April 29, 2004

Abu gharaib wonderland! Abu Gharaib is infamous as a prison where former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's regime tortured and executed opponents.

Photographs aired by [CBS] on 60 Minutes II include one showing a prisoner standing on a box with a hood over his head and wires coming from his hands. The network says he was told he would be electrocuted if he fell off. Other pictures show nude prisoners lying on each other and simulating oral sex as US troops point and laugh.

posted by Wolof 19 years ago
  • I wonder how it compares to Guantanamo Bay.
  • Support the troops!
  • Frederick, a prison guard from Virginia in civilian life, and his lawyer Gary Myers blames the problems at the prison on the atmosphere created by commanders. "We had no support, no training whatsoever," Mr Myers told CBS.
    So I guess that excuses the behaviour, then. American troops need to be trained not to sexually abuse the prisoners under their charge.
  • It just keeps getting sadder each day.
  • While I have supported the war in the past, and I continue to support what I believe were the aims of the war - the reduction of terror worldwide and the freeing and introduction of demoracy to Iraq - this is both execrable and ridiculous. I sincerely hope that anyone involved in this will be prosecuted to the FULLEST extent of the law. No training my ass.
  • six US soldiers are being court martialled on charges stemming from the investigation Good.
  • I blogged about this yesterday after having seen Dan Rather chat with one of the pictured perps on CBS last night. While the dude seemed personally disingenuous, because treating other humans (even enemies) with some respect seems like something any American should be able to handle, I agree that the entire management of Iraqi prisons, and US presence in Iraq altogether, has not been coordinated or provided with the "resources and training" they would need to do a creditable job. Prosecution isn't enough: The US has messed up its handling here from day one and nothing can take that back. The question is, can any of this be fixed?
  • It's kind of like The Stanford Prison Experiment on a much larger, realer, and scarier scale.
  • Actually it seems to me to be more like fraternity hazings. Which really doesn't excuse them for what they did.
  • Disgust over Iraq torture photos. Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram has said if pictures of British soldiers torturing an Iraqi prisoner are genuine then they are "appalling".
  • It gets worse -- with Brits are accused of torture.
  • The photos of the british troops may well be fakes: Doubt cast on Iraq torture photos Sources close to the regiment said to be involved have told the BBC they are not convinced the pictures are genuine. He says they believe the pictures may not have been taken in Iraq. They believe the rifle is an SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq. They say soldiers in Iraq wore berets or hard hats - and not floppy hats as in the photos. They also believe the wrong type of Bedford truck is shown in the background - a type never deployed in Iraq.
  • Hope it's true they're fakes.
  • Here's a little bit on the sort of person who might find themselves in this prison.
  • This story isn't disproven, alas.
  • New Yorker Article. This is more than a disciplinary problem, the army had little to no support before from the people they're invading, this is another huge steaming pile of scat we've jumped in. This war gets more surreal all the time. Bush's religions convictions have caused most of this idiocy. He's on a crusade with our troops and it's just about out of hand.
  • the actual army report - via MSNBC though. So - I heard the report calls this "systemic". Guess I should read it . . .
  • Indeed, jb, that's what makes this all so sad and so predictable. And so very appalling. War really is the ultimate obscenity, for 'normal' inhibitions are shed. We all have the potential to be perfectly savage and behave detestably to one another -- but not everyone gives in to the pressure of the group/scenario when it tilts in that direction. There are always those individuals who resist, who condemn or refuse to participate, those who report and reject such atrocities and abuse. It is never comfortable to be the only person willing to confront the prevailing ethos in any group -- and where a culture places great value on extroverted behaviours and on being 'part of a team effort', perhaps it may be even more difficult for individuals to move against a popular current. To accept it, though, is to loose everything humanity values. In any case, just because it's so very easy for any person to fall into this particular abyss, these few singled out as abusers will be roundly condemned, and they can expect to be excoriated, perhaps because the majority of people don't like to be reminded of how very frail the things which keep us in community actually are.
  • ) bees.
  • The story that won't go away.
  • I just heard on the radio that the Prison director of Abu Gharaib was a former Arizona (?) prison director who was forced to resign after a prisoner died after being chained naked to a chair for over 15 hours. After that, he set up his own prison company and was contracted to work in Iraq.
  • Err here. (May 11 show)
  • And now another barbarity unfolds before a camera, this time against an American 'contractor' instead of a journalist. Retaliation? Where will it all end? Is there an end anywhere in sight?
  • depends on if you take the Bible literally, as our head chimp does.
  • Well, hey, I'll just bet if we fabricate some photos, we can cast credibility on the real thing. Go figger. And goetter: six US soldiers are being court martialled on charges stemming from the investigation Good. Yea, and no doubt they deserve it. However, what they don't say is that the enlisted men are being nailed and will no doubt receive sentencing and/or a dishonorable. The ossifers punishment will be to have their career "derailed" by not being allowed to re-enlist. Extremely doubtful looking at this juncture that their paperwork will have the D-word. Big.Fat.Wow. Once again, shit flows downhill and lands heavy on the little guy.
  • cast doubt, WHATEVER
  • i dunno the credibility was pretty sarcastic - you sure you don't want to go with that one? ;)
  • No doubt?
  • Monkey Year, so full of unexpected surprises -- now they see it, now we don't.
  • The Gray Zone "The roots of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal lie not in the criminal inclinations of a few Army reservists but in a decision, approved last year by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, to expand a highly secret operation, which had been focussed on the hunt for Al Qaeda, to the interrogation of prisoners in Iraq. Rumsfeld’s decision embittered the American intelligence community, damaged the effectiveness of élite combat units, and hurt America’s prospects in the war on terror."
  • You know what? I read a lot of the "gray zone" link, but I couldn't read all of it. I can't even build up more bile - maxed out. Maybe I'll just go to bed and sleep until I can vote against the Bush administration. It seems impossible that we got to this point.
  • i think if, indeed, as the NYT says, and then even, CNN says. [although not as prominently], /and i fear many other sources may yet be unveiling, ...then the world owes iraq an immense apology and reparation. for a people to be pillaged by a deluded decision by an apparent madman, was bad enough. for a country to be destroyed and plundered for international status, greed and profit, in the name of a higher moral purpose is unconsciounable. i know america will arise strong and true from this. the country has shown it's real integrity too often, to be completlety derailed by the machinations of a few 'outlaw cowboys'.
  • So...Rumsfeld, back in the blame game. And Ms Rice also took a hand. Who else has been playing their cards close to the chest? How high will this go? ...a friendly little game, for friends of ?...
  • Is Sy Hersh a legend or what?
  • Wolof, he's a hero. This story continues to nauseate in greater and greater degrees. Certainly the degree and number of photographs made no sense; the blackmailing of the "insurgents" to create informants angle clears that right up and also brings up my lunch. My only hope is that the brutalization of these men and women has the effect of saving thousands more lives bound to be snuffed if the occupation continues. Perhaps this odious scandal will finally spur some homeland regime change. If this fucker gets elected, I'm going to be deeply ashamed.
  • as a 'benign northern neighbour', i have been watching and following and even researching many things since sept. 11. i had regarded george being dumped, after his purpose was fulfilled in the greater scheme of things, as predictable. i had not expected to see such developments as rumsfield being left hung out to dry, and the sudden immergence of powell as a rising star. /must make some people wonder who their real friends/business acquaintances are. /and there's a little, romantic side of me that would like to see powell rise to the top to express the epitome of american values. and now roles and functions of the media and the internet are being challenged and highlighted. /pearle's widow gave a good speech today, but i lost the link and a quote. /good heavens, those damn yankees are a complicated people!
  • *reads homunculus' link* Hey, who was that guy who was going to close down the rape rooms in Iraq? You guys should put him in charge of America.
  • i've 'done' a lot of time in various federal and provincial prisons, and after reading the various stories lately, i've had to wonder what kind of machiavellian mind would place the likes of such guards as identified, in supervisory capacity over muslims. first one hears of angry and abusive discards from the american prisons acting as tormentors. then there are the 'good ole boys', such as the fellow who earnestly believed that his dog simply didn't like the smell and looks of islamic prisoners. then there are the young, unwordly and desperate to 'fit in' types such as ms. england. people such as these are totally predictable as abusive, and blatantly misplaced in this setting with such vulnerable prisoners and a volatile belief system endemic at this time. i have problems accepting that this was happenstance, instead suspecting that these types were deliberately chosen for these roles due to their propensity for perpetuating such violations on other humans. perhaps also, for their obvious culpability and appropriateness for the role of scapegoat, as the 'few isolated cases'.
  • Another of Gen Miller's opening moves was to announce that a section of Abu Ghraib was now to be called Camp Redemption, as guards and inmates attempt to put the past behind them. *makes howling noises, beats ground with fists*
  • What I don't understand about this whole situation (other than the general cruelty itself) is why there are SO many pictures of these actions. Were the guards looking to fill their "Iraq '04!" scrapbooks? Was there a contest as to who could come up with the most degrading scenario? If these were supposedly independent actions of just a few guards, why take pictures of it? Why have physical evidence of abuse that is not "ordered" from the higher ups? What was the quote the convicted guard said, something about "our commanders would be outraged if they knew we were doing this"? Then why are you taking pictures of it, you dumbass?? I'm genuinely perplexed.
  • igry.
  • "Abuse" is a weasel-word. How the USA is being portrayed in consequence of the torture disclosures. Via Under the Fire Star /sadness
  • The scandal that has not yet broken in the press: how many Iraqi women also ended up in those prisons.
  • good link, homunculus. That guest editorial is worth reading too.
  • Clearly, I need to read Trinquier, the torture apologist. His thought is apparently still influential in the U. S. Army.
  • Clearly, I need to read Trinquier Yes, and that Algerian campaign went pretty well, didn't it? Through (unspecified!) contacts, I have seen the (classified) photos from that war that were circulated among the French military to gee them up to their patriotic duty of keeping Alg
  • boingboing discusses why the pictures don't show on image searches.
  • Has anyone seens any pics with MI or CIA people in it? All the ones I can find just have MPs. thanks for the boingboing link pete_best
  • Some of the information released earlier stated that CIA/ MI people in Aru Ghraib wore uniforms without insignia there.
  • Ouch.
  • "If they were innocent they wouldn't be at Abu Ghraib." A new Catch-22? "I'll be judge, I'll be jury", Said cunning Old Fury -- Lewis Carroll
  • And now -- how widespread was it?
  • Riverbend, one of the Iraqi bloggers had a story about a family memeber who had been imprisoned at Abu Garaib back in March. Read it and weep. http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_03_01_riverbendblog_archive.html
  • A related development.
  • Slate's Dahlia Lithwick has a great piece on the DOJ's handling of the Jose Padilla case. "The lesson of Abu Ghraib was that we no longer trust what happens in dark dungeons, where the rule of law has been cast aside. To reassure us, the Justice Department responds with the assurance that no one there trusts what happens in the bright light of a constitutional democracy."
  • Amazing MeFi post by y2karl: Torture and Truth and The Logic of Torture
  • yeah, or the military. oops.
  • American torture, American porn: Abu Ghraib and "The Passion of the Christ" are connected in a dark basement of the American psyche.
  • FINALLY we get to talk about the Mal Ghraibson movie. homunculus is the ruliest
  • Pentagon Report Set Framework For Use of Torture Thanks pete, but I nominate Intel-Dump as the ruliest.
  • I saw the Intel Dump post. Pete that Metafilter link is scary. Most Americans don't know about the potential power FEMA has.
  • Sullivan - shhhh wait 'til a commercial will ya? i mean, tell me about it. :/
  • Who authorized the presence of non-military personnel within Abu Ghraib? And what was their business there? It would seem military personnel were accustomed routinely to taking orders/following directions from 'civilian contractors' -- but this seems very bizarre, and I haven't read anything making the situation very clear.
  • And you won't if BushCorp succeeds in more diabolical obfuscation. okay i just wanted to say that
  • I hereby nominate "diabolical obfuscation" as the Coolest Combination of Words This Week. (Now I wish I'd gotten diabolical.obfuscation@gmail.com)
  • where are all the pictures *bip* where are all the pictures *bip*
  • Christopher Hitchens: Prepare for the worst of Abu Ghraib.
  • Yep, it's bad all right. They showed those guys photos of Christopher Hitchens in the nip.
  • Pentagon officials still insist Rumsfeld acted legally, but admit it all depends on how you interpret the law. Thanks for clearing that up.
  • acted legally ?! How does this differ from writing your own law because you don't find the ones in the books convenient?
  • My name is middleclasstool, and I have a theory. Could it be that Bush/Cheney/Rummy/Ashcroft think they're channeling Abe Lincoln? I was thinking about this last night. Lincoln suspended writ of habeas corpus, took quite a few domestic political prisoners, and, one could argue, knowingly subverted the Constitution to try to preserve the republic as it stood. Yet US History remembers him as a hero. This is somewhat OT, as it has less to do with torture than with the indefinite prisoner "detainments," but it speaks to state of mind. Is this the definition of "heroic leadership" to the current administration? Do they think that history will eventually lionize them for this, or do they just think that the ends justify the means, no matter what?
  • HI middleclasstool!
  • Washington Post
    The Senate voted without dissent yesterday to require the Bush administration to issue guidelines aimed at ensuring humane treatment of prisoners at U.S. military facilities and to report any violations promptly to Congress.
    (via Billmon)
  • Rumsfeld defends secretly holding suspect. "Tenet did it" said the weasely sack-of-shit.
  • Pentagon officials still insist Rumsfeld is not a sack of shit, but admit it all depends on how you interpret the term "sack of shit".
  • )))))) to the quidnunc kid.
  • It's all out of control, and does anyone think we won't pay the price for the stupidity of the few? Is this US? I know we've been stupid in the past, but this is outrageous.
  • from homunculus' link: 'In another session, Neisef claims, he was held down by two men while a uniformed woman forced him to have sex with her.' Lucky bastard.
  • Lucky bastard. I'm going to go on the record and say I prefer it to being beaten to death. /controversial
  • i for one commend and support this administration which has taken full responsibility for these atrocious acts. what?
  • Is this really us (US?) I know were're crass, and all that, but this is not my house.
  • An indirect consequence of this business for the US is failure to gain immunity for US military personnel in world court, now. Bound to be other consequences, too.
  • This, Wolof? Found it in the source code, looks like there was a space that shouldn't have been there.
  • Thanks!
  • Hope not, but we know there were youngsters held at the prison in Cuba. If true, it's utterly hellish.
  • Dear God, I hope that's not true.
  • Meanwhile, back home: The Crisis in America's Prisons.
  • via mefi US news has copies of redacted material "Riots, prisoner escapes, shootings, corrupt Iraqi guards, unsanitary conditions, rampant sexual misbehavior, bug-infested food, prisoner beatings and humiliations, and almost-daily mortar shellings from Iraqi insurgents--according to the annex to General Taguba's report, that pretty much sums up life at Abu Ghraib."
  • i is igry now.
  • Mark Bowden: Lessons of Abu Ghraib
  • This is Glenn Reynolds take on the German television news show piece on Abu Ghraib.
    GERMAN MEDIA: Hey, the holocaust wasn't all that bad! Look what the Americans did in Abu Ghraib! This self-serving historical revisionism pretty much explains the German position on the war. Note to Germans: You're not fooling anyone but yourselves. And Michael Moore. And Al Gore. And maybe Guido Calabresi. In other words, the people who want to be fooled. . . .
    I followed Reynolds link which was to Jeff Jarvis. His links goes to this blogger. The blogger links to this German news article. Here's the translation I made. There is nothing in here about the holocaust. The article is about the role of women in the military and Abu Gharaib. Explain to me how this is the denial of the holocaust that Reynolds states.
  • From the Army Times.
    The U.S. military has found a total of 94 cases of confirmed or alleged abuse of prisoners by U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan since the fall of 2001, the Army
  • CBS held the Abu Ghraib photos on principle, right? more about media than the subject at hand, but interesting and relevant.
  • Interesting article, pete. I think the news media should free themselves from any moral issues and blindly report all the news they have (after fact checking, of course). It wouldn't have been the reporting of the abuses that endangered hostages' lives. It would have been the abuses themselves.
  • England faces hearing. How much jail time is she due? Will she spill? And for you As-the-World-Turns fans out there: Spec. Charles A. Graner Jr., 35, another soldier in England's unit, also has been charged with abuses and was involved in a romantic relationship with England; he faces adultery charges for allegedly having sex with England last October. She was visibly pregnant in court last month, and her lawyers have said the child is Graner's. I smell a movie-of-the week!
  • She makes Tonya Harding look blue-blooded.
  • I know people might react badly to this - but I feel for England. She's just a kid, and got mixed up in crazy stuff. We are all capable of doing horrendous things in an atmosphere like that, with people cheering us on - and the younger, the more pathological people are (children are monsters with cute faces). But now she could face up to 38 years in prison - the rest of her life gone. I am angry at the people in charge who let the organisation of the unit become so polluted. When there were scandalous hazings in a Canadian military unit a few years ago (including beatings), I don't know what they did to the soldiers, but the attention wasn't focussed on them. It was on the unit - and it was the unit that paid, by being disbanded.
  • jb - I can understand your concern. I once worked briefly as a psychiatric technician in a state hospital for retarded people. The technicians there, who were the day-to-day care-givers, ranged from kind to sociopathic. But I saw people I'd gone to school with, whom I thought were pretty normal, do things I couldn't believe. And, if anyone tried to bring the problems to the attention of hospital management, they were punished - rotated from ward to ward in the most dangerous units, left alone with 50 or so patients who could act out at any moment in hopes that an incident would occur that could be blamed on the whistle-blower. This was in the 1960s, when scandals had rocked the California state hospitals for the insane. The reaction of the state agency was not to fire supervisors who were involved the scandals, but to transfer them to hospitals for the retarded, where the patients were less able to speak up for themselves. When I handed in my resignation, I tried to get into the problems I'd seen, but the supervisor of nursing sevices who did the exit interview just shined me on, especially after I said that I thought the problem started with top management. If I'd been 40 instead of 20, I'd like to think that I would have gone public, but at that age the option didn't occur to me. On the other hand, it's hard to tell whether England is dull normal, sociopath, or something in between. The photos seem to support the worst - the people I watched who were kind of normal just got out of the limelight - keeping a low profile to try to do the right thing while avoiding attention from the administration. England seemed to me to be enjoying her role.
  • path, feel like posting a little bit of your reminiscences sometime in one place? Because you seriously have a lot of stories to tell.
  • PF - I think that'd take a blog of my own, which I'n not inclined to do, so I'll just bring them out when the subject on MoFi seems appropriate. And, I like your reminiscences a lot better than I do mine. Gimme a great post again, sweetie, with some personal experience thrown in. You've been places and done things I long to have done. Your blog, from what I've seen of it, doesn't tell me stories - and you must have a bunch of them.
  • Most people enjoy stories. I certainly do. Stories are one way of by-passing the 'necessity' of directly experiencing something in order to grasp it. Anecdotes are a variety of story which seems particularly useful in a forum like monkeyfilter, since anecdotes can enable others to look at the story-teller as well as the contents of a story. Suspect this is part of the appeal of our Curious George posts and perhaps AskMeta as well.
  • Which is why I'm hoping her trial will bring out her stories. If it's the case that all she did was pose and humiliate prisoners by posing, I don't think she deserves 38 years in prison - but *somebody* just might. Anyway, we're insane with our sentencing in Umurukah. 38 years? Like somebody's going to achieve the enlightenment and reformation in that 38th year? This is what happens when people who are attracted to punishing others get elected to the bench because the people who are attracted to rehabilitating criminals go to work for private industry to make the SUV payments. An my puppy got a lot of ear-scratches this morning. /ray_of_sunshine
  • way to bum me out homy. I knew this was there - i'm no less outraged, although the circumstances are different regarding their imprisonment, their age, their access to remediation. It's just as bad, but it's also different and, for what it's worth, the Abu Ghraib story will have enormous impact on the USA from outside, i.e. foreign terrorists as opposed to the outraged ex-cons who blow up a federal buidling because the Arizona / Louisiana / wherever jail cops include crooked bastards.
  • Witness: England identified as abuser Normally, i'd find "undisciplined and promiscuous" kind of a turn-on. Oh well. Am I the only one who finds her last name slightly hilarious in a memetic sort of way?
  • Red Cross report. Not sure if this was linked yet.
  • goddammit.
  • Sad. Looks like patterns of abuse which were long entrenched under Saddam won't be going away soon. But at least the US and Britain can pride themselves on making the world a safer place for...uh...um...
  • Recall that two months ago, at a press conference, Donald Rumsfeld played dumb when asked about detainees kept away from monitors: Q: But then why wasn't the -- why wasn't the Red Cross told, and there are other such prisoners being detained without the knowledge of the Red Cross? SEC. RUMSFELD: There are -- there are instances where that occurs. And a request was made to do that, and we did. fuckhead cunt. yet *another* beauty link sir H.
  • The only journalists investigating the child abuse angle are from Rolling fucking Stone magazine?????? What the....how....why......?...!...???
  • i've called for SideDish's input here before . . . (I think)
  • Abu Ghraib: Rumsfeld escapes blame via monkey scartol
  • Am I the only one who finds her last name slightly hilarious in a memetic sort of way? "...and think of England?" <--- poor taste or humorous parody ahead, your call. I really don't know what to think of those photos.
  • I don't know why I can't get it through my head that POWs (or PsOW) shouldn't have the same rights and protections that the accused have in the criminal system. Silly me! (Though, I bet many US prisoners would jump at the chance to get psychopharmaceuticals if they were of the paxil or prozac type.) When I think back to how the US was shocked and outraged about how allied POWs were treated in WWII, Korea and Viet Nam (all within my memory,) it just distresses me that this administration has gone aways into the same "anything goes" mindset. Drugs and scanning just seem like another variation on "brain-washing" if the right techinques were applied. And, most of the US POWs in those older wars were "enemy combatents" to the countries holding them prisoner. They were military personnel fighting against the countries that imprisoned them. It just distresses me that we've found a new category for these prisoners from the Iraq debacle that allows us to claim to be able to avoid the Geneva Convention for a lot of them.
  • US army medics accused over abuse United States army medics have been accused of being complicit in the abuse of Iraqi inmates at Abu Ghraib prison, outside Baghdad. Writing in the respected medical journal The Lancet, Professor Steven Miles says some medics collaborated with abusive guards.
  • Setting military investigators to examine alleged torture by militiary personnel -- nothing will come of this. Congress investigation -- at the least -- needs to go ahead, and not be put on hold because it is an election year. Tucking the poo under the carpet for a while is a very poor way to clean up.
  • Abu Ghraib Probe Points to Top Brass says the title (sorry, reg req. - lfuser/lfuser) But later it says: It widens the scope of culpability from seven MPs who have been charged with abuse to include nearly 20 low-ranking soldiers who could face criminal prosecution in military courts. No Army officers, however, are expected to face criminal charges. and later: Another defense official said the Army study would be "a comprehensive report, a thorough look at another aspect of Abu Ghraib, to include up to the CJTF-command level," a reference to Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, who until recently was the top U.S. commander in Iraq. No discipline, no punishment, just a light dusting of accountability with a lean to "noting that top officers were focused on the insurgency that erupted last summer" Sheesh even the Washington Post article is whitewashing. "Top Brass" means . . nnnnnobody. Corrupt. Bankrupt.
  • Shortly after the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal broke, several shocking U.S. government internal memos surfaced. The memos, in effect, offered complex but specious legal arguments to justify the U.S.'s avoiding having to abide by the major international and national laws prohibiting torture. But they've been cleared of wrongdoing by the government's own study. *whew!* In other news, the CIA finds that it had nothing to do with the creation and distribution of crack cocaine. Thank goodness.
  • Go Kerry go!
  • At last! At longed-for last!
  • As usual, when confronted with this kind of news, I emailed Bush and Cheney to tell them how upsetting I found this. Here's what I wrote: "Really, the actions detailed in this link are completely unacceptable. They are the equivalent of the torture American prisoners faced in Japan, Germany, Korea and Viet Nam, within my memory. And, we Americans were indignant that our citizens should be treated in those manners. And, now, it appears that physical torture, terrorist threats (that classification applies to threats to individuals as well as countries) and brain-washing techniques are ok as long as the US is doing them So, if torture is not acceptable for American citizens, should we allow it for others? Your administration appears to think so. Your administration has taken us back to the most of barbaric times in this regard. And, since my government represents me,, you're doing this in my name, which I find completely unacceptable. "I'd ask you to tell me that our country is not like that, but, if you did, I don't think I could believe you any more. "I know that neither the President nor the Vice President will actually read this message, but, please let them know, whoever is reading this, that I hold them personally responsible for the acts of their administration." I know that this may be completely ineffective, but I did notice that, after the first Abu Garaib news came out, Bush went from stonewalling to actually semi-aplogizing after I, and I have to think many others, emailed him expressing horror that we had tortured prisoners. If you USians would like to continue my little experiment, please contact president@whitehouse.gov and vicepresident@whitehouse.gov and let them know how you feel. My own take is that the more "main stream" you sound the more effective any messages will be. I tried to avoid rants that could be ignored - even tried to imply that I might have voted for Bush if things hadn't gotten so bad, even though I wouldn't. And, if any of you Christians are shocked at what has been going on, a little "God-fearing Christian" rhetoric might be helpful.
  • just when I think I'm not shocked by it anymore. Thanks h-dogg. Thanks for keeping the sidebar jumping. (And thanks to path for the wisdom as well. Folks if you haven't written your representatives, please do so.)
  • farked. sorry, I just thought . . . hell i dunno what I thought.
  • NPR's Daniel Schorr says that after Alberto Gonzales was nominated to serve as the next attorney general, many of the White House policy papers on torture that he helped to write were revised to comply with international law. goddamn i'm so happy to have the db back I could just plotz!
  • The proposed next AG is Al Gonzalez who, despite being given ample opportunity to do so, did NOT deny that he believes that the President can indemnify individuals for the use of torture, nor that he can, if he so wishes, break the law. but for most of Thursday's nearly nine-hour hearing the committee's Democrats wanted an answer to just one question: Does Gonzales think the president has the power to authorize torture by immunizing American personnel from prosecution for it? During the hearing, Leahy called this idea, which comes from the August 2002 document dubbed the "Bybee memo," "the commander-in-chief override." And by hearing's end it was clear that Gonzales believed in it. More here posted by polychrome at 05:13PM UTC on January 07
  • From Gonzalez's comments yesterday, it's clear that he believes 100% in the rule of law when it comes to American domestic and constitutional matters. He has no respect, however, for any international laws or treaties. This is a view shared by many on the right.
  • An article in the New England Journal of Medicine provides the most authoritative account so far that doctors were active participants in the abuse of prisoners in America&#039;s &quot;war on terror.&quot; Salon link, yada yada
  • So. When these so-called doctors cop out, it ain't juct figurative.
  • and another comparison of torture memos apparently the original torture memo wasn't up to scratch, and the second torture memo is much better, from a legal analysis point of view. ALTHOUGH...the author of the original torture memo (say hi to Yoo everybody) says that his goal was to keep things as clear as possible, and that the second torture memo is just muddying the waters. 2005: debating the relative merits of torture memos.
  • Alas, I have given up being surprised by these liars, which is the correct and unvarnished name for those who muddy the waters. The deluge of dubious data that's been put out must surely set some kind of record -- in the unlikely event anyone's given enough of a damn to keep track. Four more years -- and now they're trying groom Ah-nold for entry in the presidential sweepstakes! Sheesh.
  • Read the OLC memo prepared for Alberto. Here is one thing that is not mentioned. Is there any other reason besides that he is up for DoJ abesides being longtime crony of Bush? TAPPED made a note that the policy changes with torture only apply to the miltary.
    Thus, for example, the President's February 7, 2002 "humane treatment" directive was carefully worded to apply only to the Armed Forces
  • If only Alberto was just a hair tonic! Hi, good to see ye, Sully!
  • It's good to be back. And (cringe) that goes out to my nemesis.
  • aww you're swee . . wha? . . oh. Well, welcome back anyway ;)
  • Yet another article I wish everyone in America were to read: A conscientious objector who served at Abu Ghraib
  • One guy was a local hero for the week because he'd killed X number of prisoners – one of the prisoners he had shot in the groin had taken three days to die. it gets better eventually - right? thanks for the article yentruoc.
  • And my personal moratorium on calling anyone who fervently supported this war an asshat is over. Asshats.
  • 28 Abu Gharib prisoners escape I guess I wasn't aware it was still being used. That's got to be bad just by itself.
  • Yes, Abu Gharib and Guantanamo, both still in use, despite reported abuse. US doesn't care, obviously.
  • Good radio interviews on Tuesday's show · Jan. 25, 2005 of Fresh Air. The best segment I thought was Human Rights and the Future of Abuse One component was the declaration that there hasn't been an investigation. A full, independent investigation. Only internal DoD investigations, which of course lead to the "few bad apples" result. There are bigger issues in this scandal, not just who hit whom first. George W. Bush apologists please come to the white courtesy telephone.
  • I can think of a number of folk in the adminsitration who made false official statements, yet they don't seem charged with anything...so the buck stops where?
  • Commander: Prisoners at Abu Ghraib included kids (Salon article, sorry if you have to daypass it) Military officials have said that no juvenile prisoners were subject to the abuses captured in photographs from Abu Ghraib. mmm.
  • Prisoner count in Iraq doubles in 5 months for some reason, "Human rights group fears U.S. detainees will be mistreated". Oh sure. Blame the human-huggers.
  • jesus. I searched for this story on google news to see if it had made it to American media- and found that ABC news had it. down under that is.
  • Those will eventually surface, too, though it may take a while.
  • May take quite a while -- US army whitewashes General Ricardo Sanchez, other high officials exonerated in US army inspector-general's report. However, General Janis Karpinski was found guilty. And "reprimanded". Whatever that may mean. If memory serves me, General Karpinski said some times ago she was being scape-goated -- she does seem to have fallen ourside the protective old boys' net in this instance, whether justly or not.
  • Yesterday was the one-year anniversary of the leak. NPR ran a story about the impact so far on prison policies and the 9 investigations so far. It's good.
  • more about the investigations. Sorry today is the 1yr anniversary.
  • mistrial
  • Sydnehy Morning Herald version. (user=fuckingbullshit pw=123456) Including the lines: A military doctor who worked at the prison, Colonel Anthony Auch, said: "I do not condone what [England] did, but we cannot ignore the lack of leadership her unit received. The chain of command as a whole failed her." Which wasn't in the US versions. that I saw. For some reason.
  • Free press? Oh, yeah. Free to skip anything which might make waves and capsize the ship of state kind of free.
  • what's that line about "the banality of evil"?
  • What the majority then and there happens to like is Good and whatever they dislike is Bad. Which seems to sum up the ethos of Ms England insofar as I grasp it.
  • Odd question, but does anyone know whether the prisoners were detainees or captured soldiers? I'm not sure of the difference, but my hubby & I were discussing it this weekend, and it's an important distinction to him.
  • minda, from homunculus's link above:
    But while at work in a headquarters office, he said, he learned that most of the detainees at Abu Ghraib had committed only very minor nonviolent offenses, or no offenses at all. (Several investigations would subsequently reveal that vast numbers of completely innocent Iraqis were seized and detained by coalition forces.)
    this is my recollection from when the story broke.
  • so, basically that means that these people were not soldiers, but thought to be terrorists/insurgents? sorry for the banal question; i'm terribly ignorant about this kind of thing
  • Top Democrat: Evidence of abuse at Guantanamo Senate committee hears from military investigators Senators also said military investigators wanted the former prison commander at Guantanamo Bay admonished over the treatment of one terror suspect, but a top general rejected their call.
  • and torture happens at Abu Ghraib at Guantanamo despite Authority's attempts to say it isn't so
  • Four months after she tried without success to plead guilty, Army Pfc. Lynndie England plans to fight charges she played a key role in abusing detainees at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison, her lawyer said. . . .he plans to base much of his defense on England's history of mental health problems that date back to her early childhood. He said he also will focus on the influence exerted over England by Pvt. Charles Graner, the reputed abuse ringleader.
  • It is, you know, his job to defend her.
  • Thank god they're going after a high ranking officer and not some lowly private.
  • Those pesky bad apples - they just get everywhere.
  • And those bad apples keep turning up...
    But the cumulative evidence shows that, although the investigators and staff took their work seriously, the focus of those higher up was on a whitewash. An excellent example of this can be found in the work of MG Fay, who before being called up was a New Jersey insurance executive best known for his fund-raising activities on behalf of the Bush-Cheney campaign. As it happens, I was in Germany in the spring of 2004 at roughly the same time that MG Fay was there interviewing soldiers and officers with V Corps MI units. Having some contacts with these units, I took the time to speak to a number of NCOs and officers to get a sense of just how Fay was conducting his investigation. What I heard was consistent and very disturbing. Fay repeatedly warned soldiers that if they were involved in incidents, they would be put up on charges. And if they had seen things and not reported them, they would be up on charges. Then he asked if the soldiers had anything to report. One soldier told me that when he began to describe an incident to Fay, he was stopped and told "Son, you don't want to go there.".....But I stress that among the twelve investigations conducted, the Fay/Jones report was one of the best. One wonders what it would have netted had proper investigatory technique been used.
  • Oh right - now you want me to believe that the army wants to whitewash the most damaging story of the past 50 years! "I want the truth!"
  • In one incident, the Human Rights Watch report states, an off-duty cook broke a detainee's leg with a metal baseball bat. Detainees were also stacked, fully clothed, in human pyramids and forced to hold five-gallon water jugs with arms outstretched or do jumping jacks until they passed out, the report says. "We would give them blows to the head, chest, legs and stomach, and pull them down, kick dirt on them," one sergeant told Human Rights Watch researchers during one of four interviews in July and August. "This happened every day." If this is true, God damn them.
  • Contact Senator John Warner, head of the committee overseeing this travesty and let him know ~ y'know that we're . . y'know pissed off about it. *gurgle*
  • Lynndie England was found guilty on six of the seven charges, including maltreatment of prisoners. She faces a maximum of 10 years in prison.
  • Because she is primarily responsible, I feel that this issue has achieved closure. Y'know. Not.
  • Three members of the 82nd Airborne now say the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners was routine and that they learned the techniques of abuse from watching inteligence officers in Afghanistan maltreat Afghan prisoners.
  • wiki news article with some different quotes and good sources. Can anyone remember when this story broke without scrolling up? I was off by about five months.
  • US Senate approves rules regulating detainee treatment Well . . .it's something. Please to note the Shrubya administration was against this. As was the Unpublican Sinator from Alaska. Bush administration officials say the legislation would limit the president's authority and flexibility in war. White House spokesman, Scott McClellan called the amendment "unnecessary and duplicative" and added: "If it's presented, then there would be a recommendation of a veto, I believe". If President Bush chooses to veto the bill, it would be first veto since he took office in 2001.
  • Interesting prediccament -- reduction of government being one of their alleged goals. Unless they've weathervaned on that, too.
  • Great. Just fucking great.
  • It's all done for your protection, you dumb yanks who don't know their own good when they see it. Or don't see it, as the case may be...
  • Well, that really shouldn't be any surprise, should it? It's the CIA. I mean, you know, of course they hold suspected terrorists (or any tenuous reason) in secret prisons. Duh. I'm sure it's much worse than that.
  • Two U.S. Soldiers Charged With Assaulting Detainees Ah, that's two new & different soldiers assaulting two new & different detainees.
  • Bush: We Do Not Torture Now I implicity believe Dear Leader whenever he makes a bold proclamation such as this. Therefore I am now believing that no torture occured. But if I did question the veracity of this statement, it would be in the following manner: I wonder if he's justifying torture in the same way that he kills while professing to follow the "Do not kill" commandment of his stated religious deity. That is, "We do it, but we have to do it, so it doesn't count". Jesus, can the utter contempt for everyone who disagrees be more overstated? He really doesn't care about baldface lying to the public does he? Pathetic.
  • For those who don't want to read the article, Congress passed an anti-torture bill that Bush & Dick want to make an exemption for the CIA for. They want the CIA to torture people. Mmkay? That's the context of his statement "we do not torture". Goddamn, that's some black soul there. "Our country is at war and our government has the obligation to protect the American people," Bush said. "Any activity we conduct is within the law. We do not torture." Bush pointedly noted that Congress as well as the White House has an obligation to protect U.S. citizens. Yes because acknowledging the smallest semblance of humanity or morality in legislation is exposing the country to horrors of WMD. Perfect sense. If you're a C-average silver spoon addict moron thug.
  • Yeah, but... "we do not torture" - G.W. Bush
  • sorry, I'm repeating ...
  • Geneva Convention? We've come a long way, baby.
  • This story says, For more than a year, former Marine Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey has been telling anybody who will listen about the atrocities that he and other Marines committed in Iraq. . . . News organizations worldwide published or broadcast Massey's claims without any corroboration and in most cases without investigation. Outside of the Marines, almost no one has seriously questioned whether Massey, a 12-year veteran who was honorably discharged, was telling the truth. He wasn't. And the picture in the story is . . interesting . . somehow. (SFW)
  • Frist told reporters Thursday that while he believed illegal activity should not take place at detention centers, he believes the leak itself poses a greater threat to national security and is "not concerned about what goes on" behind the prison walls. Frist was asked if that meant he was not concerned about investigating what goes on in detention centers. "I am not concerned about what goes on and I'm not going to comment about the nature of that," Frist replied. Of course not. So what if people are being tortured on our taxpayer money. Who cares? This is a CIA leak the Republicans can use to shift momentum back their way! . . fucking sack of shit politician.
  • petebest, you've got that right. I think Frist might be a worse human being than Bush.
  • There's no hope for the US unless a petebest and Fes ticket be contrived for the '06 election!
  • Iraqi police went further, telling CNN that many detainees in the Baghdad building "had obviously endured torture" and were "detained in poor health conditions." The Iraqi Interior Ministry could not be reached for response. When they do respond, I'm sure it will be "We do not torture." It's got the Smirking Chimp seal of approval.
  • Re: middleclasstool's theory: It actually appears to be Graham trying to chanel Lincoln, judging by his attack on habeas corpus.
  • Ouch - Dissin' tha 33manc1pa+ah eh? But yeah - Graham needs an "adjustment". He's f'd in the head like many of the bought-and-paid-for.
  • "They took me behind the cage, they were screaming at me, scaring me and beating me a lot," Thahe Mohammed Sabbar said in an interview. "One of the soldiers would open the door, and two soldiers would push me in. The lions came running toward me and they pulled me out and shut the door. I completely lost consciousness." Sabbar, 37, and Sherzad Kamal Khalid, 35, are in the United States this week to talk about the lawsuit that the American Civil Liberties Union and Human Rights First filed on their behalf against Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and other military officials.
  • "There is not the same kind of shock and controversy over the discovery of the basement prison in Jadriya as there was over abuse scandal Abu Ghraib, because everyone has known for some time that this has been going on. Everyone knows someone to whom this has happened. "There is more of a sense of relief that it has finally been brought into the open - although people are angry that it has taken so long. . . . "Sunni groups have been trying to present evidence - photographs, videos and testimony - for months, but they have only been taken seriously now that the Americans have become involved. . . . "I've been collecting testimony today from people who have been held in all sorts of centres: interestingly, none of them was held in the Jadriya prison - they were all held in other places, which have apparently not been declared. It suggests that this is just the tip of the iceberg.
  • Read the last 4 paragraphs for details on why the civil war is already going on. Also enjoy the bitter irony of their "president" saying there was no torture.
  • Ex-CIA chief: Cheney 'VP for torture' "I'm embarrassed the United States has a vice president for torture," Turner said, according to ITV's Web site. "He condones torture, what else is he?" A black-hearted cyborg of dense, fevered evil, that's what.
  • Oh, come now. Cheney is only 39% computerised mechanical monster, and still 61% homonid. I think "cyborg" is a little harsh.
  • Perhaps you're right, your hole-iness. I shall retract my previous assesment and downgrade his status to that of "infant-chewing dog-blowing vermin whose very existence is an argument for the possibility of great evil being active in the universe." Please forgive my earlier impetuousness.
  • "Forgive"! Oh, how quaint! No, I'm afraid that it's the scalding hot rectal needles for you again, dear boy.
  • Now c'mon your Poopishness, I'd say you were more well endowed than a "needle".
  • Knitting needles, peterbeast, inserting anal-wise - not my enormous purple-veined nun-throbber. You kinky little shit!
  • But your goose, I don't knit! And I'm knit very good at these double ensembles!
  • Director: CIA does not torture Ooooohhh. Oh, okay then. Well, we'll just ah . . we'll just tidy up and get on with things shall we?
  • What, me torture? When our enemies do it, then we, of course, eschew it, for doncha know it's bad, bad, bad! But when it's done to save our country then torture's pure and sin free for we never can be bad, bad, bad! Land of the brave, home of the free, how come our enemies look so much like we?
  • too true, too true.
  • A source from the Iraqi police in Baghdad told CNN that some of the 13 detainees who were hospitalized showed signs of torture -- specifically that they had been beaten with cables and some of them subjected to electric shock. I wonder how that investigation into the Abu Gharib scandal is going . . . or if it's going.
  • Trail all your pikes, dispirit every drum, March in a slow procession from afar, Ye silent, ye dejected, men of war. Be still the hautboys, and the flute be dumb! Display no more, in vain, the lofty banner; For see where on the bier before ye lies The pale, the fall'n, the untimely sacrifice To your mistaken shrine, to your false idol, Honour. -- Anne Finch, Countess of Winchelsea, "Trail all your pikes"
  • I'm not sure that this is the best place to post this but, if it turns out to be true, well, I'm not sure whether to just say "this is beyond my abililty to cope." or to go on the warpath.
  • Germany still seeking CIA answers Aren't we all? Germany's foreign minister told parliament Wednesday the government had no prior knowledge of the CIA detention of a Lebanese German and was still awaiting answers from Washington on the matter. And he voiced concern the CIA flights of terror suspects via Europe could damage transatlantic relations. What, there's something left to damage?
  • If i read that right, it only affects current prisoners in Guantanamo and any information that may have been tortured out of them before the McCain bill. Is that right? Congressional Republicans were helping to preserve the utility of coercive interrogations that senior White House officials have argued are vital to the fight against war against terror. They are wrong, wrongheaded, and treacherous assholes. Torture doesn't give you good intelligence and anyone not blinded by raging hatred and ignorance, with even a passing understanding of interrogation, would tell you that.
  • New York-based Human Rights Watch has issued a report saying the United States operated a secret prison in Afghanistan and tortured detainees. The report quoted an Ethiopian-born detainee as saying he was kept in a pitch-black prison and forced to listen to Eminem and Dr. Dre’s rap music for 20 days before the music was replaced by "horrible ghost laughter and Halloween sounds." The detainees offer consistent accounts about the facility, saying that U.S. and Afghan guards were not in uniform and that U.S. interrogators did not wear military attire, which suggests that the prison may have been operated by personnel from the Central Intelligence Agency. ``It was pitch black, no lights on in the rooms for most of the time,'' he was quoted as telling his attorney. ``They hung me up. I was allowed a few hours of sleep on the second day, then hung up again, this time for two days.'' ``We're not talking about torture in the abstract, but the real thing,'' said John Sifton, terrorism and counterterrorism researcher at Human Rights Watch. ``U.S. personnel and officials may be criminally liable, and a special prosecutor is needed to investigate.'' Ah, but you're forgetting that President George W. Bush said that the U.S. Doesn't Torture! Ah, although he did really want to, we know from his threat to veto the McCain Anti-Torture bill. Umm so the message is "We Don't, But We Want To" Which . .is . . very ahh . . well it's . . yeah.
  • BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- In an extended courtroom outburst, Saddam Hussein charged Wednesday that he has been beaten "everywhere on my body" while in detention and has the marks to prove it. Sheesh everybody's gotten beaten by the Americans these days. Wow, who'da thought that torturing detainees would ever come around to bite us on the ass like that?
  • When President Bush last week signed the bill outlawing the torture of detainees, he quietly reserved the right to bypass the law under his powers as commander in chief. ''We are not going to ignore this law," the official said, noting that Bush, when signing laws, routinely issues signing statements saying he will construe them consistent with his own constitutional authority. ''We consider it a valid statute. We consider ourselves bound by the prohibition on cruel, unusual, and degrading treatment." But, the official said, a situation could arise in which Bush may have to waive the law's restrictions to carry out his responsibilities to protect national security. He cited as an example a ''ticking time bomb" scenario, in which a detainee is believed to have information that could prevent a planned terrorist attack. I might possibly agree with that if Bush or anyone like him weren't so egregiously abusing those powers. Karma's a bitch, cowboy.
  • LAGOURANIS: Often people are captured when they find a weapons cash, for instance blargh, lousy editors. MATTHEWS: Let‘s talk about the people who were guilty, the 10 percent, as you see it. What drove them to attack our forces or attack the forces of the new government? LAGOURANIS: Well, I would ask them that. And when they were being frank with me I felt they told me—a lot of them mentioned the Abu Ghraib scandal. The pictures that came out of Abu Ghraib. . . . MATTHEWS: Are we winning over there or losing over there in the grandest possible sense of that term, winning or losing? Are we winning the hearts and minds or are we losing the hearts and minds? LAGOURANIS: We‘re certainly losing the hearts and minds. There‘s no doubt about that. THIS is why pro-Bush, pro-torture, "He's protecting the country" people should change their thinking about this scandal and torture in general.
  • The constant, and huge problem with torturing asomeone is that it doesn't guarantee what you are being told by the victim is true or accurate. When it is known that torture will be used, organizations simply don't give accurate information to their members -- using cells and misdirection to insure those captured don't have valid information to give. The whole thing is wantonly cruel and in the long run pointless insofar as obtaining truth goes. To admit that torture can be a way of proceeding to treat captives is to turn your back on civilization, and on humanity at its best. This administration's position is utterly incredible to me. It contravenes any shred of respect for human beings, or those princioples embodied in the constitution, amazing in a country that was once taken by surprise by a 'preemptive strike' at Pearl Harbour., That the US has tolerated this disastrous pack of poltoons, even for an instant, indicates the culture of paranoia and fear prevails -- the excact things FDR once cautioned his countrymen against. Sad. For the US and for the world.
  • Oh come on, it's just a bit of fun.
  • agreed Sir Bees - and here we sit in the middle of these wrongheaded fellow Americans - voting, talking, debating, and watching it all happen anyway.
  • Joe Sacco, the reporter/graphic novelist who did the comics "Palestine", "Safe Area Gorazde" and "The Fixer", has done an 8-page comic for the Guardian about two Iraqis accusing US troops of torture, who are now plaintiffs in an ACLU lawsuit against Rumsfeld. (pdf file) via BoingBoing
  • bah. it's 404'ed.
  • Investigator: U.S. Outsourced Torture Marty said there was no irrefutable evidence of the existence of secret CIA prisons in Romania, Poland or any other country. "On the other hand, it has been proved that individuals have been abducted, deprived of their liberty and all rights and transported to different destinations in Europe, to be handed over to countries in which they have suffered degrading treatment and torture," he said. If eventually uncovered, the detention centers would likely be small cells that could be easily hidden, he added.
  • Rummy likes horsies. in Morocco. It's a coincidence.
  • more pictures, fresh outrage I wonder how many of those servicepeople will grow old and unstable because they've done this? Beer only goes so far, y'know. Next month, two more enlisted men, both dog handlers, will face a military court at Fort Meade in Maryland. No high-ranking officer or official has yet been charged in the abuse scandal that blackened America's reputation across the world. Senator John Warner, please report to the principles office.
  • The Iraqi government Thursday condemned prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib, following an Australian TV broadcast of newly released images, the aired timing of which a spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq called "irresponsible and "unnecessarily provocative." I wonder what's covered by the necessary provocative . .s.
  • Poem (I Lived in the First Century) I lived in the first century of world wars. Most mornings I would be more or less insane, The newspapers wouyld arrive with their careless stories, The news would pour out of various devices Interrupted by attempts to sell products to the unseen. I would call my friends on other devices; They would be more or less mad for similar reasons. Slowly I would get pen and paper, Make my poems for others unseen and unborn. In the day I would be reminded of those men and women Brave, setting up signals across vast distances, Considering a nameless way of living, of almost unimagined values. As the lights darkened, as the lights of night brightened, We would try to imagine them, try to find each other. To construct peace, to make love, to reconcile Waking with sleeping, ourselves with each other, Ourselves with ourselves. We would try by any means To reach the limits of ourselves, to reach beyond ourselves, To let go the means, to wake. I lived in the first century of these wars. -- Muriel Rukeyser
  • When facts fail (Salon, view ad req.) These techniques of torture, developed in the 1950s and 1960s, are reappearing. There is one very important difference: the explicit official approval and the determination to defend these techniques in the case of public exposure and public controversy. And torture has survived its exposure -- a critical difference. The clear evidence of intent at the very top of the government is also striking. At a certain point, of course, you have to get into the realm of the psycho-political, which is a very mushy realm. You've interviewed some interrogators, haven't you? Indeed, and I've had from them accounts of some of the things that were done. The great problem in the age of frozen scandal is that it's as if we're this spinning wheel, constantly confirming facts that we already knew, so the revelations become less and less effective in causing public outrage. The public begins to become inured to it, corrupted in its turn. When facts fail.
  • I remember a long time ago, when talking about some bad government or other, I'd said "why do those people let that awful government run their country? Why don't they DO something?!" I think I get it now.
  • These techniques of torture, developed in the 1950s and 1960s.... At least one factual error here. The repeated immersion-in-water-of-prisoner's-head and interrogating him each time he came up for air as conducted by Germans during the occupation of France was described in detail in a biography of a leader of the French Resistance captured by the Germans. The title was Pink Rabbit (the unfortunate prisoner's code name), and I checked this out of my school library and read it in 1955. This particular technique was then deemed to be especially effective since it aligns the torture with the physiological response to being nearly drowned. But I daresay a number of these techniques are far older than the twentieth century, if we knew the whole truth of the matter.
  • Perhaps he mean the "stress positions" and dogs and things. the revelations become less and less effective in causing public outrage. The public begins to become inured to it, corrupted in its turn. If it could be more depressing . . . it is.
  • 'Trial' of Bush prompts meeting Parsippany school officials to discuss classroom project Joseph Kyle, whose class is trying Bush for alleged "crimes against civilian populations"and "inhumane treatment of prisoners," was not invited, Perlett said.
  • Al-Gonzo, The Torture Guy, defends American anti-terror tactics The U.S. attorney general defended his country's treatment of terror suspects against criticism from Europe and elsewhere, saying Tuesday that the United States abhors torture and respects the rights of detainees. Alberto Gonzales also said the U.S. did not transport terrorism suspects to nations where it was likely they could be tortured. Once again, not under oath. Once again, lying like a cheap rug. What an asshole, and how typical of this administration. They've proven they have no shame, they've proven to be compulsive liars (a whole administration, now), they've proven they don't give a damn what anyone else thinks.
  • Dick gets to make the definitions round here he got to shoot his lawyer and yet stayed in the clear looks like good ol' Dick is here to stay Texas law just looked the other way though comedians had a lot to say and that's how to succeed in the US of A good ol' George's pals called Willie slick but no one yet has made any charges stick against good ol' George and his neo-khan clique and it isn't really torture when they say it isn't torture and they say it isn't torture for to lie's against their nature just goes to show facts are only true when they're red white and blue
  • Thanks, petebest, for your effort and passion in this mess. Nothing will come of it. You are shouting in the wind. That wind might change eventually; we can only hope.
  • I don't know why they bother lying at all, when they've now proven beyond a doubt that they can get away with whatever the hell they want.
  • I dunno cynnbad, but technically if one person is hopeful then there is hope. Also, for example, I think of Senator John Warner and others who I'll always associate with this that might have otherwise gone under the radar.
  • Yeah, a nice dose of complacency and pessimism is just what we need to get us through the dark days ahead.
  • US to Stop Using Abu Gharaib Once the U.S. moves prisoners to the new prison at Camp Cropper, a process that will take months, Abu Ghraib will be returned to Iraqi prison authorities, said Lt. Col. Barry Johnson, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad. Idiots. Demolish it already.
  • Moving the prisoners and their "guards" will just be moving the problem.
  • Hey now it was obviously about 7 ne'erdowell privates that were the problem. You're not suggesting it went any higher than that?? and hopefully they're behaving better. *sigh*
  • An American Gulag being handed over to Iraquis who seems on verge of civil war. Heard on the radio there are an estimated 14,000 Iraquis being in detention in Iraq now. One can only imagine more will end up there, the way things seem to be going.
  • Abu Ghraib officer fights reprimand An Army Reserve captain who supervised Charles Graner says higher-ups were to blame for prison abuse. So far, nine enlisted soldiers have been prosecuted for abuse at Abu Ghraib, according to the Army. In addition, four soldiers and eight officers, including Brinson, have not been prosecuted, but have been formally reprimanded. On Thursday, Brinson joined a growing chorus of those enlisted soldiers and officers who say responsibility for what happened to detainees at Abu Ghraib goes higher than them. Unfortunately there's not much more to the story than a he-said-she-said between this person and Graner. However, it shows that some are refusing to fall on the sword.
  • Until people speak out little will be done, but it does seem more and more are finally doing so. Even a first word counts. I think often of the American poet and publisher Sam Hamill and how he mobilized American poets to begin speaking out against this mess in Iraq long before the gutless media were willing to.
  • Great interview, bees thank you. Q: You've described yourself as anti-religious. Hamill: Yes, yes. I am anti-religious. Q: And why is that? Hamill: Most of the ugly wars in history have been wars of religion. And there's nothing more dangerous than someone with religious certitude who creates consequences in the world that to me are simply inexcusable. Q: You seem to be contrasting religious certitude with what you said about poets as doubters. Is that right? Hamill: Yes. Well, we poets don't tend to be certain a lot. Much of our art is made out of our own uncertainty. And there is a not-knowingness, I think, that leads us back to suffering humanity with a more compassionate vision than most of our politicians have.
  • Both religious and anti-religious leaders [Hitler, Stalin, Pot Pol] have caused a lot of misery in the past.
  • Maybe it's a historical comment - although I suppose Ghengis Kahn wasn't particularly religous . .
  • "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
  • Hitle may not have been a religious leader per se, but he certainly involved a lot of religion in his policy and philospohy.
  • Hitle?
  • 279 photos, 19 videos archived on Salon. I haven't looked yet. I don't want to, either. But I would like to renew the call for senior officials to be jailed for this. Starting with Shrub in Chief and his pocket boy Al-Gonzo The Torture Guy.
  • Clarification: . . .the CID materials contain two different forensic reports. The first, completed June 6, 2004, in Tikrit, Iraq, analyzed a seized laptop computer and eight CDs and found 1,325 images and 93 videos of "suspected detainee abuse." The second report, completed a month later in Fort Belvoir, Va., analyzed 12 CDs and found "approximately 280 individual digital photos and 19 digital movies depicting possible detainee abuse." It remains unclear why and how the CID narrowed its set of forensic evidence to the 279 images and 19 videos that we reproduce here.
  • The New Yorker Magazine: How an internal effort to ban the abuse and torture of detainees was thwarted. "...This standard had been in effect for fifty years, and all members of the U.S. armed services were trained to follow it. One by one, the military officers argued for returning the U.S. to what they called the high ground. But two people opposed it. One was Stephen Cambone, the under-secretary of defense for intelligence; the other was Haynes. They argued that the articulated standard would limit America's 'flexibility.' It also might expose Administration officials to charges of war crimes: if Common Article Three became the standard for treatment, then it might become a crime to violate it. Their opposition was enough to scuttle the proposal. In exasperation, according to another participant, Mora said that whether the Pentagon enshrined it as official policy or not, the Geneva conventions were already written into both U.S. and international law. Any grave breach of them, at home or abroad, was classified as a war crime. To emphasize his position, he took out a copy of the text of U.S. Code 18.2441, the War Crimes Act, which forbids the violation of Common Article Three, and read from it. The point, Mora told me, was that 'It’s a statute. It exists—we’re not free to disregard it. We’re bound by it. It’s been adopted by the Congress. And we’re not the only interpreters of it. Other nations could have U.S. officials arrested.' Not long afterward, Waxman was summoned to a meeting at the White House with David Addington. Waxman declined to comment on the exchange, but, according to the Times, Addington berated him for arguing that the Geneva conventions should set the standard for detainee treatment. The U.S. needed maximum flexibility, Addington said." (link and excerpt via MeFi)
  • You don't know Big Steve, but he's a civilian contractor who's getting away with some of these abuses.
  • from the salon article: Legal experts say Stefanowicz and other civilian contractors at Abu Ghraib cannot be held criminally liable under the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act, which in 2003 held that only civilians hired through a contract directly with the Defense Department could be prosecuted for crimes overseas. fucking hell, how convenient that 2003 legislation turned out to be.
  • Mmmm.
  • Other nations could have U.S. officials arrested. Okay, other nations, let's see some action!
  • U.N. grills U.S. on torture ban "U.S. officials acknowledge mistakes had been made and that 29 detainees in American facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan had died of what appeared to be suspected abuse or other violations of U.S. law."
  • "Army Sgt. Santos A. Cardona was the 11th soldier convicted of crimes stemming from the abuse of inmates at the Iraqi prison in late 2003 and early 2004. He was found guilty of dereliction of duty and aggravated assault for allowing his dog to bark in the face of a kneeling detainee at the request of another soldier who wasn't an interrogator. The military jury acquitted him of other charges, including unlawfully having his dog bite a detainee and conspiring with another dog handler to frighten prisoners as a game."
  • Report: Pentagon to drop Geneva "The Pentagon has decided to omit from new detainee policies a key tenet of the Geneva Convention that explicitly bans 'humiliating and degrading treatment,' according to knowledgeable military officials," the Times says, "a step that would mark a further, potentially permanent, shift away from strict adherence to international human rights standards."
  • Always interesting to watch a country paint itself into a corner.
  • Indeed, Senator Joe Biden made a good comment about this saying "The reason we have these rules are for the benefit of people like my son - serving in the armed forces, so that if they are captured they are treated humanely" - that's from memory on hearing the quote, unfortunately my Google-fu failed to find it on teh Intarwebs.
  • I wonder if that means there are more photos likely to come to light, and that the Pentagon is aware of more. This way future incidents are unlikely to require a courtmartial.
  • ""There's a reason why we sign these treaties: To protect my son in the military. That's why we have these treaties, so when Americans are captured, they are not tortured. That's the reason, in case anybody forgets it."
  • i think they forgot it.
  • The more one reads of these folk, the better hell starts to look.
  • Links lifted from Metafilter on the involvement of doctors in torturing Iraqi prisoners. The stuff on the cover-up of how women and children were treated is especially horrifying.
  • Yeah, that's . . . I can't even click on that. I heard some of it on the radio and that was too much. Would that this administration were as righteous as they believe themselves to be in this case. Have I mentioned that sentiment before?
  • *throws up on keyboard* I'm so tired of hearing about this shit. Every day I seem to lose more and more respect for my country. I find it ironic that the U.S. Senate voted on flag burning yesterday - - seems this is better time than any to light one up - - perhaps I shall let my true patriotism flow this Independence day; I fancy painting the U.S. flag with a roman candle...
  • Frankly, the US has always gone nuts during a war, even a phony, trumped-up one like this one. But the administration has always faced Congressional opposition/oversight in the past. The most appalling aspect of all this is the way the American news media refuse to give coverage of anything that might bring the wrath of the administration on them. They are scared spineless.
  • This is a motherfucking cancer. Disgusting.
  • SMT - but they voted not to amend the constitution to criminalize flag burning. And, yes, I think we all tire of the ceaseless degredation of what we thought the US stood for. I've gotten to the point where I seldom comment on the revelations because it's all been said so many times before. But, I do think it's important to read them. If we don't choose to know what people who represent us in some way do, than we certainly won't even look for ways to stop this. Lotus eaters, anyone? But, let me say that I worked for about a year in a state hospital for retarded children some 40 year ago. It was just after there had been huge scandals on the treatment of patients in hospitals for the mentally ill in California. The agency which oversaw those hospitals chose to transfer supervisors from the latter into positions of authority in the hospitals for retarded (whose patients were pretty cowed and not good at communication,) so the administration didn't want to know if anything really bad was going on. I saw psych. technicians abuse patients. There's no other way to put it. Not to the extent at the prisons in Iraq, but still not something that whould have been allowed. And, I didn't report it, which still haunts me to this day, because I saw what happened to techs who did. They were put on the "wheel" - transferred to a different ward each shift, and only the most violent wards. The take among the experience techs was that there was a hope that they would be attacked and injured, or would do something that could be interpreted as grounds for dismissal. When I finally quit, my exit interviewer asked me how I had liked working there. I said it was a hard place to work, thinking they'd ask why and I could at least say something about the treatment of the patients. No more questions were asked. Sometime after I had quit, a patient died after a tech had applied a common calming method - choking with a towel to the point of unconsiousness. The patient had a heart defect that caused that punishment to send his or her heart into fibrillation, and the patient died. AT least officially, the scandal caused the agency to make major changes. So, while I don't approve, I can sort of understand how the warders and the doctors got into the spot they were in. There's an overwhelming pressure to "go with the flow." If you're stationed in a place like Iraq and have a mandated number of months of assignment with no ability to quit without major consequences, it must be doubly hard to do what's expected, and even harder to not do so. Not that that excuses them,(or me)but I can understand the conflicted thinking that put them where they are.
  • A sad tale well told, indeed, path. But your reaction to your inertia helped make ye what ye are now, namely one who speaks out against perceived injustice. So to that degree, something positive was gained, after all.
  • Path, yes I realize the Senate voted not to amend the constitution - but it was only by a single vote. Thanks for sharing your story, rather hard to digest (as I have heard similar stories from my aunt who was employed in a similar environment). I think bees said it best...
  • Let's hope the next election sees major changes in the composition of Congress ... although this may be increasingly difficult since the probability the Republicans will try for major redistrictings now is high.
  • Will Bush and Gonzales get away with it? "But with the Supreme Court ruling, that defense no longer stands, leaving the administration in a legally vulnerable position. At a recent congressional hearing, Maj. Gen. Jack L. Rives, the Air Force judge advocate, testified that "some techniques that have been authorized" violated the Geneva Conventions. To preempt any prosecution, administration officials are now quietly circulating legislation to change the statutory interpretation of the War Crimes Act of 1996. In short, the legislation would make it difficult to prosecute U.S. personnel for the harsh interrogation methods authorized by President Bush and the Justice Department. "
  • Al-Gonzo, "The Torture Guy," visits Iraq *cue Darth Vader theme*
  • And how is it again that the administration/executive can circulate legislation when the two are separate branches of the governement? Eh?
  • What a long, unenlightening article. I had somehow missed in the news that England had a son to Graner. Poor kid.
  • What a long, unenlightening article. I had somehow missed in the news that England had a son to Graner. Poor kid. In the days when Sussman was a novice Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6. "What are you doing?" asked Minsky. "I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe." "Why is the net wired randomly?" asked Minsky. "I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play." Minsky shut his eyes. "Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher. "So the room will be empty." At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.
  • The fact that England had a child to Graner hardly provides a valid explanation for her behaviour beyond "I did it because he told me to do it." And besides, koans make me think. Stop it!
  • That England lass never seemed any too bright.
  • Dang. Scooped by the H-dogg 6 days ago. I gotta start working out more.
  • Well, at least Rummy felt really bad about it. Defense secretary laments Abu Ghraib in farewell Words is words.
  • weird, that link gave me a "could not open site" error that i'd never seen before - kinda like a javascript popup or something. Y'know it's coming up on the 3 year anniversary of Abu Gharaib. It started as an outrageous component to a disastrous idea of an illegal war. Then people voted for Bush again.
  • I get the same error-pop-up message, but when I hit the "back" button, the page/s load properly. Weird. Sad story, and all-too-common I'm afraid. If the US can't treat "its own" with at least a half-assed attemt in humanity, how 'ya think they can set up shop overseas without poking fingers in the sweet torture pie? Not to mention stories such as the young African American man in North Carolina who was accused (i.e., never tried in court) of raping a white girl, and locked away for most of his life (enduring castration, and countless other horrific acts of mental/physical abuse); only to be released 70 years later with a simple apology from the State.
  • ^attempt
  • Theoretically, Bush's ideological bloody blunder and the crooked criminals who run it weren't directly to blame in that particular instance tho. Still, Al-Gonzo can issue an order delcaring the man non-existant if it'll help. I mean there's no paperwork that explicitly proves he exists.
  • I don't believe in Abner Jones; There's no convincing me. Dig him up! Display his bones; Impressed I shall not be. His registry of birth, 'tis true, Might fool the most naive. His fingerprints and photos, too, Might make some folks believe. Myself, I still am skeptical; I cherish niggling doubts. And, by St. Peter's testicles, I'm sure the truth will out! This Abner Jones is but a myth Designed to keep us down, Concocted by a robot with Agendas of his own. There are Lots of things I credit, Like the monster in the closet. ('Though it wants the under-bed, it Can't come up with the deposit.) But spare me all your "evidence" - Your little paper trail. Abner Jones? Ridiculous! A modern fairy tale.
  • Military to torture-happy producers of "24" - Just stop. The United States Military Academy at West Point yesterday confirmed that Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan recently travelled to California to meet producers of the show, broadcast on the Fox channel. He told them that promoting illegal behaviour in the series - apparently hugely popular among the US military - was having a damaging effect on young troops.
  • Read that a couple days ago and made me fume... they keep repeating 'it's just TV fiction, everybody knows that' like a justification. As if we didn't know that for many people, TV is reality.
  • Wow.
  • The professor blasted President Bush, former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and other senior officials who said that al-Qaida and Taliban captives would be considered "unlawful combatants" rather than "prisoners of war," a designation that would invoke the Geneva Convention. He said those officials "should be tried for the crimes against humanity."
  • U.S. prison chief in Iraq charged with 'aiding enemy' • Another charge: inappropriate relationship with detainee's daughter mm.
  • "You're fucking famous now!" Warning: the YouTube link is pretty sickening.