May 17, 2006

Anonymous, George: I been screwed! Back in November I sent via Paypal $250.00 to a designer (who I have worked with in the past) to build a new website. Four months went by without anything happening at all.

I got on his case and got a one page mock-up which was totally weak. I called him on the phone and he said he was having some problems with his life. I told him I was going to use someone else. He promised to send me the money. It's now six months later and he's stopped answering calls or emails. He lives in another state about 300 miles from me. I think suing him is a total waste of time. I'd really like to get my money back. What would you do?

posted by Simian XY 17 years ago
  • ya know, it is only $250... it wouldn't even pay to track the guy down... the gas, time, and energy isn't worth it. Write it off as a poor choice, let it go before you get an ulcer over this.
  • (self-post warning): if it is a fairly simple site, I'll do it for ya pro bono. Keeps me off the streets.
  • Paypal's Seller Protection Policy says you're SOL, as "Intangible Goods" aren't given customer protection. I'd check to see what protection you're offerred under your own credit card -- maybe it'll be a different story. There must be a complaints division for Paypal, where you can get this guy blacklisted or something (not that that really helps you). There also seems to be this Paypal complaints group, but I have no idea as to their efficacy. As for going against the guy himself -- the different jurisdictions, the 'small' amount of money -- it's likely not worth it. IMHO, anyway.
  • Years ago I sued an ex turned friend turned ex-friend for $150. It was good experience to learn how "the system" works, and I thought I was on the side of right, but I felt horrible walking out of court. Then, it took 3 years before the person actually paid me. In retrospect, it probably wasn't worth it. Sorry for your luck. Maybe chalk this up as an expensive lesson?
  • IMHO, anyway. What are you, some kinda . . . law . . talkin' guy?
  • /mental note to stay out of techsmith's way
  • "What are you, some kinda . . . law . . talkin' guy?" Law Talkin' Guy is over on Fark, isn't he? Any legal information given here is intended for purely academic purposes only, and is not intended as legal advice of any kind or form. Such information is relied upon solely at the user's own risk and discretion. Shit.
  • A footling amount of small change. Key his car if you're ever in the neighbourhood, but forget about it otherwise. I would try to put his name up on the web somewhere to ID him as a scammer.
  • I like to consider that my own personal time (not my real wage, but how I value my time) is worth at least $25 an hour. I got ripped off on eBay a couple years ago to the tune of $150, and ultimately decided that it would take way more than 10 hours of my time to retrieve my money. I wrote it off as a $150 lesson in "Pay for such things only on credit cards, and then only on cards that have easy fraud protection policies."
  • which are?
  • I've found that my United Mileage Visa is fairly friendly for removing a charge that was fraudulent. YMMV, of course, and I only used it once for a $30 charge for a book that I never received.
  • Hah! Officially, I'm worth $40 an hour. So you lot should be really happy I'm not charging you.
  • MonkeyFilter: you lot should be really happy I'm not charging you.
  • Well, my work-rate is different from that, but $25 is sort of my touchpoint for "is it worth paying someone to do this for me?" If it would take me 2 hours to do something, but I can pay someone $30 to do it for me (like car detailing or something like that), I'll often just pay them to take care of it.
  • I would just like to point out that this really is all about revenge, and revenge is a dish best served cold. It is very cold ... in space.
  • KHAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!
  • What Chy said. I found it telling that these two statements were paired together: I think suing him is a total waste of time. I'd really like to get my money back.
  • Small claims court is useful for this kind of thing. In fact, often just a letter *mentioning* small claims court will help you recover the money.
  • set up a sting. e.g. contact this person using a different identity. build up their trust in some way. then whammo! eff them over for 275 big ones (10% surcharge to cover your six-month investment in winning their confidence). all my other ideas involve violence or forgetting about it or both.
  • I'd write to him and give him an honest piece of my mind about what I think of his behavior, and then I'd tell him that I won't sue, but I will put up a web page, telling in gory detail how he is a rip-off artist and that hopefully any future employer of his will find it via Google. Welcome to the age of Internet Karma, buttface! Then offer to let him off for repayment plus interest.
  • Getting revenge by spreading the name etc etc will eventually only turn around and reflect badly on you. Also it's not a very adult response now is it? Obviously you've had a breakdown in communication. Is it possible that from the beginning you did not explain clearly enough what you expected for the site? I suspect this is the main cause for delay in a lot of designs cases. Was the designer waiting for input from you, or content to be prepared? Some designers do not start working on a project until all content has been submitted - although usually this is decided when the work is first agreed upon. Also - and this is not a reason for someone to take your money - but when you are a freelancing designer and something major has happened in your life - you can't take time off without things falling apart. It might achieve more to find out what the issue is - perhaps it is the death of a close person or a serious illness. I know from experience what can happen in such a situation and I am very grateful for my clients being understanding when I needed to rearrange deadlines, instead of being demanding and revengeful. It certainly sounds odd - if you have worked with this person in the past - for them to drop the ball on you. Obviously the lack of communication is from pressure and avoidance. Something terrible may have happened - and getting "net revenge" will achieve nothing. Also - $250.00 only for a website? Was it only 2 pages? That sounds like a ridiculously low rate for a professional designer to charge. Perhaps this person is only doing it for a hobby and their real job became too intense? Anyway the best practice is for both the client and the designer to sign a work agreement stating what is expected of both parties in regards to work, deadlines, expectations and of course money. Probably best to chalk this up to a harsh learning experience.
  • What is it you do for a living again gomi? :P
  • C'mon Abs - you know I'm a chicken sex determinator.
  • Abs, jealousy is soooo unattractive.
  • Why do people seem to know how much they are worth an hour? When I work (which isn't that often, granted), I'm paid maybe $15-20/hour. My husband is paid £20 (not including prep time). But both of us would easily do 10 hours or more work to save those amounts of money - I'd do 100 hours work to get back $100. We regularly do an hours work (cooking and cleaning) to save £4 on eating at the college. Money is worth a great deal - and $250 is a lot of money.
  • jb, I'd say that "worth an hour" is a very complicated (and to me, intuitive) function of disposable income, debt status, time-of-the-billing-cycle, and just how badly I would hate to do something myself. When I was in college, that threshold was very, very low, but when I consider that I have to rent out my mental/physical capacities and my time in exchange for money from my employer, and, say, that employment occupies about 12 hours each day, the remaining time is hence that much more valuable to me. When I have, say, 4 hours of unallocated time per day, why would I spend all 4 washing my car when I could be reading while paying someone else a few dollars to wash it for me? I think the operative phrase in your comment was "When I work (which isn't that often...)" If I have to get up at 6:30am and may not get home until 7pm, and have to get to sleep by 10:30 or my next day's shot: that intervening 3.5 hours is worth FAR more than doing 100 hours of work to get back $100.
  • That's true (that I don't work often - but I do a fair bit of unpaid work, aka research). But even when I was really busy in undergrad (going to school, working part-time), money was still worth a lot more than time. I didn't have time, but I had even less money. Maybe that's it, it's a scarcity thing. You have to lack time, and have money before you count your own time as being worth a lot of money.
  • No I think it's a lot more complicated than that. In the design world at least it is more based on your portfolio of work and the names of your previous clients. Also for web design on your skill set. Skills such as being multilingual or specializing in types of programming and so on mean that your time is worth more. You are providing a specialized type of service. And you are a bit nuts if you work for less in a specialized field than you would say cleaning toilets.
  • You could try alerting the Better Busines Bureau, and give PayPal's Buyer Complaint Process a try.
  • If you have a legitimate complaint about someone cheating you, warning others by publicizing it is hardly just "revenge" or un-adult. I just can't agree with that. Cheaters should be named and blamed.
  • This isn't some e-bay or net scam. It's a private working situation tourned sour. In further attempts to get the money, or have a third party mediate on Anon's behalf this would cause problems. And reflect badly on the poster especially if it's related to a business.
  • "Is it possible that from the beginning you did not explain clearly enough what you expected for the site?" Yeah, Simian XY probably needed to state upfront that he/she expected them to return their calls. Simian XY's fault.