARITY? If there aren't kickbacks or some sort of deals involved for these companies, why isn't this either a) done for every charity or b) never done?
• Send the envelope in the internal mail, and forget about it. CEO-man fucks you, fuck him!
• What Capt. Renault said. If your priciples (or the $50) are worth more to you that your career prospects with this company, then stick to your guns. If not, then pledge the $50 and be done with it. This is life as an employee. Pick your battles wisely, and use diplomacy. It may seem like a sell-out, but...okay, it is a sell-out. Welcome to the machine.
• The 'kickbacks' that management types receive from UW are probably more social than monetary. They're seeking recognition from their peers among the Chamber of Commerce set and see UW activities as another networking and PR opportunity. Your approach to giving is your own business, so if you don't want to particpate in the charade, just say that you give in other ways.
• What Capt. Renault and Rocket88 said. I do think, however, that you should be able to get away with giving less that $50, especially if you aren't making a ginormous salary. Write a little note on the card, saying that you'd budgeted out a certain amount for charitable giving this year, and you've maxed out that amount on Tsunami/Hurricane Katrina/Pakistan Earthquake relief. Your note should go on to say that you'd like to participate, but given your stated budget constraints, you can only afford to give $__ at this time. Make it a smaller number. You won't get flagged as a "zero" if HR is keeping tabs, but you're not shelling out $50 either. And talk to your co-workers and see what they think. If enough of you separately go to HR, they may back down.
• Don't forget that part or all of this donation is going to be tax-deductable (assuming you're getting the receipt instead of the company). You're going to pay that fifty bucks to either the United Way or to the feds. You're going to be strong-armed over it either way. Knowing that it's going to be paid anyway may ease your battle of conscience.
• u're going to pay that fifty bucks to either the United Way or to the feds. Donating $50 to charity doesn't reduce your tax liability $50, only a percentage of $50.
• Just to nitpick Capt. Renault - that fifty bucks isn't going to come out of your taxes, just your taxable income. You'll not pay taxes on the fifty bucks but you'll be out 50 bucks as opposed to having to pay taxes on it. TenaciousPettle, I think that what the company's doing is shitty but your question was whether you should be worried or not. I would think that this is a function of your local company politics, more specifically what your direct manager thinks about this debacle. If s/he is of a similar mind to you, I wouldn't worry. If s/he drinks freely of the management kool-aid, I'd look at the more pragmatic options people are suggesting rather than my own personal opinion of giving them the finger and tearing up the card.
• Fine, fine.
• If I were in this situtation, I'd donate to someone else (Doctors Without Borders is my usual choice). I would then return my card to HR with a note explaining why I do not donate to UW (see kimdog's comment above.) I would also thank them for providing an opportunity to provide charity. I would save a copy of this for my records. Simple. Nothing more to worry about, unless the CEO is stupid enough to act against you for this. In which case, you don't want to work there at all.
• I wouldn't give at work. There's something about your story that makes me furious. I understand companies wanting to have a charitable image in the community. But coercing people to give at work is just beyond me. My advice (and only because I'm furious right now): send the card back with a zero donation. If they follow up with another attempt to get you to donate, your response should be a well-written memo outlining not only the actual percentage of administrative costs that come out of a donation to UW, but also the current whereabouts of UW officials who were indicted for "misuse of donations." If you're already donating to charities or volunteering, list those groups. End the memo with something like, "There are countless worthy causes around the world that deserve our time and money, and I choose to donate directly to the charities that are important to me and my community." Keep all the emails and memos and the card and make notes of what you remember of the UW presentation. Maybe you'll need them for an employment attorney, maybe not.
• A couple of points..from another non-profit type who has worked closely with the UW in the past.. 1. I agree, the United Way is questionable in terms of overhead and how they distribute funds (at least in my area), I don't trust the judgement they show and would not allow them to make that decision for me. 2. That said, in almost any United Way, you can designate where the funds go, you can name the non-profit (and it doesn't need to be one of the local UW's funded agencies) anywhere in the country. UW will get a cut of your donation as a fee, but it's usually in the 10% range. 3. Rather than incur the wrath of your boss, designate the funds to something you would support anyway.... everyone is happy. (if anyone is in the same position and needs someplace to designate a donation to, I can give you the name of a great little non-profit youth agency that I happen to work at :) 4. What they are doing is done all the time, is not illegal, but, bottom line..if you want the job, why not keep the boss happy.. (see #3 above)
• ...wow. I'm now glad that I work for a nonprofit. They only pressure us to give to ourselves, which is at least amusing. :/
• That is a dick tactic. Most people are concerned about your employment prospects if you refuse. I think the bigger question is; do you really want to work there with some asshole "I'm Rick James, Bitch" CEO?
• I would totally work with Rick James.
• When my mother was a swinging divorcee in the early 1960s, she lived in the apartment across the hall from the secretary to the local United Way head. This was 40 years ago, but the stories my mother told of what happened on the company dime have always left me with a bad impression of United Way. I didn't give to the United Way in my last big corporate job because the local United Way (Houston) didn't support Planned Parenthood. There wasn't pressure to contribute at my level, but my husband, who was a manager in another part of the office, was leaned on a little to contribute. He didn't either. We were eventually both laid off, but that was part of a series of layoffs that eventually closed the office as the project we were all working on was outsourced. In our case, it was easy to decide between our principles (very strong pro-choice principles) and our pocketbooks (minimal risk of firing or layoff above what we were already looking at). Your decision, TenaciousPettle, looks a lot tougher. Best of luck to you in solving it in a way that doesn't leave a bad taste in your mouth. Given your discomfort at this behavior, it may be worth investigating other opportunities in your field. on preview: or, what moneyjane said.
• I never give to any charity that asks me. It doesn't really seem like charity if I'm talked/guilted into it. When I want to give, I seek out a chariry or organization.
• or a "charity"
• Name your baby Google.
• Or you could just tell them that you already give quite generously to the topless.
• Thanks for all the responses, guys. I'm really leaning more toward the goose-egg contribution and just-dare-them-to-do-something stance. I'm not against giving to charity, but as I said above, the strong-arm tactics just rub me the wrong way. And yes, my principles are worth more than $50. I have talked to a few other employees, and they also smell something rotten about it. I don't know if that means they won't do it, though. Still, for me, I'd rather donate when and how and how much I feel right about--to diabetes-related charities, for instance, which we had a corporate drive for earlier this year without getting HR involved-- rather than this bullying behavior. And, as many have said, if I do get repercussions b/c of it, at that point it becomes a legal problem. For which eventuality I am forwarding these emails home. Of course, I may be reading it entirely wrong. There may be nothing in the way of repercussions other than a follow-up email that says, "Well, dang it, I didn't meet my goal. Let's do better next year." But I wouldn't buy windows from someone who pushed me too hard, and I certainly wouldn't work for that guy. I'm going to ask my supervisor tomorrow about whether he reads this as a mandatory request. He's a cool dude generally, or has been for two years. I'll post updates as they become available.
• har I just realized I put my comment in the wrong thread. d'oh
• I work for a huge corporation and our United Way drive is nearly as bad. I got at least half a dozen emails or personal requests to "give generously this year." and that "100% participation is the goal". Plus, every department seems to be required to do a fundraiser (ours was a bake sale). We are also required to return our pledge cards, but ours have a check box so you can specify that you don't want to contribute and no explanation is required. But your name's right there on the card so it's still a bit weird. My take on it is, you don't have to participate, and you don't have to tell them why you don't want to participate. It's none of their business.
• I would NEVER give to United Way, virtually any other charity is better than this one. This is the type of thing I would be totally willing to lose my job over--with a fight. It's utter bullshit. If it matters to you, take a stand. Personally, I think the United Way is a scam operation. Why not Red Cross, why not Salvation Army, why not something less........ corporate?
• I agree with those who think this is bullshit. If you're prepared to be kicked off the fast track in your company, or if you don't care about climbing the corporate ladder, I'd definitely not give into this kind of pressure. That said, I'd ask myself if this might be an opportunity to spark discussion of the company's charitable programs and policies in general. Specifically, I'd be interested in seeing whether the company might be willing to do something more directly beneficial to its immediate community. (That is, if your company isn't already doing something along these lines.) For instance, many companies give employees paid time off to volunteer (particularly at pre-selected charitable organizations). You could make the argument to your company (HR would be the place to start, I think) that encouraging employees to volunteer in the local soup kitchen or literacy center or whatever would enhance the company's standing in the community in a different but possibly even important way than donating money to the United Way does. In addition, you could point out that many companies find that having volunteer programs like this improves employee morale and employee retention. In other words, think about encouraging corporate charitable efforts that may be more flexible or in line with what most employees are interested in, using business-case arguments for what you're encouraging.
• why not Salvation Army Because they are horrible horrible bigots. But I get your general point.
• I work for a huge corporation and our United Way drive is nearly as bad. Same here. I hate United Way because both UW and the company cram this shit down our throats at work. Our HR staff even went so far as to put up a list of people who hadn't filled out their donation slips (one of which was me). That really pissed me off, because it was tantamount to public shaming. I find it insane that a huge corporation won't pay their workforce more than minimum wage, yet tries to guilt their employees into giving away money that they can ill afford to part with. The fact that this ill-gotten money then goes to pay the administration costs and high overhead of a scandal-ridden "charity" makes my blood boil.
• <snark> Never give up! There's always a light at the end of the tunnel! I believe in you! or did you actually want us to help you? </snark> Ugh. Yet another reason why I don't have a job right now.
• medusa: har I just realized I put my comment in the wrong thread. I just thought it was some bizarre Dadaist commenting aesthetic.
• You could turn it in with the following crudely scrawled message; "Sorry, spent all my money on crack, whores, guns and detailed maps of all your homes. Contact me if this poses a problem for you". Not only will you not have to donate...they won't fire you. Ever.
• *Hearts mj, searches for squeegee.*
• This kind of corporate-control-of-employees creep just infuriates me.
• TenaciousPettle, I wonder if you and I work for the same company. This is nearly word for word my experience. This year, one of us called personnel and was told the meetings were mandatory. I skipped it as I have every other year. We're always told we have to turn in our pledge cards whether we give or not. I have not turned one in in 7 years. I am subject to harassing phone calls, being flagged down and nagged in hallway, told that 100% contribution is expected. (I think the CEO and upper management that are getting huge bonuses and free golf trips while telling us we won't make this year's plan and we should start using both sides of the copy paper before shredding it should contribute my share...) I don't agree with the overhead costs of United Way, I certainly don't agree with their tactics, and I'd rather give to my favorite charities directly. I've been silently daring my company for seven years to do something about my not returning the cards. After the deadline, the nagging stops, the phone calls stop, and not one word is ever spoken about it again. This tells me that they know that they can't do anything about it. I've gotten a lot of raises and promotions, probably more than my fair share since I've worked there. But I'm not in with the politics and I know it'll hurt me one of these days. I guess I have no advice, but this whole thing makes me furious, too.
• make that "nagged in hallways"
• I'm vaguely tempted to contact UW and tell them I want to get my monkey crew involved, just to find out what the kickbacks are.
• You could do what I do. Turn in the card, pay the $50, hate yourself and make a promise you'll never do that again...until the next time they ask.
• Bleah. I don't miss office politics one damned bit. I'd turn the card in with a zero donation, and if anyone bothered me about it, I'd give 'em my frostiest Emily Post response: "I consider charity a private matter." Good luck - seriously.
• "I consider charity a private matter." Yay, go you. Couldn't agree more.
• medusa: har I just realized I put my comment in the wrong thread. I just thought it was some bizarre Dadaist commenting aesthetic. posted by the_bone at 02:29AM UTC on October 19, 2005 *blows beer through nose........ow.*
• Funny thing -- my company just had an early morning meeting today, and we were told about a UW donation drive. They said they wanted 100% participation. If they don't get it, we have to attend a special meeting and watch a UW presentation. Huh. I'm beginning to sense a pattern.
• They sure have Google sewn up tight as far as searching for UW and 'force' or 'coercion', but here's a guy who got in trouble for not pitching in.
• I've been looking at this on the internets for a while now. Here are some teamsters complaining about the same problem at UPS in 2003. An angry letter regarding the Florida Dept. of Corrections from an employee in 2004. UW is careful to have all of their regions put out lip service on their formal coercion policy.: Unted Way of the Bay Area United Way of the Inland Valley United Way of the Capital Region Callaway County United Way Every single United Way chapter seems to parrot this on their web site. Just the fact that there's a widespread need to address coercion tells me it's a widespread problem... The training seems to be pretty standard, reading through campaign leader how-to brochures. Have the CEO ask for participation, demand the cards back whether someone is giving or not, call and nag employees who don't give cards back. The way it's written seems harmless, though. Are the companies the ones who are turning this into a strongarm competition, or is it coming down from United Way? 8 to 10 steps for a successful campaign: Dallas Passaic North Central Mass.
• Thanks for the link. An even better reason for me no t to contribute, since I have close relatives who are gay. Dang those Boy Scouts! Seriously though, I'm thinking of filing a protest somewhere. I can see that UW has tried to cover its legal ass with all this, "We encourage peer encouragement rather than executive encouragement," but it's pretty clear that this is standard operating procedure.
• Tool, get Mrs. Tool on the phone. I smell an expose.
• No shit. I too have decided to refuse.
• I was just looking at the pledge card that they're requiring me to hand back, and as far as I can see there is not even a checkbox for "I do not wish to give." I guess I'll just pencil in "$00.00" You know what, fuck that. I'm not even going to fill it out. They can't require me to do this shit. I'll raise a stink if they try. The more I think of it the wronger it rubs me.
• ATTICA!!! ATTICA!!!!11!
• Do you already give regularly to a charity / charities of your choice? I do, and it's the perfect way to flip off these badgerers (plus help a good cause at the same time). Especially those tabbard-wearing chuggers who waylay me when I'm on my lunchbreak with tales of woe and a clipboard. Even if you don't, this would be a good time to say you do. Then set up a direct debit.
• Don't fill the pledge card out. Don't hand it in. Get others to do the same. Because you and all of the others, why, they just all plain "forgot". And similarly, plain forgetting about any meetings about UW. You've got work to do and you're busy, it's so easy to just forget. Small scale civil disobedience. Gimme some o' that.
• Do you already give regularly to a charity / charities of your choice? I can tell you unreservedly that he does. TP's a devotee of diabetes research -- he gives both money and time. The man won't rest until every last American has diabetes.
• As far as I have hard (and IANAL), the laws vary from state to state about coersive giving. Some states outright ban it, some don't. I would check the labor laws in your state that cover this issue. An old employer of mine would put the UW giving cards *in our paycheck envelopes,* which I thought was crass. I never gave, because my local UW refused to jobtrain mentally disabled people for any job other than janitorial services, even if they were capable of doing a lot more.
• Wus that yer lil pledge card? Oh, it fell inta my garbage can. *gets out banjo* budda-bung-bung-bung
• I'm skeptical about the idea of kickbacks, but I have to agree that it makes one wonder exactly what all these top executives are getting out of it, to hue with such diligence to the UW program. Two possibilities come to mind... 1) These are all extremely bureaucratic types who love the idea that UW provides them with a well-defined program. They decided to organize a charity drive, and they're simply following the checklist. 2) Politics. Is the United Way politically active, or linked to any particular political party? It could well be that being in the good graces with the United Way is a powerful checkmark to have on your resume in certain political circles.
• To answer my own question... Some cursory googling reveals that the United Way is a favorite for political networking. It seems more popular with Republicans than Dems, but it still seems to be an organization of choice for ambitious types looking for political careers or simply political connections for business use. No wonder it gets CEOs so enthusiastic. This is actually good news in this case. The CEO wants to follow the United Way program to the letter, so he looks good for United Way colleagues and future connections. However, as long as he's jumping through the appropriate hoops, it won't actually matter about the individual donations (within limits). So the chances of it coming back on you for failing to donate, as long as the company generally donates well, are extremely low. No one should care. And if the company generally donates very poorly the CEO will be pissed at you messing up his play for United Way cred, but you'll only be one of many. National Committeeman, Republican Party of Hawaii - Chairman, Board of Directors, United Way Maui State Chairman, Indiana Republican Central - Chairman, Retail Division, United Way Indiana Chairman, GOP, Republican State Central Committee - Executive Board Member, Chairman Finance, United Way Milford Member of Congress, North Carolina - Board of Directors, United Way Success by Six Youth Program Wife of Senator Mitch McConnell, Republican, Kentucky - Head of United Way of America Michigan State Senator - Board of Directors, United Way of Kent County Republican, Nevada Assembly - Board of Directors, United Way of Pioneer Territory Communications Director, Indiana Republicans - United Way Fundraising Ambassador Treasurer, Maine Republican Party - very active with United Way Chief Justice, Alabama Supreme Court, Republican - Chairman, United Way of Alabama State Rep for Rhode Island, Republican - Board Member, United Way of Greater Fall River Alice Huffman, Chairwoman of DNC - Luncheon for Alice Huffman, hosted by the United Way DNC Vice Chair - United Way Board of Governors Chair, Georgia Democratic Party 12th Congressional District - Board of Directors, Georgia United Way
• Good research, Nal. I also noticed in the anonymous letter from the Florida corrections employee (who did seem to have a bit of a conspiracy theory vibe going on in general, though) in my link, he mentioned an unspoken competition between CEOs to be recognized at fundraising functions. My image is that these are political/networking functions where CEOs can gain or lose street cred with their homeboys. (Maybe they're de facto applications for party fundraising jobs?) I do always wonder what will happen if I'm the only holdout, and the company would have had 100% participation if not for me. Would the CEO then single me out because I ruined his getting some sort of philanthropy award and a steak dinner?
• Well, I've talked to a few of my coworkers here who feel the same way as I do. We're protesting by not participating. Not even filling out the card. It's good to know I won't be the only holdout. At least till they bring out the bamboo shoots.
• Would the CEO then single me out because I ruined his getting some sort of philanthropy award and a steak dinner? This question is isomorphic to: Is your CEO an a**hole and jerkmeister? Has he or she behaved in the past with a**holery and jerkmeisterization? If you know the answer to one you know the answer to the other.
• isomorphic = "the same as". just been reading some math book, sorry bout that.
• Make a separate donation to United Way. Keep the receipt. Send your work donation card back with a $0 donation. Wait to see what happens.
• Also, it may be worth dropping a post, or a link to this one, in one of the legal newsgroups, to see if someone with a legal background is willing to comment. A quick search on Google Groups returned these: us.legal misc.legal While there's a lot of spam in these groups, a quick scan seemed to indicate that there were at least several people with strong general legal knowledge posting replies as well.
• I'm a little late to this thread, and it looks like you've already settled on the (entirely appropriate) response of not participating at all. However, if you end up deciding you want to compromise a little, you might consider donating, say, $1 to your office campaign, along with a little note saying you've already budgeted your charitable donations for the year, but you want to do your bit to get the office to 100% participation. (This is basically what Ambrosia suggested.) As for kickbacks to CEOs, I'm pretty skeptical. I've never been a CEO, but my sense is that once you get to a certain level of wealth and power, money is just a way of keeping score. Social prestige is another way of keeping score, and for a CEO to be able to brag that his company is more charitable than some other CEO's company is probably worth more than money. (This is one reason why I think contributing a dollar might generate you some good will. Even if it doesn't help your CEO tell his golfing buddies, "My company gave more money than you," it does help him say, "Oh, you only had 98% participation? I had 99.9%.")
• jacobw, personally, I would disagree. It's the principle of the matter, now. I know that many others would agree with you, but I could never participate in something that was done in that way. Plus, I could never give money to the United Way. There are far more superior charities that show far better results than that group does.
• Not one red cent, you hear me? NOT ONE RED CENT!
• UPDATE: Well, today's the deadline for handing in the cards. Apparently they reached their $20k goal, but obviously without 100% participation (which means that a boatload of people had to pledge more than $50 each). So I don't know if my stand against turning in the card will cause any consternation or not. I'll keep folks posted, though.
• Definitely looking forward to hearing any updates.
• I have been warned just now that I and another employee are "in trouble" with one of our executives for not donating, that she is "very pissed" we didn't contribute, and now I get to go to an ass-chewing session for it. I fucking LOVE corporate life.
• Dude, contact a legal buddy. Seriously.
• Sucks to be tool.
• un-fucking-real
• They're going to hear every word I have to say on this, I guaran-damn-tee you that.
• Lawyer-up, bud. Or at least get your union rep in with you for the ass-reaming session.
• What, smirking with your eyes half-shut doesn't count anymore? I tells ya, Bush has ruined the smirk for decent folk everywhere.
• The Man really does suck, doesn't he?
• Ass-chewing session has temporarily been averted, as my manager was unable to return to the office before I was scheduled off. I am under the impression that it is indeed she who will administer this little "meeting," and not the aforementioned executive, though I'm convinced she will only be doing it because she's under orders to -- my manager's a pretty decent person who originally told me that I didn't need to give an excuse not to participate, it was my business. Inherent in this, of course, is the revelation of how fucked-up office politics can get -- a woman who seems to respect my moral and financial decision will be forced to verbally disrespect that decision, and she'll do it so she doesn't get in trouble, too. I don't really blame her. You pick your battles. But if she pushes, I'm standing my ground, and I'm going to let her know exactly why. This doesn't look like anything more than "give mct an earful" anyway, and I can hack that. I'm a big boy. Got a hairy ass and everything. I may privately speak to some attorney friends of mine, just to gauge reaction, but the repercussions of this seem far too mild to seek legal representation so far. And we ain't got no union. But this has really left a sour taste in my mouth about working for what is a locally-owned, otherwise employee-generous corporation. When I see their record apart from this, I see a model company, really, which makes me shudder at the thought of my corporate future. If it weren't for the fact that Mrs. T and I desperately need corporate health-care coverage, I'd be engaged in some serious re-evaluation regarding that future. So yes, the Man does indeed suck. But the only way to avoid it is to stop working for him, which sadly isn't a very viable option for us, at least not now. Oh, and the punchline? Scuttlebutt has it that my immediate supervisor had to have a similar meeting because of my refusal to give (why? I have no idea), and in the course of that meeting was personally chastised for NOT GIVING ENOUGH. So, if you will, allow me to respond. I'd do this over at my place, but Blogger's comment system blocks G-bombs. Feel free to sing along, kids: Coerced Donations
• Shit. Corporations have so fucked America.
• This gets me angry every time I think about it. I know just where you're coming from, though, middleclasstool. I have to have the job, the health care, everything that goes with it. That doesn't make you or me a bad person. You stick up for what you believe in the framework you have to work with. That's what I hope I've done as well.
• Coerced Donations are bad.
• It's not just donations. At my last job, the General Manager (who was an otherwise very nice guy and good boss) referred to not showing up at the comapny Christmas party as "a career-limiting move". It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, it's the way it is.
• Actually, rocket88, I think it does matter.
• Oh, and coerced donations really blow.
• I guess everone has to decide for themselves how much it matters. Fighting these things has its costs. If you're young and idealistic with unlimited career options, you may choose to stand up to the man and fight this great injustice. It'll certainly make you feel better, but ultimately won't change things in your department, your company, or the corporate world in general. If you're older, have a family that depends on your income, and would be more screwed by losing your job or limiting your career growth prospects, you may want to choose your battles more wisely. Lots of things happen in life that aren't right. Some are merely inconvenient or minor blows to your self-respect. Others are more serious and worth standing up to. Fighting all of them can be exhausting and mostly unfruitful.
• good luck, mct. If it were me, I'd bring donuts to the ass-chewing meeting.
• I'm thirty-four, I've got two kids and diabetes, and I didn't donate. Make of that what you will.
• I think I see, through the details given in this thread, how United Way contributed to TP and MCT being coerced to donate by their employers. I can certainly understand not wanting to further risk your job, but if that wasn't an issue it would also seem appropriate to note that coerced donations suck.
• I have volunteered yearly to inspect sites and score applications for groups that seek funding from United Way (not really a big deal, maybe 1-2 full days per year). After reading through this and thinking about it for a few weeks, I've decided to stop doing that and spend the time doing something of use for a small, local non-profit instead.
• I think firing someone with the overt reason that the contribution to the selected charity wasn't forthcoming would scare them to death. (Unless charitable contributions are part of your job description.) Assuming that this is a fairly large corporation,I'd bet that the executive who's orchestrating the chewing out won't think about it between now and next year when there's a new drive, unless one of his goals for the year is 100% participation. Your boss may if she was tweaked really hard. IF they were going to ding you for not participating, I'd think it would be more in performance reviews (as in progress limiting.) But, if your boss relies your work and understands with your reasons for not contributing, there may be little or no impact. Look, I've been out of the game for 6 years, but the norm in my day was that everyone whose salary/bonus depended on reaching the goals given by their bosses makes them focus on what will bring them more money. And, the size of their ire for not reaching those goals depends on how much they'll lose by not reaching them. Full participation in charity drives can't compete with improving profit margins, making things more efficient, and the like, so I think this may be a tempest in a teapot.
• That's awesome, guava!!!!
• Seriously, if you get in trouble, just lie and say that your church has a fund raiser for the United Way and you already gave twice as much money as your stupid boss wanted you to give.
• What jccalhoun said. They can't check up on that.
• I think if they were to fire you for the overt reason that you didn't contribute enough to the UW, then they'd have a frikkin' lawsuit on their hands quicker than they could say "What Matters."™ Either way, though, it's still intimidation in my view, and I still wonder whether it's entirely legal. Of course MCT and I live in a "right to work" state (aka "right to be fired for any reason your boss can come up with, and no fucking unions, hear me?"), so I may as rocket88 implies be tilting at windmills. But I still don't agree that the older you get the more used to eating shit you should become.
• don't give up your dreams, rocket!
• As a matter of fact, I was fired from my last job about a year and a half ago for basically standing up to upper management when they were being pricks. I can assure you the reasons behind it were significantly greater (to me, anyway) than a $50 donation to charity. When I consulted a lawyer I was told that, under the terms of my employment contract, I could be fired for any reason whatsoever. As the lawyer put it, they could fire me because they didn't like the colour of my shirt, and there was nothing I could do about it. I was proud of myself at the time for standing up for what I thought was right, and I was fortunate to land another job quickly. If I hadn't been so lucky, it wouldn't have been worth it. Just trying to pass that lesson along.
• Oh, now you gotta tell more then just that!!
• Did you wear a pink shirt to work? You can tell us, it's ok.
• Yeah! We saved you a doughnut . . . it has pink frosting! huh hua!
• Basically, it was a case of a previously good company falling on difficult economic times (the telco crash), and becoming a cesspool of blame-tossing and low morale. Management took the stand that the only way to recovery was to get the engineering department to work harder, for longer hours, and for less pay. This, of course, sent employee morale even lower. There were side-plots of female employees being treated poorly by misogynist managers. It all came to a head when a company-wide meeting was called to address the morale issue. The gist of the meeting was that anyone who didn't like their job was free to leave, and if you chose not to leave that meant you liked your job so you should quit bitching about it. Anyone caught complaining on company time would be fired. Being the senior guy in my department, many of my coworkers looked to me to do something about the situation. I organized an off-site meeting where we would amalgamate all of out complaints, and volunteered to present them to management on behalf of the group. I also proposed a pact of solidarity, so if anyone was unfairly terminated, the rest would openly object and threaten some sort of job action. (We were non-union, and as a P.Eng., I'm professionally bound not to join or form a union) I presented the letter of complaint, along with an offer to work toward a mutual solution. Two weeks later I was terminated without cause. My coworkers were told that they should take it as a warning, which they did, and quietly went back to work with their tails between their legs.
• Basically, it's true. You probably couldn't get fired overtly for not giving to a charity your boss designates. But it's a given that little things that you do that annoy your superiors can add up to you not getting a promotion over someone else equally qualified who did give to said charity. Or to you being the one let go when cuts need to be made. Or to you being the one that gets the crappiest assignments. Or to your life just being made a living hell until you quit. I don't deny that any of this is true. And my personal circumstances dictate that I can't risk losing a stable income no matter what. I'm just in a position where I'm reasonably secure that nobody else could do what I do, and in a town with a soemwhat decent job market. And personnel already hates me anyway. Some people may not have that security, and I don't knock anyone who gives to the United Way because they feel pressured. Sometimes you've gotta do what you've gotta do. I just get really angry that it's allowed to happen to begin with. And I still think it's wrong.
• Well, for what it's worth, you did the right thing, Rocket. If more people did the right thing instead of the safe thing, I don't think Lara would have to be so angry anymore.
• That'll learn ya.
• I always said he was a right-thinger.
• "Progress-limiting," as dear path put it, seems to be the attitude at the company (which, no, isn't huge -- huge for a local business, but in the grand scheme of things, really small), and not threat of termination. But I'm okay with that, for this job. I'm about 80% certain that they can't offer me the kind of future I want after I finally do finish this fucking degree (which is the bane of my existence), so the odds were good that I'd be moving to a new company anyway. Not that I'd leave the company over something like this alone, but I have a feeling that despite my (IMHO) stellar performance on the job (which they have generously recognized on several occasions), I am now marked as The Guy Who Wouldn't Play Ball. Given that individuality in the corporate world is only lauded when you're running things, this smells like the once-dreaded Mark On Your Permanent Record. I'm hell and gone from being Mr. Trailblazer, but the universal conform-or-die mentality of corporate life sometimes fills me with impotent rage. But shit, sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you. rocket88, I hear you on picking your battles, and perhaps this wasn't a particularly significant one to fight. You're absolutely right that company policy will not change as a result -- only I and one other employee had the guts to say no, even though literally everyone I talked to about it complained about the squeeze. The action of two employees isn't enough to make most companies think twice, so I'm sure the coercion will resume this time next year. Even so, even though I am the kind of man who will eat a plateful of shit on the job if I feel it necessary to protect my well-being, I tend to lash out at anyone who thinks he can stick his fingers into my wallet or his nose into my personal business. No utilitarian end was achieved, perhaps, but sometimes saying "no" doesn't have to be about that. The ass-chewing session has not yet materialized, and I don't know when or if it will. There have only been (reliable) murmurs that it is coming. My manager has been out of the office or otherwise tied up this week, so it may just be a long time coming. Then again, they may have reconsidered, but then I can count on one hand the number of bosses I've had who would do something so radical. ;)
• Oh, and by the way, this was like Playskool's My First Googlebomb. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak. Weaker than Coerced Donations.
• Coerced donations, you say? How shocking!
• Did someone mention coerced donations? Awful!
• Coerced donations suck ass.
• Well, the Google bomb might be effective if anyone else really planned on searching for "coerced donations", but I'm not sure it'll be in the top million search terms. Best we can do is try. And rocket88's advice on picking battles is really good. You really have to be willing to chance losing before you take up sword an shield. TenaciousPettle - have there been any repurcussions in your situation?
• Y'know there really should be a wiki article on coerced donations.
• What the heck are coerced donations? Are coerced donations sort of the opposite of force feeding? Or are coerced donations more of a blood from a stone thing? coerced donationscoerced donationscoerced donationscoerced donationscoerced donations greybeard
• well played, fish tick! Here, have some coerced donations
• Aw, shucks - 'tweren't nuffin. Don't y'all be goin' 'round handin' out them coerced donations like they grow on trees, now.
• Major props to you, rocket. I don't know if I'd have been as brave as you were (didn't see your post on preview). And to fish tick, here's a coerced donation right back at ya'.
• Lara, the sound was so bad I couldn't get through all of it. But I agree! You should all be ashamed of putting down the United Way for coerced donations, what with the way they are teaching underpriveliged NFL players how to read. Players who may be subjected to coerced donations just like you or me on top of all their Third World suffering. These people live and literally work and play in a figurative war zone and coerced donations are probably the least of their worries.
• Egad- MoFi was down for a few minutes, which made me fear that the hosting site required some coerced donations, but I guess it's okay now.
• My speakers are off. Is the sound some kind of audio feed about coerced donations?
• I'm not asking for a coerced donation or anything, but does anyone have a good soup recipe?
• I might, islander, but you'd have to find a coerced donation of basil.
• You mean to say that coerced donations are not a good thing?
• Oh, I get it. United Way sucks. Because of the coerced donations thing.
• please stop
• the war
• The whole concept of coerced donations really has me bothered. Coerced donations can undermine any kind of confidence people have in the charity system. I see coerced donations as being the one thing that may lead people to stop giving any money whatsoever.
• I asked you nicely.
• Twisted knickers?
• Koko is getting upset!
• WRT repercussions: We are a larger company, larger than MCTs anyway, and because the CEO seems to have met his stated monetary contribution goal ($20,000) even if he didn't meet his participation goal (100%), it doesn't look like there will be any ass-chewing sessions. Which is kind of a shame really--I was looking forward to standing up and saying I thought it was wrong, but now it seems it doesn't matter. For the record, our CEO had worked out that if each employee pledged $50 for the year (only $2 a pay period!) that we would meet the $20K goal. So since I and several of my workmates did not contribute, I can only assume some made much more substantial contributions. I'm beginning to think that the pressure was just a bluff, trying to scare folks into donating--basically they made it clear that the big boss wanted 100% participation, and that HR was going to be KEEPING A LIST of who did and didn't give--so you can see how that would scare some who might be worried about their security/future with the company. And, apparently, it worked. :( I guess it goes to show that coerced donations can be effective, if morally bankrupt.