June 03, 2005

Judge orders Abu Ghraib videos, pictures released. [via MeFi]

"The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling, and the worst part is the soundtrack, of the boys shrieking. And this is your government at war."

  • I've said it before, everyone is lucky that there's an ACLU. No other organization seems to remember how to question and verify what their government is doing..
  • I totally agree, BUT if this truly gets out, I think we're gonna see terrorism step up to a whole 'nother level. So while I'm happy to see the truth get out, and hopefully a least some of the folks held accountable, I'm still like "Uh oh....".
  • But John Kerry's a flip-flopper! no, i'm not bitter...
  • This is just one of the many reasons that i have had a ACLU membership longer than a drivers license. Fta "It is indeed ironic that the government invoked the Geneva Conventions as a basis for withholding these photographs,"
  • My favorite comment from the white house was "These pictures and videos can't be released. That would violate the Geneva Convention. The embarassment these prisoners would experience due to the release of this media is cruel and unusual punishment." ...aaaaasssssss opposed to the actual practice of sticking things up their bums, which is fine, I guess?.... wtf?
  • on preview... what mesmer said
  • If what Hersh describes is true (and I can scarcely imagine it is, so fetid is the allegation) but if it is, each and every one of those persons involved should be prosecuted to the fullest - and I mean FULLEST - extent of the law. If true, no one - liberal or conservative - can defend such actions on ANY grounds. I have always been a staunch defender of the military. But if I find this allegation to be the case, and the heaviest of punishments are not levied, they have lost any support I may have held for them.
  • I think we're gonna see terrorism step up to a whole 'nother level. Yes, there have been so many devastating attacks since 9/11/01...
  • "It is indeed ironic that the government invoked the Geneva Conventions as a basis for withholding these photographs," mmm yes, yeesss. Also see here for our long-running saga thread.
  • But if I find this allegation to be the case, and the heaviest of punishments are not levied, they have lost any support I may have held for them. Does that include punishment for the top-level people who've been working so hard to cover this up?
  • see there you go again trying to link some horrific prisoner abuse to the people who regulate and approve horrific prisoner abuse. oh. right.
  • Does that include punishment for the top-level people who've been working so hard to cover this up? Damn straight. Starting with that little patchet-faced buckpasser Karpinsky.
  • I've heard the 'every bad thing said about the army makes their work more difficult and promotes more hatred worldwide' before and it doesn't stick. You think this is not already known around there? Heck, worse things than those Hersh describes can be read on global media. Of course, there was no video or pictures, so, in line with our modern, mediatic public opinion, it didn't happen. But perhaps now there will be images. The worst such thing could bring would be an USA government collapse. And I say 'worst' not because I wouldn't want to see some very big heads roll and end up in jail, but because political unrest there will affect the whole world's economy. As they say, about sleeping near an elephant... But who knows. Maybe they'll twist some scripture quotes and justify every torture and aberration. Blame it on some wacko soldiers that played too much GTA. Blame it on those with the blurred faces for living in a war zone, where this things are bound to happen.
  • I think we're gonna see terrorism step up to a whole 'nother level. Yes, there have been so many devastating attacks since 9/11/01...
    Who needs to attack the US when it mocks itself in the international (and more an more national) public opinion? In the mind of Al Qaeda just doing nothing and in the meantime installing some sleepers future actions might be a better plan of attack. The FUD the US government spreads is more effective than any attack can be.
  • The stench of fascism.
  • Do the wheels of justice still grind slowly but surely? I've been afeared that they had stopped. Maybe the slowly part was just slowlier than I like it. Please let this come out, and come ALL the way out- don't let them get away with laying it on some scapegoat- let the hypocrites, the liars, and the war profiteers at the very TOP of the bottom of the barrel be seen for what they are. By everyone. There may or may not be anything out there to pray to, but in the event that there is that's what I'm praying.
  • I just hope they don't 'misplace' or 'accidentally destroy' the evidence, if the judge succeds in getting them out. Or Mike Tyson eats a dog. : (
  • A gentle reminder: Freedom isn't free.
  • Hello, America, you're fucked.
  • Thanks, Chy. We hadn't already figured that one out. grumble grumble grumble
  • Hello, America, you're fucked. No, that's the problem. That the actions and orders of a cabal of bastards end up raining piss and blood on a whole country's population; their own and others. I, for one, hope this scandal ends up with W's resignation and others in jail, not with attacks on embassies and US nationals. Of course, it's easy to get carried away... ah, good old Q.
  • Flagpole, me too. I just don't think it'll happen.
  • Eh, I wouldn't mind too much if someone got incensed at this video and blew me up in a crowded street corner. It would be a price I've been willing to pay for a long time. How we forget that we re-elected Bush to office. We, as a nation, fucked those women and children in Abu Ghraib (and elsewhere). We, the nation, have the blood of a hundred thousand dead Iraqis on our hands. Every one of us Americans personally. There is no redemption now. We pay the fair price of electing warmongers. The hand of fate has come knocking. It is too late to cower behind furniture.
  • Of course it's not gonna end in W's resignation or any kind of justice. It's too late for that. Far, far too late.
  • Hey, tensor, be careful what you wish for. In that light, just about the entire world is awash in the blood of innocents, for one cause or the other. Oil, water, cheap goods, energy generation, chocolate, sweatshops... it's not a simple world anymore (well, it certainly never was, in fairness). A friend once told me, "it's ALL blood money, nowadays", and in some level, he was right. Which doesn't mean we should offer ourselves as sacrifical lambs that easily. How about making those directly responsible pay?
  • W's resignation or any kind of justice Of course. Like in most crime situations, nothing can be done to fully heal the damage. But what should be pursued is the stop of such abominations from continuing.
  • The only thing that will stop it continuing is execution of the ringleaders in government, senate and media.
  • Actually, it's not America that is fucked, it's the whole goddamn planet. Let's face it the facts monkeys. It doesn't matter to the uber-wealthy what their nationality is. Their money and investments are spread around the world. These people go beyond borders. They trade in power and wealth. Because they are so wealthy, they are for the most part immune to "petty" laws and Nationalism is the drum they beat for the for the cultural conservatives, not something they actually believe in. If it would have further consolidated the Bush family's power, they would have gladly moved to South Africa, Mexico,... you name it. Nationalism is yet another shiny toy they wave at the gullible. Bread and circuses, bread and circuses...
  • Our leaders will implement the scorched earth policy, destroying the US and several countries with it.
  • tensor That's exactly what I'm afraid of, we all agree that we don't like what's going on, feel 'resistance is futile', hope that whatever happens the rest of the world isn't going to someday bust our asses for it, but somehow I think this will eventually end up like Germany at the end of WWII. And this time *we're* the germans . . .
  • Wingnut Plan: 1) Piss off muslims, 2) (liberal elitist) cities in blue states get things flown into them, 3) we get to start more wars!
  • Yeah, those Germans pretty much lost all perspective.
  • What I'm concerned about are all the base closings as they consolidate bases where? where? In The South! What's next, starting the Blue and Grey all over again with us as the South's bitch? *shudder* /slight derail, apologies
  • STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT Shaddup, Chyren. I don't need to be reminded that I live in a HOUSE that is going to be firebombed at any moment. I understand my complicity in the whole supress-the-illegals thing. I am accutely aware of the injustices occuring in the rest of the WORLD. I don't like my goverment's policies, but I am committed to my country. The US military may be a laughingstock, but it's all I have to count on now. What else is more powerful? I am a walking target; would it do any good to trash my government? Would it do any good to disparage my military? How many of you cowards hang back and assume my military (consisting of my children) will cover your butts?
  • Cynnbad, I don't know if you are including me in the "coward" category, but I have never disparaged our military. I will cop to trashing the government, but not the military. These are folks who for little money and even less accolades put their lives on the line, even for a war like this that was built on a fucking lie. I am working on two documentaries that deal with the US military. One about women in the military during war time, the other on the vets and their families from this bullshit war. BTW, being against this war and this lying administration is not the same as being against the military. I have interviewed many people in both documentaries that feel the same way, so can the hyperbole. You can be anti war and pro military.
  • Whether now or in another few years, the whole boiling mess -- not just Abu Ghraib, but Guantanamo and the sending of prisoners to countries which routinely torture prisoners -- all will come out. It has been coming out for years, it is just not widely known yet in the US. And why do I say it will come out? Because there are enough people who find this kind of thing worthy of condemnation and will work to expose it, and once it is exppsed, condemn it roundly. And hopefully enough pressure will be generated int he process that retribution will fall on the heads of some if not all of the major players. And a great number of those people will be Americans. Such revelatiory procedures always take time. But McCarthy was finally seen for what he was, the maltreatment of black people was finally seen for what it is, Nixon was finally seen for what he was, and I am convinced, despite the slowness of the process, that eventually the Bush administration will be revealed for what it is and condemned for what it has done. The majority of Americans still wish to see those principles and human aspirations which underlie the Constition become the reality. America has always been about becoming something other than what it seems to be at any given point in time. , The indignation and outrage many monkeys feel now will be shared by others as matters are revealed. Ideas of justice and freedom and human rights are always more powerful than any military. Or any politician. Or any government. Whoever told you or gave you the impression you could take such things for granted lied to you -- we have to keep what we would become, what we wish to turn into, firmly in mind all the time, lest this happen again. And I have primnary confidence, not in laws, or in administrations, or courts, but in the desire of the majority of human beings to live peacefully and treat one another fairly and reasonably.
  • BUT if this truly gets out, I think we're gonna see terrorism step up to a whole 'nother level. Um, no. Anyone interested in committing terrorist acts against the U.S. either already knows this stuff is going on or believes it.
  • And you can disparage the military and not be a coward. You can hold any opinion you like and not be any particular thing. The name game is not a valid means of debate.
  • >How many of you cowards hang back and assume my military (consisting of my children) will cover your butts? Get your children out of the military. George Bush is not donating his kids to his war; nor should you. It seems to me that the cowardly thing is to support a war that you're confident will be fought over the smoking ruins of some other guy's country.
  • That reminds me, Stan, of Bill Maher's comment about the language used by the admin to describe the 9/11 terrorists -- as "cowards". Bill's comment: well they're terrorists but they certainly don't seem like cowards. Just another example of how we'll use language any damn way we please. Enemies (and naysayers) are automatically cowards. Victims are automatically heroes.
  • What squidranch said. Folks, I'm boiling inside... I am involved in a high-level investigation directly realted to events dealing with Iraq. Daily, I am exposed to documents, evidence and multitudes of damning info from officials, politicians, world leaders, business whores, etc... My eyes see things that only a few others in this world have seen. I wish I could let it all out and expose all the dastardly bullshit that exists around each and everyone of us. What I have learned - - there truly are no borders to the atrocities that have taken place of recent (and surely will take place). It's one after another, greed, control, corruption-infused-bloody power mongers! They don't give a fuck about us/them/anyone but themselves. Blood for money, damn straight! It's so utterly depressing and grotesque. My son turns one year old next week, and I often fear for what he will witness in his life. Aaargh! I fantasize almost daily about leaking out some of this info - - - and then I'd probably be whisked away to some unknown land to be forgotten forever... Most likely something similar to the ending of 1984. And on a bizarre side note, today the smart employees at an unnamed express courier warehouse at an airport in NYC tried desperatly to give me the wrong crate - - which was labeled as being from the "Israeli Military"!! My collegues said I should have taken it, was probably loaded with some hi-tech weaponary... damn, I missed my chance.
  • No; the great irony is to send your children into this seneless war. Then we will lose a generation or two and maybe we will recover from the ecological disasters we have wrought. Of course, we'll be gone then.
  • And what beeswacky said as well... poignant and hopeful. Was nice to read. Hmm, maybe I gave away a bit too much there in my outburst?
  • There is no comfort in the truth
  • Well, the truth is pretty ugly in this instance. The comfort is not so much in the truth as it is in the fact, or the hope, that the truth will out, even when it seems like the liars have all the cards.
  • Um, any way a moderator can change the username on the 5:27AM and 5:56AM posts to "Anonymous"? Assuming the poster isn't full of shit, I'm kinda worried about them. (Jesus, this DOES feel like 1984...)
  • Aaargh! I fantasize almost daily about leaking out some of this info - - - and then I'd probably be whisked away to some unknown land to be forgotten forever... Most likely something similar to the ending of 1984. Hey sugarmilktea- we could use a new Deep Throat- I'm not saying you should be the guy but just mentioning the vacancy that position.
  • maybe I gave away a bit too much Not really, as I think your identity is safe with Tracy and #2, who are fairly untouchable by the long arm of US law. But, if you don't mind a word of advice from a clueless civillian who really has no business lecturing a professional, please be careful of what you reveal on the internets. Don't throw your life away foolishly. No amount of paranoia is too much when you're dealing with the guv'mint, especially one as crooked as the one in power.
  • If the military is worried about negative repercussions from their torture tactics, they should've thought of that beforehand. How are you going to actively look for ways to get away with torture, and at the same time complain about the negative effect it has on your job?
  • Also, if you're serious about spilling some beans, talk to Sy Hersh. He answers his own phone.
  • Well, sugarmilktea, if you ever decide to go public, remember me. I will treat you with respect and get your message out before they can whisk you "away to some unknown land." And if not, then do your best to bring these demagogues down from the inside before they can do any more damage. Eight years is enough.
  • hey, you all, don't be blue, you're my crew
  • Um, any way a moderator can change the username on the 5:27AM and 5:56AM posts to "Anonymous"? Not before Monday!
  • All it ever takes is for enough good men to remain quiet for enough of the injured to keep it to themselves for enough of the politicians to duck an issue for enough of the media not to follow leads for enough of the well-meaning not to express outrage for enough news-editors to say this isn't what people want to know and that is how we end up here where everybody lives ion fear
  • =in fear, although on fear works too
  • I like "ion fear". Sounds all futuristic. Star Trek XVI -- Ion Fear
  • we could use a new Deep Throat We could call him/her Analingus.
  • "Would it do any good to disparage my military? How many of you cowards hang back and assume my military (consisting of my children) will cover your butts?" Please name one occasion in recent memory where they 'covered my butt'? When have they ever done anything but fuck something up or involve themselves in military interventions for the sake of their political & industrial masters? The Australian military were in WW2 from the get-go, unlike some I could mention. It's that kind of delusional nonsense that makes people laugh at Yanks.
  • Assuming the poster isn't full of shit, I'm kinda worried about them. I wish I was! Sadly, am not... I think it is fair to say that there are much larger reasons for recent events - than what we, the general public, are led to "believe." Thanks squid...
  • But McCarthy was finally seen for what he was, the maltreatment of black people was finally seen for what it is, Nixon was finally seen for what he was, and I am convinced, despite the slowness of the process, that eventually the Bush administration will be revealed for what it is and condemned for what it has done. Bees, you paint a glowing picture of what should be, but isn't. Yes, SOME Americans have the realization now that these men are evil. Most don't. Were McCarthy and Nixon punished? Were they hurt financially? Not hardly. Did they continue in positions of power and influence with the 'good ol' boys'? Sure did. The continued to represent our country and lectured our children. Maybe there is no Illuminati, but there's sure an evil stinkin' bunch with a metric buttload of money and the power to be able to sell themselves off as saviors and nice guys. There are the 'royal'familys that are entrenched in politics, and I don't think the stink of their corruption will ever be eradicated. What astounds me is the number of people who are fooled by their propaganda and salesmanship. If they wear the right suits and blow-dry their hair, people think they're on the side of Everyman. If the elected were not corrupt to begin with, they either get out of politics quick, or the absolute power works it's magic. Politics is no longer a way to serve the people, it's a shell game used to garner power and riches.
  • What Chyren said and…”Please name one occasion in recent memory where they 'covered my butt'?”.. Vietnam….no, Panama… no, Somalia…no, Granada… no and on and on. And as far as the Nixon administration being seen for what it was, hmmm not really. How many former (tricky dick) Nixon people have high ranking jobs? Lots. And if anyone has not read War Is a Racket by Smedley Butler please do so, it shows this kind of crap has been going on for a long long time. (also mentioned here)
  • >an evil stinkin' bunch with a metric buttload of money Pour all the money you can lay your hands on into the military- keep spending until there is nothing left for anything else- and YOU WILL BE SAFE. Children won't be educated; workers won't be insured; old people will eat dog food; with nothing invested in their remedies, crime, violence, and hopelessness will be multiplied; unregulated industry will inflict catastrophic damage upon the environment; and incidentally, terrorists, like bugs that are smaller than the holes in your screen door, will come and go as they please. BUT AT LEAST YOU'LL BE SAFE. After twenty years of this, we go to war; and lo- our soldiers are underequipped! And behold- we have to hear Rumsfeld babbling about going to war with the army you have! What sort of army should we have after a twenty-years-long defense-spending orgy? Where do you suppose all that money went? >an evil stinkin' bunch with a metric buttload of money
  • Is the metric buttload larger or smaller than the standard buttload?
  • Didn't you people get the memo? The army is so undertrained and underequipped because Clinton decimated the military. Decimated! While getting blow jobs in the oval office. The oval office, for crying out loud! Is it any wonder that 99.99999% of the military support our rightful Commander in Chief, the honorable President, elected by a mandate, of the U.S. of A., the best country ever to have existed, under God, with liberty and freedom and liberty and freedom and freedom and liberty? I think not. Now excuse me, I need to buy fifty more yellow support-the-troops magnets (made in China) to clothe my six SUVs.
  • I think it's, like, a CUBIC buttload. I think when they start drafting people, they should start with everybody who has one of those 'support the troops' magnets.
  • OK, OK. I concede your points, Chyren and others. Sorry to run screaming into the thread, limbs akimbo. After a nice happy pill and a good night's sleep, I have to admit that my personal military isn't performing up to par, and will be given a stern dressing-down. By someone other than me, because I am powerless and frustrated, albeit unwillingly involved in this fiasco.
  • Were McCarthy and Nixon punished? Well, BlueHorse, I would say so, yes, but not all may agree with me there. Nixon, following his resignation from office, became a near-recluse in the latter part of his life. No one kissed or missed him, certainly no one spoke out in defense of his actions or his sanctioning the break-in. Nixon was compelled to resign. Some of his cohorts were imprisoned -- it was decades before Nixon would emerge briefly into the public eye to appear in group photos with other former presidents. (Look! five of them , isn't that amazing...my, my...) He never held power or public offic again, and I believe occupied himself writing embittered memoirs. You are correct in that McCarthy was not punished in a legal fashion, since what he was doing in his latter life (senate Committee chairman etc) was of course perfectly legal. But McCarthy became most unpopular with the general public following broadcasts of some of those hectoring Senaate hearings and if I recall correctly appearing on Edward R Murrow's radio show. Hus name became a byword for witch-hunting tactics. McCarthy, too, became embittered by the public's aversion -- and in my view he punished himself by becoming an alcoholic, a condition which led to his dying before he turned fifty. Had he lived longer I do not know if he would have been subjected to any sort of legal censure. But though he came to be held in widespread public aversion, he was not otherwise punished, just publicly excoriated as one who let down the American side by becoming something as detestable as the thing he feared. Nixon seemed a sad instance of a basically bright fellow who apparently needed to win at any cost, and thus overstepped the bounds, while McCarthy in his character seemed very like like that Father Coughlin fellow, a rabble-rouser and a fear-monger. Seems whenever Americans become frightened, they somehow lose or mislay the ability to maintina the usual system of checks and balances on government -- one of the greatest weaknesses I see in the political system of the US. But all countries have flaws and difficulties -- those of the US, because of its size and influence, are just more widely publicized.
  • By the end of his lifetime Nixon was widely regarded as an elder statesman rather than as a lousy crook, was he not? He certainly spent a few decades being really embarassed, but I'm not sure that's really the same thing as being punished.
  • [A]ll countries have flaws and difficulties -- those of the US, because of its size and influence, are just more widely publicized I am surprised you think that. From here it seems that the flaws of the US are only visible to those outside our borders. We have a mythology about ourselves of moral perfection. We haven't developed the shame of our history in the way that the English (for example) have about their Imperial days, or the Germans about their World War days, or the Japanese or the Russians and so on. We Americans have no shame, though we have much to be shameful about. We are shocked by our sins of unjustified invasion and torture of innocents, while we commit them. We find it unbelievable that our president lies to us to help his cronies, yet we do our best to cover it up and pretend he has our best interests at heart. We are sickened by the corruption of our leaders, but we kiss their boots and preach their good name. Many of us will never believe the truth about ourselves because it doesn't fit the schema. How can we be immoral? How can Americans be the bad guys? It does not compute! We are the worst sinners, because we think we are incapable of sin.
  • Tensor- this is why it's so important for Presidents to be able to start wars. If we had to have a debate in Congress- or worse yet, a national debate in the public- about whether we might or might not be wrong to send soldiers to this place or that place, nothing would EVER get done. But once we've ALREADY SENT the soldiers, and some of them have been killed, the question changes from 'would we be wrong to do this' to 'is what we are actually in fact doing RIGHT NOW wrong?' And the only possible (public) answer to that question is: no; of course not. Because we are Americans. Ten in the morning on a Sunday is too early to be depressed...
  • I don't have any recollection of Nixon's ever being regarded as an elder statesman by anyone subsequent to his resignation, Stan the Bat. A survivor. (Oh, Nixon? Yes ... well, I suppose he's still alive...) When Nixon was Eisenhower's vice president he made a trip to China, which was reported in glowing terms in the US and world press since at that time the cold war face-off was well underway. Later, running against Humphries, he promised to end the Viet Nam war. As president, despite his saying he had a plan to do bring this to pass, , he didn't get anywhere with it for some time, so the war didn't end for another four or five years, with consequent loss of life, sit-ins and protests, and of course escalating expenses. The Viet Nam war caused increasing discontent in the States. It got violent -- the Kent State shootings happened and other campus unrest. Armed National Guardsmen were placed on a number of US campuses. Somewhere in here, I recall Nixon also ordered a bombing campaign of Cambodia, neglexting to tell Congress or the media he had done so -- but that was only one of many reasons he was popularly called Tricky Dicky. Nixon was indeed ultimately responsible for the way the Viet-Namese war was conducted in its end phase and for its conclusion, when rapid American withdrawal simply abandoned many Vietnamese who'd sided with the US, leaving them to their fate. Many folk, inside and outside the US, still regard this as an embarassing blotch on the military/political record of the US. He fired one of the Watergate prosecutors before public outcry put the kibosh on firing subsequent ones. Exciting times! Constituational crises -- head-on collision between executive and lagislative branches. Such doings are not generally thought to characterize great statesmen in democratic countries. Ford, as president, hastily pardoned Nixon before any formal charges could be made against him by Congress or special prosecutiors. Public reactions to this fiat cost Ford any remotre chance he might have had to be re-elected. Usually takes a long period after someone in the public eye dies before any kind of objective grasp can be gained or thier attainments or lack therefof, but I am simply flabbergasted by the idea Nixon could ever be regarded as a statesman of even the most paltry description.
  • From today's NY Times. "The people at the top of America's money pyramid have so prospered in recent years that they have pulled far ahead of the rest of the population, an analysis of tax records and other government data by The New York Times shows. They have even left behind people making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Call them the hyper-rich."
  • "...there is a lot of debate about whether or not Mark Felt was a hero. Obviously, I don't think so. I think the hero was Richard Nixon, fighting for peace even as he was being horribly mistreated and crucified just for his fight for peace." Ben Stein on Felt and Nixon. via MeFi.
  • it's been reported that Matrk Felt's at least part Jewish Aye, there's a mind to conjure blunder with. /sarcasm
  • I believe that Ben Stein has officially jumped the friggin' shark. How horribly revisionist one's memory can get...
  • >"I think the hero was Richard Nixon, fighting for peace even as he was being horribly mistreated and crucified just for his fight for peace." I tole you so. No, seriously, it seems to me he was often spoken of with that kind of reverence in his late years- not just after he died, when it was sort of forgivable since it's a bit mean-spirited to spit in a bucket at the mention off the name of someone who's recently passed. I could try to google up some substantiation for my impression, but it seems like a waste of a perfectly good Sunday afternoon, the balance of which I've spent catching tiny baby frogs (you could fit two of 'em on a penny) and trying to transfer them into my daughter's cupped hands.
  • >at the mention off 'of', obviously.
  • Clearly, I haven't been reading the right things, Stan ... and now my blood is thoroughly curdled!
  • Damn straight. Starting with that little patchet-faced buckpasser Karpinsky Karpinsky? Kar-fucking-pinsky? Surely you fucking jest. Karpinsky passed the buck because that's what she was told to do by the higher-ups. She played the good little soldier and got sold down the river by the DoD for it. You wanna start pointing fingers, start with Rumsfailed. Then hop on his PNAC cronies and every last one of those other chickenhawk bullshit artists who've never seen a second of actual, nearly-piss-your-pants-combat, but somehow deem themselves the final authority on when and where the US should go to war.
  • Ya don't say.
  • And again... The government has 20 days to consider an appeal To follow in pete's sentiment, Ya don't say!
  • Ah, guess I should have re-worded my link above...