June 16, 2005

• Please, listen to those feelings. Intuition is a powerful ally.
• I say that because if you are picking up on something that is making you that agitated physically, chances are your feelings are founded. Better safe than sorry when your children are involved. I had a bad experienced with a "window washer" before. Bad feelings from the start, and it only got worse...
• I agree with sugermilktea. Pay attention to your feelings, if it turns out you're wrong you may feel foolish, but what if you're right?
• I got the name of this person and did an online search of offenders in our state and nothing came up, but, unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
• No, it doesn't, and it's very good that you're aware of how unfounded your fears are. That said, it's been pretty rare that a strong gut reaction of mine has been proven wrong.
• I think Cali makes a good point--what harm is there if you're wrong? That said, take a deep breath and try to get yourself calm. It will make it easier for you to continue to observe the situation and communicate with others. How much longer will they be in the area?
• darshon, did anything bad ever happen to you as a child? weird question, but that's the gut reaction *i* got to your post. especially with how intensely you are reacting to this. and, yes, of course go with your gut. how much longer will they be working there? can you just ask them to leave, and hire other painters?
• Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
• if you're married, get a second opinion from your spouse. You always have the right to fire them and get other painters.
• Everyone's right - never take chances with your children's safety. Be sure and take every precaution. Don't leave them alone, tell your kids to be on the lookout and report anything even remotely untoward, ask for a different crew, talk to the cops, get a dog, change the locks - whatever you feel is necessary. Foolishness is emminently curable. The alternative is not.
• You don't need to justify your feelings on this. Quit worrying about rationalizing a firing of the guy, and just do it. If someone pushes the point, don't hide it -- just say he gives you the creeps, and you don't feel safe around him. As long as he gets paid for the work he did, you should be fine.
• Definitetly report your concern to the painting-business. You might also consider changing your locks after the paint-job is done. Never be afraid to follow your intuition. I am very sorry you are having to go through this.
• My husband is feeling the same as me, but not quite as...frantic as me. I am going to ask that other painters be used in the future. I have asked all the children to be very alert to their surroundings, etc. I don't mind feeling/looking foolish in the face of the alternative. I've talked to another neighbor who, it turns out, has known this person for some time and he has 'adopted' her six year old daughter. Somehow, that didn't make me feel better. And, yes, SideDish, something did happen and I am taking that into account, too. That's why the sounding board--to get a little perspective. Their supposed to be coming back next week for more work. Thanks for, well......just hearing me out. I needed the release.
• Whether you're right or wrong about your feelings, the fact remains that you are shaking, ready to cry, and completely uncomfortable, to say the least. That right there is enough for you to ask them to hit the road. You don't need any more reason.
• Zanshin, I am not reporting my concerns to the painting business--I think that would be unfair in light of it just being a 'feeling', I am, however, going to talk to the manager of the property. The lowest bid isn't always the best. Especially with how many breaks these guys take.
• As long as he gets paid for the work he did, you should be fine. One hopes that would be the case. But you never can be 100% sure. My bad experience with the window washer - I did just that. Told him I would pay for the work already done, but the guy refused to leave! The fact that he knew I was on to something made him even more anxious. I resorted to hiding a knife behind my back... just in case... and finally called the police. If you have such strong feelings for a person, you have to handle the situation with great care, IMO.
• I agree with the Capt. Renault that you don't have to have people in or around your house who you don't feel comfortable with, for whatever reason. I do appreciate that getting rid of somebody in these circumstances can be highly stressful, too, though.
• No, that's true, there isn't 100% certainty about it, especially with dealing with creeps.
• Their supposed to be coming back next week for more work. There are other painters out there. Your kids are more important than your window trim. I'm glad that you are talking to your kids about being aware of their surroundings -- this brings up another question for me. As a parent of a 15 mo/old, how do I instill a sense of awareness in my son without making him paranoid or untrusting. I live in an urban enviorenment, and I want him to feel comfortable around other people, but wise, as he grows up. Any advice? I don't want to derail Darshon's thread, so feel free to email me (check my profile for address.)
• (Uh, that was for SMT.)
• Well, their gone now. I think they got the idea, though. My husband made it pretty clear that he did not want them talking to the children, nor did he want the children near them. Jesus, what horrible feeling. I need a bottle of wine.
• Cancel them. Ees better to feel good than to paint good. Your post is mah-velous!
• re reporting to the painting company: I used to manage a large grocery store. Often times people would come to me with possibly unfounded concerns about employees. The first time this would happen, I would politely thank the person making the complaint (and probably think they were a kook.) However, on occassion, I would get similar complaints about an employee, and then I would start making a mental note of it and give more credence to the complaints. I would still talk to the painting company, and let them know what is going on. Relay it to them the same way you did to us and let them know that it is influencing your decision to fire them. They might think you are a kook - so what - or this might be the final complaint they need about the guy.
• Hey, turns out, Zanshin, the guy I'm troubled by is the owner.
• Ooops. Fire 'em.
• I read "The Gift of Fear" after seeing it recommended here on MoFi - by moneyjane, I believe. You might want to read it too, Darshon. And you, Zanshin. Perhaps we have a bad feeling about someone we've just met, or a little gnawing perception that a situation just doesn't "feel right," or perhaps even a fear that a co-worker might do something harmful. What de Becker, renowned expert on violent behavior, explains here is that instead of shrugging off these fears, we need to listen to them, see why we're having them, and act accordingly. Far from being silly intuitions, often these can truly show when something is wrong and violence might be imminent; if listened to, along with information about how violent people behave, these feelings might protect us from harm. Using examples from cases on which he's worked and even from his own childhood of domestic violence de Becker shows how instinct, and knowledge, can warn us of impending violence, whether by stalkers, family members, predators, or people in the workplace.... [T]he book gives sound information (e.g., a detailed listing of behaviors predators use to ensnare victims) in a way that should be helpful to all listeners.
• A terrible situation well handled by yourself and your husband, Darshon, and I am relieved it is over. I don't want to be intrusive or dredge up all-too-recent anxieties but could you describe in more detail what this man did to cause your fear? I'll understand if you have more time for wine than my question and that it might not be anything specific. I hope comfort returns soon and your children have learned a calm lesson or two from your experience.
• Not that I'm discounting the sometimes eerie accuracy of intuition, but I'm glad you didn't make a formal complaint based on a gut reaction. That would probably only get you written off as an emotional hysteric. A much more credible sounding description is 'personality conflict' and if pushed keep it understated: "I'm simply not comfortable with this person." To outright state, or even imply more than that could buy you a lot of boomerang confrontation. A manager will sometimes tell an employee (not in this case, with the icky person being the boss) the exact nature of the complaint. Incredibly *dumb* managers will even reveal the source. At least, with the job finished, he's out and you can forget it.
• That would probably only get you written off as an emotional hysteric. Speaking as someone who's had to deal with his share of hysterical customers (both founded and unfounded), I can say that most businesses will do everything they can within reason to accommodate them. Reduces your risk of future liability, and if it costs the company nothing, all things being equal, the company's happy to comply. But yeah, if you can get him out without playing that card, you're definitely better off.
• I'm with you, too Darshon. Seems that almost every time I've gone contrary to intuition, it's been a mistake.
• Trust your instincts. Call the cops. Do it now. You have nothing to lose by acting on your intuition. You have everything to lose by not acting on it. However, I disagree with the other posters who suggested you should talk to the property manager, the business owner, or your Aunt Sue. Cops can defuse the problem. Even if there's nothing they can do, they make the potential bad guy aware that someone is watching him. All anyone else can do is provide a sound bite on the six o'clock news when the unthinkable happens. Oh, and I second (third?) the vote for Becker's _Gift of Fear_.
• Jerry Junior, I probably wouldn't have been quite as upset had he not gone to the effort of calling her out of the house. Our front door was open, as usual for the kids, and she was in and out. As soon as I saw him, my senses hit me. Way more so when he caught a glimpse of Gabby, in her 'princess' dress, and called out her name as I was calling her to me. She went to see who was calling her outside and I went straight to her and brought her in. I had her change her clothes and had a talk with her, as best as I could without alarming her. My daughter is four, btw. Then, oddly, when I went outside, after having a quick word with my husband about my concerns (he had been asleep after only two hours of sleep in the past 30 hours), I found her at the back of our house with this guy and I let her know in no uncertain terms that this was NOT okay, the guy said it was no problem and I said, yes, it was a problem and it was not to happen as he had work to do. Jerk. In the meantime, my husband had heard this guy talking to our daughter behind the house and was instantly up. He stayed outside virtually the entire time these guys were here. Geez, I still feel kinda' like an idiot over how much I reacted, but, man, I have never been hit so hard with this feeling. Anyway, it's all over, their gone and I need not worry about it. I cannot thank all of you enough for your opinions and advice. As a parent, this is a sickening thing to have to even think about. I would especially thank sugarmilktea and SideDish for their particular thoughtfullness. I know that the Curious George posts get a bit overdone, sometimes, but I can't tell you how much it helped me today. Thank you.
• What is the source of these feelings? Was the guy looking at you or your children strangely? Does he have teardrop tattoos? Antennae? I don't mean to sound flip, but my own perspective is thus: My face naturally frowns, I tend towards quiet and occasionally I catch myself staring at something or someone longer than I should've while my brain was elsewhere. Twice I have had supervisors at various jobs come to me telling me I was "freaking out" co-workers because I gave off "bad vibes." I had absolutely nothing against any of these people and I would never hurt a woman. Hell, it'd take a hell of a lot for me to hurt anybody. So yeah, take precautions, warn your children, talk to your husband, etc. But getting somebody fired because of bad vibes, I think is a bit much.
• waraw, I would say that my source came from what I felt was an 'overfamiliar' way of talking with my daughter. I think it is basic, common sense that people who do contract jobs that brings them into communities with children don't spend their time conversing with those children. Most parents, I believe, would not appreciate strangers drawing their children into conversation. At least, I don't.
• Serves me right for taking ten minutes to compose a post.
• Always trust your gut feelings. You're not overreacting, it's your childs safety I got sick of contractors showing up with workers who were drunks - ex cons - losers. I use Angieslist and havn't had a problem since.
• Thanks for the details, Darshon, as they help me share what you experienced. You did the right thing, of course. Four years is a scary adventurous age. Terrifyingly willful and independant. I hope you are feeling cool now and that the trim looks good. :-)
• There's a paradox about these types of situations. If you're a parent and you don't consider yourself over-anxious about child safety, and you get this scary gut feeling, then you *should* definitely pay attention to it. But like waraw said, you need to dig down and find the facts (and these may often not be obvious) that triggered the mental alert and evaluate it. If on the other hand, you are in a continual state of anxiety over your child's safety then the gut feel could be misleading. I read the Gift of Fear (thanks to mj for the recommendation) as well, and recommend it. It makes the good point that continual anxiety makes one *less* safe, because your intuition is hijacked by irrational preoccupations.
• If you are having such strong "feelings" then I would say that there really are some tangible indicators of this individual's 'out of the norm' interest in the interior of your home and/or your children. Most people simply can't articulate what they are seeing. Discretely watch this fellow's eye movements and facial expressions while he is at your windows and looking at your children or their possessions. Do you then actually see him fixating on something or in some direction that you know is wrong? Do you see an obvious facial change of expression? You are a woman. You know what a man's face looks like when he is looking covetously at a source of sexual desire. sorry, guys I have dealt professionally with these types for over thirty years now, and have never met one that the facial expression can avoid the look of lech, when talking or looking at their chosen stimulation. This will remain true decades after an offence. One doesn't have to doubt their own instincts, but must simply look for the discrete markers that are setting them off. To report to someone that you find this person taking an obvious visual interest in and observable response to your family or home, no matter how subtle, is a viable complaint and should be followed through on by anyone in authority. Law enforcement or building administrative. It might be interesting to find out where this fellow has worked otherwise and find if any offences of an invasive nature have followed his tail. If he has recreational activities with children then one can assume further that he has some predilication for such. And so on and so on... Most definitely increase your static security since he has now had the opportunity to examine every venue of access. Am I the voice of doom? Probably, but I have shaken hands with too many of the f**king a**holes, for all my understanding of the creative dynamics. Never, ever trust someone who seems too interested in your children. *sigh* Watch him and write it down until there is a list or something that details exactly what is making him suspicious. You'll find the indicators, I'm quite sure.
• Oops, babbled too long. Please don't assume it's so easily over, and make sure there is now ready egress to your home. Just in case.
• You guys are all simply amazing. Again, thank you so much. This has helped more than I can say.
• I agree with everyone else. You were totally right to listen to your instincts, and you handled this well. *Any* time an adult uses your child's name without having been introduced to him by the parent beforehand, it's creepy. It's a tactic creepy people use to gain children's trust. (It's the same reason my mom would never let me wear shirts (other than sports uniforms, and only for games) with my name on them -- She let me wear hand-me-downs with a cousin's name, and I can't tell you how many times adult men tried to "pick me up" by saying they knew me and my parents. I would know to run away because they were calling me the wrong name.) Also, the tactic that you used -- saying that your child needed to stay away so as not to distract him from work, and not saying "because you're a scary perv," was really smart.
• Monkey's look after our own, Darshon. You'll give good, calm advice next time I am in trouble I have no doubt. You will never forget this one way or another. And this is a record.
• Somewhat relatedly. Not to be a fearmonger, but. Local TV news reported on this tonight (I'm in SF), and interviewed a mom on the same block where this guy lived, and said she smelled a rat in this guy from the day he moved into the neighborhood, when he called the neighborhood kids over to his front lawn and bought them all ice cream. Creepy. Trust your gut -- what have you got to lose by doing so?
• You handled this very well. I don't know what you could have done better; you protected your family from a very real danger. The emotional pain you have had to deal with while trying to understand what was going on and what you needed to do was a bad thing. However, it is not nearly as bad as the pain you and yours could have suffered had you not done anything. You're not dumping on us; what you went through was truly scary and dangerous, and many of us would try to get some input as well.
• Oh dear, Darshon. I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier. Many hugs to you. And I second dxlifer, keep an eye out for a while, just in case.
• "when he called the neighborhood kids over to his front lawn and bought them all ice cream." NEWS FLASH KIDS LIKE ICE CREAM Stop being such a pussy and TALK to the guy. He's probably just CREEPY in appearance.
• Darshon, I agree with most of what's been said: trust your instincts, change your security measures, and I do think you should talk to the police. They have access to resources that we just don't have, plus it gives them a heads-up. Might make a difference in the long run, and no harm done if the guy is just broody (which seems unlikely: most people in this day and age know that you shouldn't talk to other people's kids without the parents' blessing!) I don't think you should do any private eye stuff, and I don't think you should talk things over with this guy. I do think his company shouldn't come back to do any more painting, since he's the boss. If you can get out of the contract, then get someone else, that bit's easy. That will help you feel that you are taking control of the situation, rather than feeling helpless. You did good to post this question on here! I sincerely hope that everything works out well.
• ActuallySettle, I'll assume you have no children and, therefore, will clue you in to a few basics. First, as others have said, it is NOT generally acceptable for strangers to readily draw children, particularly younger children, in to conversation. Much less go out of your way to call them out of the house. Two, you NEVER buy children whom you don't know ice cream, much less without permission from parents to do so. I would say that most parents develope a real instinct towards those who have a lack of understanding about a childs welfare. These things seem to me to be common sense, and it shouldn't take a whole lot of intelligence to get it.
• BTW, his appearance wasn't at all worrisome, he was completely bland. But beyond that, if he had been covered in piercings, tattoos, scarification, whatever, it wouldn't have changed anything. I have tattoos, and before childbirth, my nipples were pierced, so this "Stop being such a pussy and TALK to the guy. He's probably just CREEPY in appearance." is a naive statement.
• Darshon, you said upthread that this man is a friend of a neighbor and "adopted" her daughter. That sounds very worrisome, and given that connection he may come back to the neighborhood even if you don't hire his company for any more work. I'd have a conversation with the police. Describe his behavior, which was definitely out of whack. If he does anything else creepy in the future, having a record of your past observations will be valuable.
• Oh Darshon, don't feed ActuallySettle. Only a moron would actually believe as he does, and assuming (generously) that he isn't one, he's just being a troll.
• In my view if you have a bad feeling about someone you're nearly always right. Arseholes use the fact that decent people give others the benefit of the doubt to their advantage. It's possible to think that someones arrogant or stand offish when they're not, but danger feelings are usually spot on. He might not be dangerous in the way you thought, but I bet he's violent in some way.
• I bet he's violent in some way Really? The only person who is in a position to bet would be Darshon.
• Well, I hope Darshon never gets to find out. But those who prey on children aren't always physically violent. That is, the scars they leave on children are sometimes only invisible ones.
• Alnedra, it's not just on children. Scars from verbal/psychological abuse happen in adults, as well, and they can go on for years. I'm not sure whether children or adults have a better chance of recovering.
• I know that very well, path. I was speaking of the current context of child molesters, which is why I talked about children specifically.
• What a fucked-up thread. If only parents were as paranoid and careful with their children around their fathers, brothers, and, um, their husbands, as they are with someone painting the windows.
• kmellis, you're assuming Darshon isn't as careful with her children around her relatives as she is around strangers? You got anything - anything at all - to back that assumption up with? If not, how is your statement any less trollish that ActuallySettle's up there?
• Absolutely, kmellis. My daughter was sexually abused by her father. We were recently musing on the perfect Fathers' Day card: Thanks, Dad, for teaching me everything I didn't want to know. Any other good suggestions? There's always next year.
• Believe me, kmellis, I am just as careful with my children around relatives as with anyone else. There are two people in my family that my children are never and have never been left alone with. Not that I am sure that something will happen, but that I am not sure something WON'T happen. My children's welfare is my very first priority at all times, regardless of who is around. My reason for making this post was to 'check myself', so to speak, to use this forum as my sounding board and see if others have had these 'feelings' similiar to mine or just like mine. And, more than that, to have an outlet for my anxiety. So, this thread might seem 'fucked-up' to you, but it helped me more than I can say.