February 15, 2005

• Okay, I won't. But that last link is pretty dysfunctional. The menu doesn't seem to have good html.
• I didn't know you "chose" to become anorexic. I always thought it was a disorder that came about because you wanted to be thinner - a mental glitch that was a side-effect of extreme dieting and poor self-image. These girls (assuming there's more than one or two in the first link - the poor spelling implies one girl pretending to be many) seem to think anorexia is a diet, like Atkins or something.
• Well, to be fair, anorexia is a bit more complex than wanting to be thin. In fact, it's possible to have it happen without any concern for body image at all - things such as issues with control or disgust with the process of excretion. If a person lives in a really bad situation, they may feel that the only thing they have control over is what they put in their bodies, so they try to regulate that to an extreme degree. That said, it goes without saying that anorexia in all its forms is dangerously unhealthy. Unfortunately, it seems today that a remarkable amount of people struggle with it at some point.
• God, y'know, I can deal with porn, Nazism, bigotry and gore, and yet this sort of thing makes me queasy. The most dangerous thing is the "if it's not a disease, I don't need to get better" line of thought. Just creeps me out. (And y'know, if liberals and conservatives were looking to make bedfellows, this'd be a good start. The divisions come when you start to try to figure out what should be done about it...)
• Monkeyfilter: If it's not a disease, I don't need to get better.
• Some of those girls were hot YES THERE HAS BEEN A LULL IN MY VALENTINES DAY PLANS THEY WILL CONTINUE IN A MOMENT.
• I made the mistake of following a trail of links to an SI (self-injury) picture album. It made me almost physically ill, and this from somebody who cruises rotten.com and bangedup.com on a fairly regular basis. I guess it's the idea that people do this to themselves that wigs me out - because at least if somebody else did it, there's a chance the cutter would be charged with assault, or the victim removed from the situation. But because these people do it to themselves they'll continue cutting for years, as seen by the incredible amounts of scarring. It seems so lonely and it makes me want to cry.
• MonkeyFilter: porn, Nazism, bigotry and gore. God I love this place! Oh, and there's nothing so bad a nice pan of scouse can't fix.
• moneyjane: *pat pat* would it help a bit if I said not all of them do it for years? Sometimes people recover from it, or reconcile themselves to the situation that causes them to self-injure. Although I only have anecdotal evidence. I know of a girl who did it and later stopped. I used to do it to myself (although not with knives; split my knuckles open by banging them repeatedly against the wall till they bled; or banged my head against the wall till I almost blacked out). But I'm all right now, mostly (^_^) Have hope. The world is not as dark as it sometimes seems.
• Another interestic tack, though, would be the sort of weird history of 'fasting girls' through the Spiritualist movement and the Victorian period. My google-fu fails me except in dredging up a 19th century text called "Spiritualism and Allied Causes and Conditions of Nervous Derangement." I read a very interesting article? section of the book "Fasting Girls? when I was an undergrad and I'm kind of surprised that I can't find any of this online.
• Heavens, Alnedra - only mostly?!?
• *searches in drawer for cotton wool and train times to Loughborough*
• (I'm probably going to hell because my mind finished that first phrase "...and immediately faint from anemia." Sorry, I've got a dark sense of humor.) Not surprisingly, this is giant on Livejournal. There's also "pro-mia," pro-bulimia. See, they have cute, feminine names because anorexia is so cute and feminine, don't you know. It's spawned a parody too, which is darkly funny (very darkly... very) if you've read anything in this pro-ana vein. The internet allows all sorts of groups to congregate along all sorts of lines, is the thing, free of pressure from "sabotaging" (read: well-meaning) parents, friends, teachers and health-care professionals. They can run free, or they would, if it wouldn't make their bones shatter. I'm torn: I feel sorry for these girls because they're ill, but at the same time they enjoy being ill, and that I find frustrating. I never enjoyed being depressed, so I don't really understand the mindset that leads one to celebrate the thing that preys on you. It's so, so warped. They need help, but they think they're right and we're all wrong. In my mind the frustrating part really doesn't necessarily have anything to do with social pressure, beauty ideals, or anything like that. It's an intensely warped view of the world, like paranoia.
• Found from Wurwilf's first link, Anorexic Dogs on LiveJournal.
• Yeah, when I was a kid, I used to bang my head on a wall, or intentionally hurt myself when I was really angry.. It just came from a feeling of powerlessness. Strangely enough, video games really helped me overcome that self-destructive behavior... (of course, I have left a trail of broken controllers now...)
• That last website link... Wow. That site designer should be taken outside and shot. What part of "text should not be the same color as the background" are these people not understanding? Pro-anorexia. I really had thought that I might have heard everything, every little weird fetish, but then some freak decides that being a walking skeleton is a lifestyle choice. I simply do not understand people. However, my evidence that people in general are largely stupid appears to be growing.
• I pronounce this: EXTRA CREEPY.
• Wow. Two taglines, and a link to a pro-scurvy community that is hilarious. Good things came out of anorexia! Yay! Go, anorexics, go!
• The human race is a mess. If we're not abusing ourselves we're abusing others or we're abusing others for abusing themselves and others. lol!
• clf: Is it any more disturbing than a bunch of clinicly obese people who sue airlines because they tink it's the airlines' fault they take up two seats.
• umm ... yeah, it is.
• I'd think the mental warpage that goes along with anorexia is more severe than the sense of entitlement that an airplaine-suer is exhibiting. I don't think the airplane-suer has an overarching worldview that revolves around their own overweightness, boiling down literally every problem on earth into "are you fat enough". Anorexics do. The airplane-suer is just a garden-variety asshat who happens to use their weight as an excuse. (Some people use money as an excuse to be asshats too. People will take any excuse to be asshats.) It's not about weight, really. That's the instrument they use to exhibit their mental fuckedupness, but it's not the cause. The two aren't even parallel.
• "People will take any excuse to be asshats." Amen and indeed.
• rogerd: No, probably not. I personally find it relatively disgusting that I live in a country with a large number of people who have to remove 90% of their own stomachs just to keep from eating themselves to death. That is, to put it mildly, pretty fucked up right there. (Not that eugenics was a great idea or anything, but something tells me that our collective gene pool could stand to have the filters changed...)
• Maybe they should just stop eating! Then they'd be mentally fucked but pretty!!! ...I'll stop. I'm not getting through, and I'll know when to quit for once. OMG, fat people are gross and thin people are hott. Doesn't mean that one is mentally healthy and one is mentally unhealthy. ALL of these people need help. It's not a good vs. evil scenario where one is worse than the other, thus meaning that the other is okay. Yes, the obese would be well served with mental help to undo their bad habits as well as physical training to get rid of what they've already done. So would anorexics. One is not absolved merely because the opposite is also bad. ...I'll shut up now, this well-it's-okay-because-the-opposite-is-bad bit is making me want to punch a wall.
• The obese would be best served by ending the use of corn syrup as a sweetner in frickin' EVERYTHING, despite research suggesting it contributes worse than other sugars to obesity. In the states, you can't get away from it - unless you pay through the nose for all natural everything (which I'm at the point of doing - %100 juice, Hagen Das icecream (actual cream and sugar - a little is better than a big bowl of anything else), but that isn't a real solution. Oh yeah, and maybe get the work week down to something decent and human - how the hell are people suposed to excercise if they are already exhausted? A job can be sedentary and draining.
• Maybe the government should create some kind of camps for the obese where their diets would be restricted and they would have to submit to physical exercise until they've attained acceptable weights and are deemed fit and attractive enough to re-enter our beautiful and perfect society. Those who fail the program will, of course, be shot.
• I will say that one of the funniest moments of Craig Kilborn's tenure at the Daily Show was when he came out as pro-ana, under the guise of having more hot skinny chicks...
• Yeah, I remember Howard Stern saying the same thing.
• Goodbye, folks. I'm not morbidly obese, but I decided years ago that trying to meet the one-size-fits-all was not in ny abilities. You're making me cry, and I thought better of you than what I'm seeing here. It was nice while it lasted.
• I don't know enough about the history of body image and sexual politics to make any bold assertions, but I suspect that Western society in general is quickly becoming more and more concerned with these things to the detriment of all, and the micro-differences in the marginalized groups are becoming more pronounced. How can so many people be unhealthy due to obesity and anorexia, while the population of those who fall into neither camp seems to be falling, yet many of those who might be called 'normal' are still suffering because they eat garbage and don't exercise enough? Have we become so disconnected from the concept of working for sustenance that we are doomed to be unclear as a society as to how to feed ourselves?
• Well, there's a happy ending, everybody.
• Yup. Anti-bananas.
• path - you certainly aren't alone. A fair while ago I realised that I couldn't be thin without becoming something I would hate - a woman obsessed with food, never enjoying dessert, never happy with herself. I would much rather be my decidedly round self than that. The poor health isn't from overeating - most overweight people eat just the same as those who are not, often less, if their metabolism has been slowed by dieting. Western poor health is a combination of poor food (sometimes by choice, but also from lack of alternatives) and the biggest villain - a world without physical excercise. Cities are too large to walk, work traps you in a desk - and then we come home to sedentaryness. Change has to come from all directions. We, as individuals, need to try to be healthier. But we, as a society, must act as well. And this is worlds away from the pro-ana debate. That just frightens me - and funny, their thin-spriration pictures are not even very attractive. I'm bi, I know a cute girl when I see one, and last time I checked, that meant round cheeks, and curvy other bits. The curves are the best bits. (They are on the boys too, in a different way.)
• Hey, path, the 'concentration camp' scenario was actually supposed to be sarcasm. There seems, from the headlines and tv lately, to be some kind of war on fat people (not just obesity) and its ferocity reminds me of other sorts of campaigns against certain groups. I hate this diet obsessed society we've got going here. Sometimes I think dieting has actually contributed to the thickening waists of Americans. Eating disorders are another symptom of our culture's obsession with being thin. The whole thing sucks, really.
• You know, I'm overweight. I am overweight, I always have been overweight, I always will be overweight. Thanks to the syndrome that I have to live with, losing weight is pretty much an impossibility unless I go on a starvation level diet. It's got nothing to do with what I eat, how much I eat, or how much or how little exercise I get. I was undiagnosed for most of my life, and so I blamed myself for my weight. All my life people would make their mean-spirited, hurtful "jokes" about my weight, and a lifetime of it led me to hate myself with a pure and utter loathing that few of you would probably understand. You have to live it before you can understand what it's like to be there. I began really trying to break that mindset about five years ago, and only began to be anything approaching comfortable with myself starting about two years ago. It's only within the last year that I have been able to look in the mirror and see that while I may not be some great beauty, I have some truly lovely features and may actually be pretty despite what I thought of myself for most of my life. One year of any degree of self-confidence versus 35 years of mostly absolute self-loathing. At this point, self-confidence is still real shakey, and I have my bad days. I'm just glad that the day I clicked into this thread wasn't one of them. I probably wouldn't be saying anything even so, were this the only example I've seen here on MoFi of fat-bashing. I've seen it here and there, more so in the last month than at any other time. Were this it, then I'd probably grit my teeth and tell myself that it's just joking around, no matter how it made me feel. But quite frankly, these "jokes" are just as hurtful and feel to me as if they carry just as much of an undercurrent of hate as those people who verbally attack me on the street. In many ways, this is worse. The Monkeys here have become friends, for all I've met none of you in person. So, for me, there is an added feeling of betrayal that makes it all much worse. Even though it's not all the primates here that have made these unfunny, hurtful, hateful "jokes" (and maybe even think of them as jokes without realizing how they're going to come across to someone else) I find it hard to be someplace where I might click on a thread and get ambushed by these things. I do not need help to turn back into the self-loathing person I once was. It's a daily fight not to be that person without comments to hit those triggers. So, I will bid a fond goodbye to most of the Monkeys here, and many of you I will miss. Those who felt it was perfectly alright to exhibit that kind of hate disguised as jokes, the displeasure was all mine and the loss is all yours. Byebye now.
• Let people do to their body whatever they want to do to it. If they want to be ana or obese, great. Let 'em do it. If they want to cut themselves or get a tattoo, great. Let 'em do it. If they want to bleach their hair or get a really dark tan, great. Let 'em do it. If they want messy hair, stinky feet, long nails, bad breath, a booger hanging from their nose, tape on their glasses, their shirt tucked in, their pants pulled up to their armpits, or to wear smelly perfume, then GREAT. LET THEM DO IT. It's their own body. If they have made a choice that they want it a certain way, then good for them. If their body is a certain way that they haven't chosen, then you don't have a right to bitch at them for it. They're much more inconvenienced by it than you are. You don't like her mustache? Tough, it's not your body and it's out of her control. You don't like the zits on his face? Tough, it's not your body and it's out of his control. If they succeed in "correcting" the issue, it's for their own peace of mind, not yours. So either way, let them be. It's their body not yours; you don't have a right to bitch about someone else's body.
• Please don't leave us, Path, Christophine. Not permanently.
• Path, Christophine and Beeswacky. All on the same day. /deep mourning
• BEESWACKY? huh? i leave for 24 hours to see the Westminster dog show and what happens? sheesh. *goes to investigate*
• I think it's all of a piece: compulsive overeating, anorexia, bulimia, fat-bashing, people who loudly congratulate themselves on their virtue because they "eat well". It's all pathological. The common denominator is contempt. Those that compulsively overeat have contempt for themselves because our society has contempt for them. Anorexics and bulimics have contempt for all "fat people" and they secretely believe that includes themselves. People who fetishize "healthy eating" have contempt for all those "disgusting" people that don't take care of their bodies. Contempt, contempt, contempt. The contempt is a sign that something's pathological, out-of-balance. I can't think of a single great religious/metaphysical/philosophical tradition that doesn't warn against physical vanity and placing too great of importance on one's body. A healthy body is a means to an end, or a sign of well-ordered soul. It's not an end in itself. Relative to how one treats other people, the things that one creates in this world, how one nurtures one's soul...how one treats one's own body is a poor measure of virtue. Yet all of the groups listed above harshly judge other people on that basis. And in my opinion, the presence of contempt as a primary personality trait is a better measure of vice and pathology than is physical appearance.
• The common denominator is contempt. Amen. Though narcissism often enters the picture as well. It's not common to all of those examples, but certainly is there in every "helpful" comment that tells you what to change about your appearance, belief system, values, lifestyle, etc. -- every pronouncement from on high. When unsolicited, these comments have nothing at all to do with an honest desire to help. They spring only from a desire to display superiority and condescend to the poor, ignorant, uncontrolled masses. Like when my countrymen worked to "civilize" the native tribes.
• As a fat girl myself - and one who, incidentally, is about as secure with her body as anyone she's ever met - I, too, am made tremendously uncomfortable by the level of fat-bashing I've seen on this site. It's one of the last frontiers of insults, one of the last groups of people you're allowed to judge by their outsides. I don't stuff myself with Twinkies, and I rarely eat fast food (excepot for the last week or so, when I've been inundated by work and pulling double-duty. Up until then, I hadn't eaten a fast food sandwich in over 6 months). I cook for myself. I bake my own bread and make my own soup stock. But the judgment seems to be that if you're fat, you obviously just stuff yourself with butter and ice cream all day. As a website supposedly devoted to some sort of spirit of community, I'm surprised to see this kind of crap here. I really am. Every time I see it, I wince for myself and for a couple other self-identified fat girls here. You have no idea the shit you have to go through as a kid who's fat. I have exercise-induced migraines and have since I was seven. Try exercising when it sends you to the hospital. After a round of CT scans and MRIs and all that happy crap, a doctor said to my mother when I was nine, "just make her exercise, she'll grow out of it." Migraines, six months straight. I've maintained a weight to within five pounds for over 3 years now. It's just very difficult for me to LOSE any, and I've not suffered any particularly awful effects from my weight except people's fucking condescension, including that of doctors.
• argh, hit post too soon. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, the kind of shit judgment you people impose is ridiculous and stupid. The whole "oh, SOME of those people have medical conditions but probably not all of them" is really nice. Really fucking nice. It disparages people who have actual problems and basically calls them liars. For a group of such normally sensitive people, you've mostly dropped the ball.
• Maybe I'm just an asshole, or confused or something, but what exactly was the flashpoint for Path and Christine to leave? I'm looking for unhealthy anti-fat sentiments and I'm really not seeing any. The Kilborn joke was definitely meant, at least on the show, to be dark and sarcastic. And what, the only real bashing here has been about morbidly obese people on airplanes. Even rotund people should be able to realize the difference between healthy and unhealthily obese, right? Everyone could do with eating better (more balanced, whole grain/fruits and veggies meals, etc.) and nearly everyone could do with more exercize. If that's anti-fat to the point of persecution, than maybe you're being a bit irrational...
• js: I think comments like this have something to do with it: "I personally find it relatively disgusting that I live in a country with a large number of people who have to remove 90% of their own stomachs just to keep from eating themselves to death. That is, to put it mildly, pretty fucked up right there." I have a friend who went through stomach reduction surgery a couple of years ago. She was not "eating herself to death." She was not "disgusting." She had just gotten out of a 10 year relationship with a man who loved her "in spite of her weight" and who was "embarrassed to be seen with her in public." My friend mutilated herself because she was sick and tired of people belittling her because she was not a size 6, and she truly believed all of the mean comments she heard. Finally -- and I am totally not bashing you, js, I think you asked an honest question -- the fact is that everyone has a different definition of "healthy and unhealthy obese." I've had doctors tell me that I should weigh 110, and anything over that is unhealthy and ugly (I'm 5 foot 6). I've been mooed at in public. I'm a big girl. I'll always be a big girl. I'm also a healthy girl. I walk a mile to school every day, hit the gym and do yoga. Despite that, people look at me and make snap judgements. Then, they feel they have the right to offer those judgements to me, loudly, in public. Why is it ok to do that today? Why are people allowed to be "offended" by other people's body size/shape? That just strikes me as weird.
• I like big girls... honestly, I really do...
• Path, Christophine and Beeswacky??? WTF??? Please don't leave, people! This is too much. Monkeys should take a little more care before hitting that "post new comment" button. Read what you're saying through someone else's eyes. Damn. When did Bees leave? I can't find reference to it anywhere. Help!
• i'm with Koko--just checked all the recent comments and today's posts for signs of bees. as for path and Christophine--please don't leave us. we need your voices here, to call us out when we get naughty and to laugh when we get it right. that also goes for any others who dropped out silently... we're all monkeys on this bus.
• Bees said goodbye on Tracy's blog.
• I'm going, too. Good-bye, guys. Posted by bees at February 16, 2005 08:33 PM but why? bees isn't returning any emails, nor is nostril. *sigh*
• My ex had Cushing's disease, and was constantly having to fend off remarks like "You're pregnant! When are you expecting?" as a result of her weight. (She eventually started saying "I'm not pregnant, I just have a brain tumor" which would shut people up). It was such a huge frustration for her. She's losing weight now as a result of major neurosurgery last September (I saw her last weekend and there's a noticeable change), but she's never going to be small. She's good looking and brilliant, but is constantly made to feel like shit because of her appearance. She has self-esteem issues over her weight... all the more so since she has no control over it. And that's kind of the point. There are a shitload of people out there for whom there is no getting around obesity. J.'s eating habits were impeccable (no sugar, no caffeine, small meals), and it just didn't matter. And that's probably the case for a lot of folks who are overweight. I'm not pissed enough to take a timeout from MoFi... but I'd just like to say that self-righteousness sucks (and the irony that I too am being self-righteous right now is not lost on me, so keep the snarky responses to yourselves, thanks). An additional and possibly more important point: There are real people staring at monitors reading this stuff. If people spent less time criticizing each other for hypersensitivity, and more time actually considering how other people will take their comments, the world would be a far, far better place.
• Meredethia- I realize that there is a large portion of America that has to have weight-reduction surgury (including stomach reduction/stapling.etc.) due to legitimate (blameless) issues like body chemistry. But I don't see anything wrong with saying that they're unhealthy (teleologic; they are unhealthy because they have to have surgery to correct the problem, otherwise they would have severe complications). For people who don't have other options, then I encourage them to get surgery. But I do think that it's fucked up that people who have other options have these surgeries, and that people who eat unhealthily see these surgeries as a way of abdicating their responsibility. I can simultaneously agree that the way the media portrays body image is fucked up while at the same time agreeing that there are a lot of fat people out there who would be happier, healthier and easier to be around if they would eat right and exercize. Am I wrong in believing in a moderate ideal? I dunno. I think, for your friend, the situation was fucked up, but I wouldn't blame her- I'd blame the man she was in a relationship with. As far as being 110 at 5'6", well, my girlfriend is probably about 5'6" to 5'8" (I dunno. Shorter than me by about a head) and weighs about 140 or so, and she looks about perfect. She's lost about 20 pounds since I've known her, and she's healthier for it. I enjoy her increase in activity, her decrease in general depressive spurts, and that her hair and skin are both better now. I know that if I don't exercize more often and lose about 20 pounds, I've got a pretty good risk of diabetes, and having this gut plays hell with my back. I think fat people have to deal with a lot of shit in this society, but I also think that they can get to the point of oversensitivity pretty quickly. But maybe that's just me enjoying my privelege...
• There are real people staring at monitors reading this stuff. If people spent less time criticizing each other for hypersensitivity, and more time actually considering how other people will take their comments, the world would be a far, far better place. True. But there's always the risk of not saying what you'd really like to say, or refraining from saying anything at all because you are trying to anticipate the reactions of many, many people from a huge spectrum of humanity. How do we maintain both our compassion and our freedom of expression? Do we look at a comment as a reflection of the particular poster, or as a reflection of the poster at that moment, or a general reflection of Monkeyfilter, or a general reflection of Monkeyfilter at that moment? All of us fuck up. We run off at the fingers, so to speak. We say foolish things, hurtful things. We are mis-interpreted, confusing, righteous and mis-informed. We are also understanding, intuitive, naked and sometimes stretched paper-thin by things happening off-screen. All of us feel we have something to say that encompasses all of these things. How do we work this?
• Hear hear. Being a faceless "username" should not free one from personal responsibility. You should never say online what you wouldn't say to someone's face. /end sermon
• Nuke the site from orbit?
• You should never say online what you wouldn't say to someone's face. But usually we know the person we are face to face with, and so know which things are appropriate or not appropriate. We don't have that luxury here.
• It's a good question, mj ... problem is, I don't think there's a good answer. Even the most well-intentioned comment will be misinterpreted, or someone will miss the irony, or whatever. I've frequently second-guessed my own comments, after they've been met by silence, wondering if I've hurt someone's feelings but having no way of finding out. It's like feeling your way around in the dark, sometimes.
• Koko has it. And dng is a close runner-up. It's the only way to be sure.
• It's a pretty standard statement on the internet that you need to be thick-skinned. But when you've been a member for umpteen months, have shared things about yourself with other members and swapped email, photos, music, or whatever, you undoubtedly let your guard down. And it becomes more of a let-down than it might normally be when something like this happens; maybe you take it more personally than you would elsewhere because these people are supposed to know you and know better - or so you hope. (At the same time, it never hurts to bear in mind that people can't see you or read your mind, and what someone says in innocence may sound worse to you than it is. Speaking in general.)
• I've got triggers listed on my profile. Things that I'm likely to have much to say about, things which, maybe are too close to home for me to be as careful about what I say as a thread heats up and I'm typing like a demon. It would be good, I think to be able to check somebody's profile, see something is a trigger for them, and maybe be able to understand a bit better why they are going off.
• There goes my topic about mentally ill feminists forcing kittens into suicide...
• That'll get my Kirk on, sure as shit. Do you get that Star Trek battle music in your head, too?
• Do you get that Star Trek battle music in your head, too? Totally, that and the smell of napalm in the morning. dng, touch my suicidal mentally ill feminists kittens and you done busted open a tractor trailer of whup ass and frothing leaping about...
• dng: forcing kittens into prostitution, then suicide. that's the best comment I can make... I'm boggled. I want things to be nice for everyone, I understand the communication barriers, and it pains me that two folks have left as a result of this thread (and one them in tears). moneyjane has a great idea there with posting trigers in the profile. personally, I tend to avoid things that I know will set me off (unless I look and see 162 new comments and finally curiosity prevails). I'm wondering if a revision of the FAQ/Guidelines is in order. I know we've talked about how this is no longer a mefi clone--maybe it's time to change some other stuff too. or am I just being a rules nanny? is there some sort of nasty zeitgeist thing happening here where we're all frazzled?
• Hope you're not worried or discouraged by the unexpected way this thread developed, incidentally, six.oh.six.
• it's all six.oh.six's fault!!! oh, wait, i mean, what pleg said.
• There's a connection though, in a larger sense, to the pro-ana sites; when does proclaiming what I think and feel become less about me than about you? Who are we to question anyone and anything? And how can we not?
• ...when does proclaiming what I think and feel become less about me than about you? Wow, that such a good question.
• It somewhat disturbed me how quickly this thread devolved into a diatribe about weight and obesity, when some members of Project Shapeshift themselves said that weight wasn't the entire issue. As a recovered bulemic myself, I can attest that there can be underlying factors such as anger, shame, and loss of control that manifest themselves in eating disorders. Having a safe and anonymous place on the internet to seek support or even help might be a good thing. Too bad people were so quick to play the weight card. And I was sorry to see how defensive some monkeys felt they had to be about their own bodies.
• You know, I was going to make a post telling those that left they would be missed, and would they please come back. But then I realized, that the entire character of this place has changed, for the worse. The regulars have started to use the place as thier own private chat room, and the overall intellectual level has dropped. I'm not exactly a regular, so my leaving won't change the site. But thanks to those that gave me some help along the way, perhaps I'll come back in a few months.
• Ick. What happened here? humandictionary, your leaving will change the site. I hope you'll reconsider. I hope everyone will.
• I agree that things are contentious lately. I thought the interesting issue revolved around a sickening contention I often heard during recovery: that people with eating disorders were committing violence against their own bodies. That idea seems to have been extended to people who weigh more than the "Ideal" person. I encourage all those who left to stick with me, because I'm staying on for the ride.
• The worst time to leave a relationship is when it gets rocky. If you stay, you can learn something and teach something and maybe make it better...or something.
• You're right, hikikomori ... I'm staying. Compared to my marriage, this place is like Disneyland! ;-)
• The point of Monkeyfilter: The point is to hang out and have fun. [...] Note the absence of words like "intellectual" and "intelligent" in the entire paragraph. I don't know what others expected when they signed up for Monkeyfilter, where members call themselves monkeys and commend posts with banana. I expected laid-back fun and no more. Intellectual exchanges *happen* here and there; they're the occasional byproducts, not the purpose. Who seriously expects intellect on the Internet anyway?
• ...what? I came back when I heard that people were leaving, but I'm not sure exactly which comments set it off. If I had any hand in it, I'm sorry. It would be the height of stupid irony if I looked like a blaming fat-basher, and I didn't mean to. Ran off at the mouth as usual. I'll try to stop that. So I'm sorry. And if this looks like one of those passive-aggressive non-apologies, I'm sorry too, and that's not what it's supposed to be. ...sorry about apologizing too much.
• There's nothing at all wrong with wanting more intellectual content and discussion on MoFi. But if you think there's not enough, go find some and post it. Leaving won't fix it. If you're a member, you're a part of this community, which means you have a say in shaping both its tone and content.
• Well, shit. You know that scene in "The Blues Brothers" where Matt "Guitar" Murphy walks out of the diner and Aretha Franklin is just standing there and she says "Shit." That.
• I'm late to the party as usual. First, I'll give my street cred: I too am a big gal. Then, I'll give my opinion if anyone still cares: I find it interesting that a lot of the posts by people who said they accepted themselves were concerned with excuses about why it's ok that they're fat (they don't eat fast food, they exercise etc). Or by non-fat people about why it's ok to be fat if you live a healthy lifestyle (I think the term someone used was "blameless"). Somehow these judgements don't apply to thin people ... if they eat like crap and don't exercise at least they don't LOOK like crap, right? That's what annoys me. I mean at least be consistent! I eat what's convienant, I exercise sporatically, and I'm fat. I must be a TERRIBLE PERSON!! If only I were thin so I could eat what was convienant and exercise sporadically without having the entire damn world crawling up my ass for being a deficient person. Fat-bashing sucks. It's uncompassionate, rude, and quite frankly conceited. On the other hand, when I heard about the "walk out" I was expecting something much, much, much worse than what I saw here. For the most part I was proud of my fellow monkeys for their attitudes in this thread. There were some who were Major Assholes (you know who you are), but they tend to be dicks in a lot of different contexts so it's best to just blow them off. I think the "walk out" is self-serving, dramatic, and silly. On the other hand, I have my own personal threshold of what I can take (I left a community that I loved because someone there used site resources to build a website making fun of rape vicitms and no one said boo), but I didn't announce it, I just e-mailed a few people and left. To sum: Fat bashing = childish and short-sighted; leaving in a dramatic huff = childish and short-sighted;. Now back to the books for me.
• when I heard about the "walk out" I was expecting something much, much, much worse than what I saw here what kimberly said. maybe it was a cumulative thing... who knows. feelings were hurt. that sucks. i hope they all come home someday.
• Hi Kimberly!
• I left a community that I loved because someone there used site resources to build a website making fun of rape vicitms and no one said boo One good thing can be said about MoFi; if that happened here, the offender would be summarily flayed.
• Hi quid!
• That's an interesting way to look at it, Kimberly; I never thought of it that way. (Paragraph 2, I mean.) ...it's best to blow me off, as you said, but for what it's worth, thanks for that interesting thought.
• Gah. I hate it when people get upset and leave.
• Don't worry, Wurwilf, you were only a Minor Asshole. ;) Damn you Monkeyfilter. This is why I don't come here much. I don't get my homework done when I'm here.
• *waves to Kimberly* Being a student is great; you get so much websurfing done.
• I *joined* mofi over a year ago, never really got involved much... Of course there were always interesting little tidbits to keep my mind occupied during brief moments boredom, but nothing that really sparked a sense of community to me. Eventually I drifted away (mostly due to becoming a new parent!), but recently *re-discovered* mofi. Tell you what, although there are many new members and the feeling of this community may be changing, it's posts such as this that make it a healthy and informative community. The *real* outcome of six.oh.six's post?? Well, I can only hope that my first fpp get's as much attention and dialogue going! Sad to see some monkeys *fling* excessively, but even more sad to see some leave... I completely agree with Hikikomori, there two sides to *everything* and I would rather see monkeys learn than monkeys burn
• Heh. In my case being a student means practically NO time for surfing.
• Hi, Kimberly! I agree with you that my post seemed to say "I'm fat, but it's not my fault -- don't take it out on me!" I thought about it a while after I posted, and you're right to call me out on it. Bleh. My insecurities coming out. I've worked really really hard to love my body (it works! it's beautiful! it's a gift to have it!), but jerky comments still get to me some times.
• I'm sure that everyone has had the feeling of having their toes trod upon here. It's inevitable giving the odd combination of familiarity and anonymity in a web community. If someone's threshold of tolerance is crossed by generic comments that are taken personally, then there really isn't much that can be done. I'm more amazed that some folks hang in here regardless of truly personal attacks. We are growing and changing and need time to forge proper relationships during this time. Putting yourself on the pity-pot and slamming the door won't solve any problems and we can not help with problems we are unaware of. Learn and grow. Communities are strange and wonderful things. It's a shame when people take from them what wasn't ever there, rather than give and receive in return. We are only as strong as our weakest link. / did I really say that?
• dxlifer: you did say that! I send bananas to you.
• Well, I wasn't trying to be a dick. (If any of this was because of my comment, hell... I'm sorry, for what it's worth.) I was going to add a follow-up post but had to drop things and run off to class - a bit about how much I respect people who lose weight sans surgery. I think js nailed my sentiments better than I actually stated them: But I do think that it's fucked up that people who have other options have these surgeries, and that people who eat unhealthily see these surgeries as a way of abdicating their responsibility. I dislike that we as a society are pushing radical surgeries as a solution, rather than asking ourselves how we can find a way to fix the problem, rather than the symptoms. The problem (as I see it) is that we deify the teenage body, the skinny supermodels, and all else is treated like trash. There are no overweight people on TV unless they are funny, because TV tells us that you must be a rail-thin waif to be pretty. We then dump on the public a massive amount of fat and sugar, and then sit back to collect the cash as the overworked overfed masses come trooping in to pay for gym memberships, fad diet pills, and silly contraptions that don't do anybody any good. We find insane unhealthy diets, like eating nothing but meat, because it shows a short-term loss in weight (at the expense of colon cancer in a few years) with no effort. Pills, because they are effortless. Surgery, because it seems like a simple solution. These are band-aids. They don't fix the underlying problem. The fact is that in the US the food that is cheapest is the worst for you. Recent studies have shown that up to 25% of the calories given to preschoolers is sugar, and the percentages are higher as income goes lower. I wasn't trying to blame the people here, but am very angry at the system we're all stuck in. I'm sure that having stomach stapling surgery has helped some people, but in a global context (and this Filter is global, mind you) I can't imagine how I would explain this sort of surgery to a person who has spent the better part of his or her life just trying to find enough food to survive. That is the part that disgusts me. The fact that we have such a disparity in the world. We have children with Type II diabetes in the industrialized nations, and children lucky to eat once a day in parts of the third world. That is fucked up, and that needs to change. If people didn't take the original statement the way I intended, that's my fault for not taking the time to make myself clear in the first place (see my bio where I say "slight tendency to insert foot into mouth", folks. It's been there since I first signed up.) Anyone who actually knows me outside of the Internets would realize pretty quickly that I mean no harm, and am generally a very nice, understanding and sensitive person. I try to be that way online as well. Perhaps I need to try harder.
• The problem (as I see it) is that we deify the teenage body, the skinny supermodels, and all else is treated like trash. ...you mean like calling them "overfed, overworked masses," saying that they disgust you, and suggesting that they're mindless drones of the corporate machine rather than individuals with free will? That kind of treating them like trash? Just checking. My bigger point is that charged words like that, while illustrative and to the point, do refer to real people. You're referring to me, for instance, right there, when you say that I disgust you. I'm one of Those People. Working to be one of you, the ones who have names and are worthy of respect, but not there yet. I'm not really offended - I hear worse every day - but I can understand how people might be put off by it. You are talking about real people. There is no faceless, countless mass of "them, out there, those people." They all have names. Some of them are here. And if you slander them, well, sometimes they're going to get upset. I'd rather they shrugged it off. We're all used to it by now. Ideally, no one would let others sway their feelings so badly. But I think that's what happens. Counter-theory to the you're-all-mindless-drones-brainwashed-by-McDonalds bit: I think it's a vicious cycle. Excuse the cliche. Bad habits form, that's one problem. Support networks evaporate, that's another problem. Society has no respect for you and does not support your efforts in fixing yourself the slow way. Another problem. These compound the difficulty of getting out of those bad habits. And besides, people - all people, even you nice respected skinny people with free will and innate worth - have a tendency to take shortcuts. I daresay evolution is at work there, with the goal of conserving energy. I don't think it's fair to demonize the disgusting fatties as though they're the only ones who indulge in convenience. Do you walk to work every day? Yeah, didn't think so.
• No, not the people, Wurwilf. I'm in no way trying to blame the people. People can't easily fight the millions of years of evolution that tell our bodies to store fat while we can. Heck, if the world goes to hell tomorrow and we're all fighting for survival, the people with extra pounds are going to do better - that's why those genes are still around. Add corporate greed on top of genetics and you get people who are overweight. What makes me really mad are the companies that package "healthy" food that isn't healthy. Low-carb stuff, if you read the label, almost always has twice the fat to make up for the lack of sugar. That sucks. People who consciously try to make healthy decisions are being misinformed by a guy trying to make a buck. I saw a six-pack of "kids" soda the other day - little 250 ml kid sized bottles, marketed to parents who worry that their kids will get too much sugar from the 20 oz bottles everything comes in these days. I checked the label - more sugar and more calories in that 250ml than in the larger bottles the parents were avoiding. Try to be a responsible parent, you end up putting your kid on a sugar buzz. Fruit drinks, juices, same thing: you see 100% juice, and forget to read the back to find out that there's a really big pile of sugar underneath that. Kid's cereal. Chocolate frosted sugar bombs used to be a joke. Now it's probably a real cereal. You can buy stuff that is healthier but you'll pay more for it and it doesn't go on sale as often. I'm one of Those People too, you see. A member of the masses. I have to look long and hard to find food that fits my genetics. I spend a lot of time reading labels before I buy things. I spend more than I should on groceries, because I know that the healthy foods cost more - companies can't afford to use spoiled apples in applesauce if they can't add sugar to mask the flavor, and so on. I try to get organic veggies because they haven't usually been coated in food-grade wax or oiled to make them look more appealing. I try to remember that red boxes make food more likely to end up in the cart - psychology at work - so I try to look at what's inside the box rather than just the packaging. I try to compare not just calories per serving but also what they consider to be a serving, vs. how much I would actually eat. It's a lot of damn work. It shouldn't have to be. At the very least, government regulations should be strict enough that school lunches should really be healthy, people on government assistance shouldn't be restricted to full-fat milk (food stamps won't buy skim, won't even give people a choice any more) sugar levels should be dropped, corn syrup should be damn near outlawed, and so on.
• (continuing...) Where I live, we are all overfed, overworked masses. People in the US have fewer vacation days than Europe. We work multiple jobs just to get by. Hunter-gatherer societies have more free time than us and all of our conveniences. Overworked. Serving sizes in restaurants have tripled since 1950, and fat or sugar is only as far away as the nearest convenience store or vending machine. Soda has gone from the 12 oz can and 16 oz bottle to the 20 oz and half-liter in the last 20 years, and the sugar (meaning primarily corn syrup) content in those drinks and most foods has gone up. Overfed. Compounded because we don't have to work harder to get fed more... there are always cheap calories around, and as the manufacturing base shrinks and the service sector grows the average job here doesn't require a lot of physical activity. I never said fat people were disgusting. The packaging thing... that goes for people as well. The TV doesn't want to admit that a person can be healthy and not be thin. Only recently have I seen ads letting us know that thin doesn't always mean healthy - corporate greed doing some good there I think, once they realized that thinner people might be potential customers for lipitor after all. And no, I don't walk to work every day. I do ride my bike as often as I can once the snow is gone, and I try to make up for my sedentary office life by going to a gym several times a week. But I do take shortcuts. I find fat that doesn't get digested. I find sugar that won't be coverted into calories. I can't get my genes to decide that fat is bad, it will always taste good because fat in nature is scarce and is worth saving. I'm not demonizing anybody here, except for the companies that take our genetics and use it against us to sell us more fat and more sugar in pretty packages.
• Let's face it, nearly everyone is less than satisfied with their own body-image. If the subject is too sensitive for some, there's nothing we can do about it without declaring the subject off-limits, which is hardly feasible. A subject was introduced and bandied around that was taken personally by some. Perhaps I should start a FPP on facial wrinkles and the effects of gravity on skin and body parts. I shall then take it to heart when people do the ageism thing. But I'd have to fake it as I really don't care. I have several facial scars that I earned honestly and only regret that they echo the wrinkles. Now, does anyone else have a personal issue that needs to be aired and cleared so we can go on with life? We've touched on mental illness and other things, without bringing shame and guilt into the equation. Does MonkeyFilter necessarily equate beauty and wit with it's members? Bare your frailities for scorn and grow in the process.
• Hunter-gatherer societies have more free time than us and all of our conveniences. This is the most fascinating aspect of the issue to me, the elements built directly into the culture that promote bad health of any kind, whether it be obesity or repetitive stress disorders or whatever. Frogsy mentioned studies of hunter-gatherers compared to modern-day living -- there was another I read years ago which compared the amount of work done by the average homemaker in 1950 compared to recent years. With all of our "timesaving" appliances, that work has increased dramatically over the last half-century. I'd like to make a plea for the benefit of the doubt here as well. I don't know frogs personally, but I've never seen him be trollish or belittling, and he appears to be trying to have an honest discussion about public health issues, not ridicule or condescend to overweight people.
• I'm clear now, clf, sorry about my outburst. Does MonkeyFilter necessarily equate beauty and wit with it's members? Yes. Seen the pic thread lately? Mofi defines itself by having more hot-and-smart chicks than Mefi. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's a major part of the community. Anyway, discussions happen, dx. There's funny stuff upthread if you want that instead.
• Didn't take it personally, Wurwilf... Unfortunately I think the people who did take this thread personally aren't here to read the apologies, explanations, et cetera. Too bad, really. I didn't want to be That Guy, the one who makes people walk out in disgust... I'm sincerely hoping it wasn't what I said upthread that was the final straw for our departed monkeys.
• Fat is only ugly until you put a nipple on it.
• earwax wins!
• How do I put a nipple on my butt? Tattoo? I haven't tuned into those pictures lately. I thought they were all spoofs. / better go check this out.
• I'm tired of being thought of as a problem. Even when you guys are trying to be well meaning, you still end up sounding vaguely condescending. For every study you give me on how fat is a problem, I can give you one on how dieting is more unhealthy than being fat. I can show you articles about skewed the current round of "fat is evil" statistics are skewed. Did you hear the one about how according to the gov't's weight standards Brad Pitt is overweight? I love that one. I'm not quite sure what's in the air that has prompted people to demonize fat so much these days, but every one of you out there who think that current standards for what's healthy or not healthy are true have sponged in unreasonable hysteria. It's the same kind of hysteria that causes people to get plastic surgery. It's the same kind of hysteria that causes girls to starve themselves on purpose. It's the same kind of hysteria that will prompt an otherwise reasonable person to give complete strangers dieting advice as it if it were any of their business. The conception of what's beautiful and what's healthy is really scary these days folks. None of that really matters though. If I die tomorrow, it's not your problem. I am not a problem. People who are fat are not your problem. I'm sure I'm not alone in asking that guys stop referring to us as one.
• Obviously I went "skewed" crazy.
• I think most people were actually arguing against these manufactured ideas of healthy. Bad diets are probably as much problem as bad food is.
• "Even when you guys are trying to be well meaning, you still end up sounding vaguely condescending." You know what? Referring to us as "trying to be well-meaning" is pretty condescending when I truly believe many of us are doing our damn best to understand obesity in our society. CLF gave a lengthy well-researched response to the concerns raised. I'm a prostitute. Society is not so hot on us either. And yes, I know that I chose to go into it so it's not the same as something you may be able to do nothing about, and yet are scorned for. However. I know people don't understand it. When possible, I try and explain aspects of it that people don't get, but if they still don't get it but are trying, that's ok. Why? Because I'm not that fucking special. It's not other people's job to understand me. That's another societal myth. And I wonder why CLF's post was the most informative of all in this thread. Why was that not posted by those who want us to understand the issue better? Give people who are doing their best a goddamn break.
• Let me clarify, as that came out sounding a bit harsh. I don't mean to pick on Kimberly specifically, or even this issue specifically, but to what I see as an expectation that people who do not have the same life experience as a particular individual, or are not into the same subcultures should understand by osmosis or they're automatically a dick. People do try. If there's an issue that people have not a lot of real information about, FPP about it. Let us know what you know.
• Wow. I hope you feel better after that, moneyjane. The problem is I'm not asking anyone to understand me or fat people in general. I don't particularly care if they do. It's not like people have to go around understanding thin people. That's my point. Fat is not a problem to be understood. I am what I am. I live my life the way I live my life. My body and my health and my "issues" are my problem, not anyone else's. You can't extrapolate anything about all fat people from me or what I say just like you can't extrapolate anything about me from what other fat people say. We're all individuals. We may have common experiences, but we're not the same. So you can take your understanding and focus it on someone else.
• The blaming of television and corporate greed is a cop-out. The television industry and the food industry are demand-driven, like most other industries. TV shows feature skinny, beautiful people because that's what the viewing audience demands. Shows with skinny, beautiful actors get higher ratings than shows featuring normal, average actors, so the latter get dropped by advertisers and disappear. The viewers decide what ultimately ends up on TV. Same goes for the food industry. The main reason unhealthy food is cheaper than healthy food is because it's vastly more popular, and benefits from economies of scale. Healthy food is made in smaller batches because it's sold to only a small niche market. Again, the consumers have told the producers what they want, and the producer has complied.
• There were no automatic dicks in this thread. As I said before, I was mostly proud of the posts in this thread.
• I think rocket88 has an interesting point, although I would say "oversimplification" instead of cop-out. We all make choices when we put food into our mouths. I don't know anyone who doesn't actually know that processed foods are not healthy, fat or thin. So as rocket88 said, blaming corporate greed probably isn't the most productive way to look at the issue. On the other hand, what frogs said about availability is also a valid point. An ironic twist is that processed foods actually cost more in poor neighborhoods because the poor are less likely to have the time or knowledge to prepare unprocessed meals (I worked for an organization that taught nutrition to the poor so I have some frame of reference to make that statement). Also, the entertainment industry does run based on demand, but I don't think that makes an analysis of *why* that demand is there moot. I think it's also an oversimplification to say that the media doesn't have some culpability in propegating the hysteria I was talking about earlier. Speaking of economics, here's an interesting point I encountered a while back. It would be business suicide for hawkers of diets and dietary products if their products actually worked. If you lose the weight, you don't have to pay for the product anymore.
• ... demonizing fat is a multi-billion dollar industry.
• rocket88, not exactly true. First off, how many shows are there with normal, average actors? Casting directors, agents and all the other people behind the scenes work to ensure only people who fit their definition of beauty even get a foot through the door. Not the consumer. We as consumers can only see the finished product. There is no say at all in the process of the production, and who gets picked to act in the shows. Food: It's a fact that highly processed food has a higher profit margin than raw food. Much higher. Raw food has alot of wastage - stuff that doesn't look so good, stuff that spoils in transport, stuff that spoils in the stores. Processed food is packaged so there's almost no spoilage at any of these points. Just that alone makes processed food more attractive to produce and sell. Companies that make butter and butter-like products get milk that's already gone bad, process that, throw in colouring and flavourings and voila! cartons of the stuff that stays "fresh" for months or even a year. So it's not entirely a cop-out. Feedback is a two-way street; consumers can tell producers what they want, but producers also use various methods to seduce, persuade or even guilt-trip consumers into wanting the products they produce. Buy this, and you're a good mother. Buy this, because the packaging looks so much fresher and better than the others. Buy this and you'll be successful and people will like you. Pish-tosh all you like about marketing and advertising, but alot of it works.
• I get that kimberly, and in Perfectland, that would be the end of it. But, as you know, that's not how it plays out in reality. People wanting to understand those around them is hard-wired, probably as a defense mechanism, and at its base, hardly altruistic or patronizing. Why is that person different from me? What does it mean? Does it mean they're a threat to me? It explains a shitload of human behaviour. And it's irritating as shit, to be sure, regarding something as trivial and subjective as body type. One of the few ways to over-ride that is with information. It doesn't make the primordial distrust go away, (in my opinion, nothing does), but gives us an intellectual framework with which to fake it. I honestly think it's the best all of us can do.
• moneyjane, I guess my point is that I wish people would really think about what they were saying as they were trying to understand. I haven't talked to many people who really get the idea that talking about fat as a problem is a strange thing to do. On one hand, fat is certainly a problem for me. I have an entire society of people telling me I'm deficient because I'm fat. I have people who may not even think I'm deficient because of what I look like who still talk about my body (whether in generalizations or not) as a problem. I have overweight friends who have felt like crap their entire lives because people think their body is a problem--not just a personal problem but a societial problem. There are such overwhelming, pervasive, and negative connotations about being fat that until we start watching the vocabulary of the issue--until we start challenging the base assumptions and rhetoric, there's never going to be understanding.
• Alnedra, those casting directors, agents, and producers have only one motivation: make a hit show. They have no vested interest in pushing any particular beauty standard on their audience. And people *do* give feedback before a show is aired. Test audiences watch pilot screenings and tell producers which characters they liked. If an actor gets a negative rading, they are replaced with one the viewers respond more favourably to. BTW, I've seen lots of shows with 'normal' looking people. They're mostly British or Canadian productions that don't play well to American audiences (outside of small cult-like followings) Obviously there is a general beauty standard that favours thinness, but I don't think it's been forced upon us from outside sources. We, as a society, are at least as much to blame as the "marketers".
• I agree, and I think it sucks. For societal, economic, and political reasons, there are always targets of convenience, and at this particular point in history, in this society, it's decided at the bathroom scale.
• That was in response to kimberly.
• those casting directors, agents, and producers have only one motivation: make a hit show. They have no vested interest in pushing any particular beauty standard on their audience. Nevertheless the standards are created, regardless of intent. May 20, 1999 Exposure to television significantly increases eating disorders in adolescent girls, according to a new study. Researchers looked at the impact of the recent introduction of Western television among teenage girls in Fiji. They found that Western media imagery appears to have had a profoundly negative impact on body image and eating disorder behaviour among the girls. The researchers interviewed and tested two sets of Fijian schoolgirls within a few weeks of the introduction of TV to the area of Nadroga in 1995. Three years later the percentage of girls who said they self-induced vomiting to control weight had risen from zero to 11.3%. The study is published in the British Journal of Psychiatry and was led by Dr Anne Becker, of Harvard Medical School. It found subjects living in a house with a TV set were three times more likely to show symptoms of eating disorders. The Fijian culture traditionally encourages good appetites and larger body shapes. But by 1998 dieting had become common among the studied group with 69% stating they had dieted to lose weight at some time and 74% reporting they felt "too big or fat" on occasion. The authors state that "the impact of television appears especially profound, given the longstanding cultural traditions that previously had appeared protective against dieting, purging and body dissatisfaction in Fiji". more here
• I agree the standards are there. I'm just saying it has more to do with what people want to watch than what producers want to push. It's similar to the fashion magazine situation. Many blame magazine publishers for pushing a thin body image, but if Cosmopolitan unilateraly stopped puting skinny models on the cover and replaced them with more 'average' women, the only result would be a massive shift in readership away from Cosmo and toward Vogue and Elle.
• In Escortlandia, we are divided into numerous categories on the review and rating sites, but there are three basic designations; spinners, athletic or height/weight proportional, and BBW. We all compete with each other cross-category and same-category, and it somehow works out. I'm in the athletic category which means I appeal to the broadest spectrum, but also have the most competition same-category. We have our faces and bodies rated world-wide on internet escort review sites, like people review movies. In some ways, it's the harshest place to function with decent self-esteem, but in other ways it's an amazing boost, because the market-place is almost exclusively male. They judge us individually rather than generally as the larger marketplace does. And they think we're all sexy and beautiful even when Cosmopolitan and other women don't. Don't really know where I'm going with this, other that individuals do break free of the larger society even in such a charged and competitive atmosphere as escorting, and it makes me think we're trying.
• Some years back, a few of my friends went into modelling and fashion design. They told me that designers like thin stick-women, because it was much much easier to tailor the clothes to look good on the catwalk. If a model had curves, especially in the bust and butt, it was more difficult to cut the clothes to look good, than if the model was flat in both places. That's a problem right there; the designers picked models because they were convenient; people think the models were picked because they were beautiful. Of course there are exceptions, but not very many. As for vested interests, well. Michelle Pfeiffer's husband, for one, seems to cast excessively thin women in his shows. These people may not consciously say, "Oh, only thin women are beautiful." but they will likely be more inclined to cast thinner women than plumper ones. However, I do agree with you that "We, as a society, are at least as much to blame as the "marketers"." Yes. But don't underestimate the power of media and marketing, that's what I'm saying. On a slight tangent, there are mentions of "fat elf" in the LOtR movies, namely Haldir of Lorien. Although his face looked a bit rounder in TTT (partly due to the cloak around his neck, I think), I'd hardly call him "fat". But still, people obviously think so. The concept that "thin=beautiful, fat=ugly" is so pervasive in society, I wonder if we'll ever be able to return to those halcyon days of when rotound women with curvy hips and busts were considered the epitome of beauty.
• There is a very strong 'natural' movement in escorting; essentially you're thought by the majority of men to be off your rocker if you get implants, and also that it's a bad business decision. Unlike the visual businesses of stripping and porn, our clients get to touch, and the vast majority don't like the feel of implants. Many also feel they just look strange on a thin woman who's literally dieted her ass off. You'll see many, many threads where women absolutely convinced that all those magazines are right are having to be talked out of implants by the clients who are actually paying them a lot of money to look just as they are.
• And they say prostitution objectifies women. *shake head* If only "respectable" society were so honest about concepts of beauty.
• If only "respectable" society were so honest about concepts of beauty. Exactly. It's astonishing really. I want to run around with my 40-year-old short legs, "big" thighs and bumpy too-long nose screaming, "For the love of God, I get $250 an hour just as I am, from well-educated, successful Mr. Rights and loads of tips! Burn your magazines!" Seriously. I really do. It makes me crazy.
• Amen.
• After reading this thread, I'm trying the moneyjane approach to things-- that is, do my best to understand some of the viewpoints as best I can and discard my thoughtless first thoughts-- but I can't shake one problem I have here. It's the 'my weight is my issue, not society's, and they have no right to comment' view that I'm seeing. I agree that Joe and Jolene Average indeed have no right, but regardless of our aesthetic reaction to heavier individuals (prejudiced and horrid, granted), the greater bulk of medical data shows that extra weight is the cause of a great deal of medical costs-- costs that are ultimately shared across the population. And we're not talking solely about bariatric surgery being approved for coverage, but the expensive and avoidable problems with diabetes, heart disease, etc. And, with this in mind, society seems to be making changes. 1: employers may soon require us to forgo smoking and lose weight... and, as Weyco has shown us, they may well be protected in that activity. 2: consider Health Savings Accounts (HSA)s. People can now opt out of traditional health coverage, and instead opt for a cheaper premium plan that allows them to save and KEEP money if they are in good shape and/or need little health care coverage. Think about that long term-- five to ten years from now, when these plans are as ubiquitous as the 401(k), those individuals with significant health problems (who may or may not be overweight) will be facing astronomical premiums as all the healthy folks opt out. Yikes. I'd be more concerned about these things than the idiot levity.
• re: TV shows, i recently read that on "the sopranos," an american cable evening soap, producers actually wanted the men and women to be chubbier than the norm that's seen on TV because the show is about a bunch of italians that eat LOTS AND LOTS of italian food and they wouldn't necessarily be thin. talk about reality TV. >>people think their body is a problem--not just a personal problem but a societial problem i guess it is a societal problem in the same way smoking is -- it costs employers, insurance companies, etc., in many related health costs (i.e., if you are overweight you're more prone to diabetes, heart disease, etc., just like if you're a smoker you're more likely to have respiratory ailments) it seems to me that the most intense threads -- the ones that cost us members, unfortunately -- often turn out to be the most fascinating. thanks for sharing yourselves with us, kimberly and moneyjane.
• One of the most dangerous things people do is drive.
• i second the thanks to kimberly and moneyjane, btw.
• As I mentioned before there are numerous studies that show data about how the health data of overweight individuals are skewed. I'm heading out the door right now, but I'll hunt up some links for you later. The jist is that the numbers they're using (for example, for total deaths they included overweight people who died from car crashes, they didn't include a data comparison that showed that many of the deaths that were repored due to obesity were occuring with the same frequency in non-obese people, etc.) are taken out of context and misinterpretted. Not to mention that there is increasing evidence that losing weight was more harmful to a person's health than actually being overweight. Like I said, I'll follow up later with some links.
• it seems to me that the most intense threads -- the ones that cost us members, unfortunately -- often turn out to be the most fascinating. I agree. Figuring this stuff out is really hard, and people get hurt left right and sideways. But later, if you've become better-informed and more tolerant in any way that's what you take out into the world, not who said what. The internet isn't real. But we are, and as individuals each make up a tiny part of the dominant culture. Our daily interactions with our friends and co-workers and families is what drives change. As a place where these things can be talked about relatively safely, where you don't have the physical mob around you trying to shout down unfamiliar or "dangerous" ideas, the internet may be the best avenue we've ever had for personal reflection and larger social change. I'm going to marry the internet.
• Let the competition for Best Man at THAT ceremony begin!
• I look forward to the links, but as someone surrounded by actuaries and linked to scads of underwriters, I can assure you that for all of the misleading info that goes out to the public (hyped up and ergo messed up), the fact remains that overweight individuals face higher morbitity and earlier mortality simply due to the wear and tear excess weight causes to everything from arteries to joints. (That said, I concur that radical dieting causes more harm that good. I'm not advocating that.) However, as someone who has always had to watch their diet closely, I accept that society is changing-- not in the way it worships the thin to underweight, but in that it is moving to professionally and financially reward individuals who maintain "healthy" weight (meaning costing less, not how one looks). And I've cheered my mom on as she, a nurse, dropped enough weight to bring her blood pressure down to a level that she no longer required medication...
• And mj, please register for small eletronics and stuff so we monkeys can send gifts.
• I've got it! Everyone should be gluten intolerant, like me. No more processed foods for you! Switching to a diet that wasn't killing me helped me be healthy and lose weight. ;) What, why are you looking at me like that? I thought it was brilliant...
• The internet isn't real Fuck!
• The internet's father wants to discuss your prospects first.
• MJ- I believe that's legal in Canada now.
• The Internet insists on an open relationship, though.
• Let's hope that the internet's mother is open-minded as well. But then MJ, you can send queries to that rating site you mentioned. Will this proposed union hamper your activities any? Who is the mother of the net anyway? Damn men seem to get all the credit.
• I'm kind of having second thoughts now, thinking of the many nights I'll be sitting at home at night, alone, with nothing but gin and soul-shattering bitterness as company while Internet is out drinkin' and fightin' with Gaming and Giant Plasma Screen. *sigh*
• He'd still be better than my ex, TV. In response to everything that's happened in this thread, having just browsed MoFi for the first time this week: FUCK.
• I have nothing earth-shattering to say, other than that: A) I am overweight but adorable; B) I have hypertension, and it's probably weight related; C) Personally, I analyze each person individually, rather than as a class of people. Well, by and large. For some reason I'm not particularly attracted to blondes, but I've even had an few exceptions to that; D) I have lost out on dating prospects because of my weight, but oh, well. I'm still good friends with some of those people. I've probably also lost out on dating prospects because of my short stature, but that's a topic for another thread (Have we done the short thing yet); E) I have an exceptionally strong ego, so I am unlikely to be personally offended at generalizations people make related to me; F) There is nooooooo....issue letter F; G) If I ever leave Monkeyfilter, it will be quiet, like the ninja, and I post infrequently enough that I expect it will take quite a while for people to notice, if at all. No, don't cry for me, Monkeyfilter (One day I'll watch that musical to see if I got the context for that quote at all right). So enough about me. In general, it would be great if we could somehow communicate about controversial issues, remain light-hearted, and not offend anyone. On the other hand, I despise PC speech and the need for it, except in extreme cases, and overuse of political correctness would offend me to no end. I don't believe there are any issues that cannot be made fun of in general, because I think humor is a great step on the path to understand. I don't believe that individuals in specific should be the target of humor, unless they can take it or they deserve it. Obviously, my philosophy doesn't work for everyone, and that's a shame, but I know I can't change the world. All I know is that, despite the fact that I'm not perfect, I am quite happy, so at least I have that going for me. Actually, I have some stuff to say about the insurance issues, but I have to do stuff, so if I drop by later, perhaps I'll follow up (though I'd imagine that other monkeys will say what I would but far better).
• clf - good comments. Obesity is both a personal and a social issue. I don't care if someone is overweight - I am, most people in my family are. But clf is exactly right - North Americans are terribly overworked and badly fed. And that is making us, as a society, unhealthy. In the interests of our children, we should seek to change this, so that they can have a world with healthy food, and the time (and energy) to get the excercise they need to stay healthy and happy. And no, when I say healthy, I don't mean thin. I mean healthy - happy, body functioning, feeling healthy, good aerobic health, not getting sick - that is healthy, whether 98 pounds or 298 pounds. And yes, all high fructose corn syryp should be banned from food production. And no, people are not well informed on the content of their food - when was the last time you looked at the nutrional information when getting take out? I have no idea how many calories I consume or what types, and I have been trying to eat better.
• Also: there's a difference between tact and political correctness. I prefer the former.
• I know I can't change the world. All I know is that, despite the fact that I'm not perfect, I am quite happy Well said, Sandspider. If only more people could come to the same resolve. )))'s We simply do not share enough bananas here anymore. I also agree with Mfpb 2 21's sentiments.
• I'm back. I was going to go around and collect all of my links, but I found a pdf that not only says everything, but has an extensive bibliography at the end that points to studies confirming what I've said. It's long but well, well worth the read. Here's the pdf. Here's a great intverview with Paul Campos, the author of The Obesity Myth. It does nice job of breaking down a lot of the issues surrounding weight discrimination. The main point I'm trying to make here is that it is a myth that being overweight is not inherently unhealthy (especially when you consider what the current standards for "overweight" are ridiculous). Living an unhealthy lifestyle is inherently unhealthy. Overweight individuals who exercise regularly have been proven to be more healthy and have less health issues than thin sedentary people. People who eat crap and don't excersize have more health problems regardless of weight. It's not the fat, it's the lifestyle.
• Oops! Forgot this great article by Glen Gaesser. It cites many studies and statistics backing up what I'm saying.
• Hey! I didn't reazize threaeds continue after their death. Why is this about weight? Why isn't this about websites that support/empower/enlist those who starve themselves? Or are they just too sexy, as long as they live, that is?
• I maintain that people should never have to apologize for their bodies!
• Because thin people are boring. Round people are exciting.
• And they have more fun.
• I really like what kmellis said way upthread. Food is sustenance, pleasure, and nurturing, to me. Cooking extends the pleasure. Feeding myself, my lover when I have one, my friends - that's a wonderful pleasure. I was lucky enough to grow up with a parent who cooked from scratch.
• Well, except Campos has been pretty well shown to be biased, and has his studies debunked. There was the whole Metafilter thread on the matter, if you recall.
• Joining this party a little late but wanted to add to it. Can we really blame "society" for everything? I agree, we are assaulted daily by unrealisitic body images in movies, TV, advertising, etc., but is "society" holding a gun to our heads and making us drink all 20 ounces of that sugary soda? I know many many people who are all shapes and sizes and come from various socioeconomic backgrounds who are able to live healthy lifestyles despite the ever increasing portion sizes supposedly thrust upon them by the Evil Empire. Yes, crappy sugary food is less expensive but it's really not that difficult or expensive to eat healthy these days. Western poor health is a combination of poor food (sometimes by choice, but also from lack of alternatives) and the biggest villain - a world without physical excercise. Cities are too large to walk, work traps you in a desk - and then we come home to sedentaryness. When did this become a world without physical exercise? How can a city be too large to walk? Sure, not everyone (myself included) is able to walk or ride a bike to work, but you can go outside and walk around your block, or drive/metro/bus to a park/school/gym/shopping mall and walk to your hearts content. Work traps you behind a desk if you let it. Take the stairs rather than the elevator. Walk the long way to the copy machine. Who's fault is it that you are sedentary? Society? Your job? It is a choice and cannot be blamed on society as a whole. I agree, Western culture does not promote living a healthy lifestyle, but we are not sheep. If someone is unhealthy there are simple changes that can be made to rectify that. *steps off soapbox*
• Of course Campos is biased. So are doctors who insist that fat is bad full stop--whose studies are well on their way to being debunked. Anyway, that's why I provided a variety of sources. YMMV. Also, I don't really read much metafilter anymore and I know that's true of many people here so that can't be assumed as a given.
   
• Oh and the link I provided to the Campos interview discusses more than just his studies. It has a great deal to do with the societal standards towards the overweight. So if readers of this thread are interested in the issues I've been discussing you're missing out if you dismiss it out of hand.
• If you leave home at 7am and return at 7pm and sleep at 9pm (to get up again at 5), because of your long commute (due to not being able to afford to live closer), and already exhausted (because a desk job does exhaust, even without physical activity), exactly when are you suposed to go for that lovely walk around your neighbourhood (assuming you have a neighbourhood pleasant to walk in, which is a big assumption)? Between 7 and 9, when you have to cook dinner and clean up, and maybe actually see your family? This is the reality for most workers - less and less time off. And walking around your work can make you thin/healthy if you aren't? I wish - last year I walked up and down four flights of stairs several times every day, and still had poor aerobic health and was still 30 pounds heavier than I had been 5 years earlier (weight I had gained during a period of extreme stress, and have yet to lose). Perhaps that excercise kept me from gaining more weight (it was also not a great period), but it didn't help me loose weight or feel any healthier. All these, "you aren't sheep, get out and take control" arguments just don't take into account a complex social issue, which is a tangled mess of personal choice, many societal demands that restrict that choice, especially the length of work days, genetics, available food, cultural expectations, etc. The changes to make yourself healthy, however you define it, are not simple or easy - people don't enjoy being unhealthy.
• people don't enjoy being unhealthy That's a really good point - if it's so easy, why isn't everybody doing it? Especially in a society as obsessed with thinness as ours. As well, do kids like being teased in school? Do women like feeling "unattractive"? Do men like dying of strokes and heart attacks? It's got to be pretty damn hard.
• 12 hour work days are not the norm. Most people have time to watch a couple hours of TV every night. Why can't they take half an hour of that time and go out for a jog? People have free time. How they choose to spend it is up to them, but they shouldn't complain when their choices catch up with them. Your argument virtually ignores individual choice, jb. That's a really good point - if it's so easy, why isn't everybody doing it? A complex question, obviously, but I suspect the answer is largely this: because it isn't fun.
• 12 hour work days are not the norm. Heh. Well, I dunno about USA, but in Singapore 12 hour days are pretty common, especially for single people. It was normal for me to get to work by 8 in the morning, and leave between 7 to 9 in the evening. This happened at least three times a week. And I worked alternate Saturdays. And was rostered to do whole-day Saturday and Sunday duties about twice a month each. And this was a cushy quasi-government job. Trust me, all my friends worked longer hours than I did. Sure, I had a couple of hours here and there to kill. After coming home, helping out with dinner, cleaning up a bit, bathtime, and occasionally some work that I brought home. I usually spent it reading, or trying to catch up with friends on the internet. I don't mind walking actually. In fact, I like taking long walks. I do that now, here in UK, because I have time. Trying to do it more than once a week in Singapore was hard, not just because of time, but climate too. Smo, I'm not saying you're wrong. Exercising can be quite tedious, but it can be fun if you find what suits you. I don't like aerobics, or hiking. But I like nice long walks, rural or urban areas. It's easy to generalise, but I personally think that people might have different reasons for not exercising.
• I agree with you, Alnedra. But most of us don't live in a society in which we have no free time. 80 hour jobs are largely a choice, at least in the parts of the world where obesity is the biggest problem. Which seems to be the important point. Unhealthy lifestyles seem to have gained traction most forcefully in affluent countries. I'm saying that the choice isn't between healthy and unhealthy. No one would choose to be unhealthy if it was that simple. Instead, I see it as a choice between healthy living plus the work involved, versus the alternative. This is a generalization, of course, and there are exceptions, but I think that's the basic picture. But even with busy lifestyles, there are ways to exercise. Like you, I like to read in my spare time. Problem is, reading doesn't exactly get the blood flowing, so as a compromise I borrow audiobooks from the library and listen to them as I walk. I'm not likely to want to listen to them at home, so once I get into a book, it acts as a kind of motivator to get out and exercise. Two birds, there.
• Well, a lot of people in my family do work 12 hours days, and that's in Canada. My mum works 9 hours at an office, plus 1 1/2 hours each way, bus and subway. I'm a student, so it really varies. Some weeks it's 4 hour days - and I try to go to the gym then - sometimes it's 12-16 hour days. I'm probably be up all tonight studying for mid-term tomorrow.
• exactly when are you suposed to go for that lovely walk around your neighbourhood...? How about on Saturday morning or Sunday evening or during your lunch hour? Or get the whole family involved and everyone go for a walk after dinner together. And walking around your work can make you thin/healthy if you aren't? No, simply walking around your work cannot make you thin/healthy. But it is a good place for someone to start who gets zero exercise and complains about having no time for exercise. It gets the blood and oxygen pumping to the brain and gets the muscles moving after hours of sitting at a desk, which in turn can provide a little more energy throughout the day, possibly even providing enough energy at the end of the day to exercise... jb, I'm sorry your family has such a long work week and no time to exercise because of it. But that is not the case for millions of people who come up with excuse after excuse to not incorporate 90 minutes of some kind of movement in the 10080 minutes they have each week. As you said, no one enjoys being unhealthy. Apparently some people enjoy the idea of exercise, or even changing their eating habits, less and so will continue to blame society for their unhealthiness.
• BTW, I'm not trying to say that everyone must exercise and eat healthy in order to be somewhat healthy. It's true that most people would benefit from both, but I'm mostly talking about the people who know they need to change their habits and would rather blame society than find ways to make those changes themselves.
• I like the feeling I get from exercise (dancing, mostly) but I hate the 'you must get X amount of exercise in order to achieve the correct level of cardio..blah blah blah' nonsense you hear and read all over the place. It's like they're trying to remove the fun and spontaneity of the experience. Same thing with food. The government comes up with some 'dietary guideline' or 'food pyramid' or some shit and turns eating into a function required by the Fatherland. And another thing, people (especially women) talk about diets constantly and it's frigging annoying. When someone tells me they've lost weight the first thing I ask them is, "have you been ill?" It freaks them out! Or if someone, who is obviously not fat, tells me they're too fat and they're going on a diet, I scan their bodies up and down and nod in agreement. They freak out too and usually stop with the diet talk, at least in front of me.
• The government comes up with some 'dietary guideline' or 'food pyramid' or some shit and turns eating into a function required by the Fatherland. LOL! Holy shit you've got a way with words, hik.
• Why, thank you, kind sir. *blush*
• hikikomori, you're college-age? Just be glad your friends aren't bulimic. They're probably just making mildly unoriginal small talk. It's something many girls do. (Unless you're being clever or something, and your username is ironic. ;) ) This thread got interesting after I slacked off it. I wish I were pretty enough to say I'm cute and lovable and worthy "just as I am," and I hope someday to be so. It's inspiring. Thank you.
• If any of my friends are bulimic then that's their choice (it's a very personal choice) and that's none of my business but I don't want to engage in diet talk with them and they know it. That's the worst kind of small talk - which I'll only engage in on the net - sometimes. I'm willing to discuss the stupid diet culture and the pressure it puts on people to be perfect but I won't participate in discussions that sound like this, "Oh my god I'm getting so fat, I'm a size six now!" Or, "I ate an extra piece of cake last night. I'm going on Atkins." Screw that.
• Hikikomori, you're way too self-satisfied.
• ...well, I'd file that under girlyness, like nattering about shoes or makeup. My sister and my dad and I are all on exercise plans (separately and coincidentally), and we'll talk about that, but it's not histrionic hand-wringing "ohmigod I had lettuce omigod I'm such a cow" kinda stuff. But I take your point. I wouldn't want to hear that kind of thing either. ...forgot to mention earlier that we also learned fascinating things about escorting in this thread! See, it's not all bad. (I'm not being sarcastic or lecherous; it's really pretty interesting. Little-known facts, and all that. Besides, I can't even give it away, so it's vicarious. A little. ;))
• Thanks. I know.
• above response meant for my pal, kmellis.
• I'm willing to discuss the stupid diet culture and the pressure it puts on people to be perfect... That depends on how you look at it. Striving to be perfect is folly. Striving to be better is what we all should be doing.
• hikikomori, you've got balls! Don't let reverse ageism bother ya'. T'ain't nothing wrong with self-assurance and you come across as a person of conviction and depth, and that will just improve with the years.
• "Striving to be better is what we all should be doing." It's not the better that bothers me (which is subjective), it's the should (which leads to coercion).
• dxlifer, you rock.
• Hey, in my world, fucking with people because you think you're smarter or wiser or less shallow than they are (even if it's true) is not a sign of "depth", nor for that matter, maturity. I was like hikikomori once. I got better, the sickness passed.
• kmellis, I very much doubt you were like me but if you were I'd be interested to know what has made you so bitter and angry now? Did someone/something crush your spirit? Did this, in turn, cause you to lash out at those who remind you of your better days? I ask this not to begin a fight (that would be a waste of time and energy) but out of honest curiosity.
• Well, see, there ya' go. Your smug assumptions about me are completely off-base. You're the person here with a deficit of generosity in your spirit, not me. You're the very definition of youthful arrogance. 75% of your comments have been negative judgments of other people. I'm only judging you. Do the math.
• Besides, I can't even give it away Me neither. I've been single as hell for over a year. But then again, I sort of like it, so it works out ok.
• I figured those questions might be difficult for you to answer, kmellis, they require honest introspection. Well, good luck anyway.
• Tracicle? Is there any way for you to have the last word here, so both kmellis and hikikomori can still save face?
• Hikikomori, at the risk of casting pearls before swine, I direct your attention to the fact that answering your questions would require much more than introspection, they would require the acceptance (in each case) of what I know to be false premises. Thus, they are essentially unanswerable. There is an enormous amount of armchair psychoanalysis in many of your comments—your "questions" to me included—that, in toto, is absurdly presumptious. Rather than growing "bitter and angry" as you suppose, I have instead managed to be a person of conviction, values, and (hopefully) depth; who is, nevertheless, as forgiving and kind as I can manage. This is because humility eventually snuck up behind me and kicked me in the ass.
• I believe I might have been wrong when I assumed you could not have been like me when you were young, kmellis. I suspect you and I are probably very alike. We're both "self-satisfied", "smug" and "arrogant" but I'm ok with that. I may not have experienced as much humility as you but I hope however much comes my way will teach me to tolerate and even respect the younger version of myself I will one day meet. When I do meet her/him I hope I'll recognise myself, smile and show them a little compassion, even if, secretly, I might want to kick their ass. Here's hoping I'll be able to handle the situation like a grown-up.
• Yeah, but Kmellis is coming off like a dick. A dick without a sense of humor. But hey, I'm already the worm-eater around here, so you don't gain much by having me take your side.
• Hey, I appreciate what I can get, js. :)
• I'll kick all of your asses. Especially those of you who are smaller than me. With emphysema.
• If you kids don't stop fighting I'll turn this thread right around and we'll all go home!
• Tracicle? Is there any way for you to have the last word here...? Uh, heh. Let's see... *checks online resources* Actually, I like what Koko said. Quiet in the back seat, I'm trying to drive and I can't concentrate! Also, this thread is great, except the bit where people aren't great.
• *tries to form coherent train of thought, fails*
• MonkeyFilter: this thread is great, except the bit where people aren't great. Koko...crank that wheel and burn rubber, puhlease.
• Dieting screws your metabolism. Talking constantly about dieting is one of the worst ways that women (likely unknowably) undermine each other. I know women who would certainly agree (if asked directly) that images of women in North American media (but less so for British, don't know why) are out of whack with healthy reality, let alone averages. And they are generally bright, highly educated women, even in positions of authority. But they will sit there, refuse to have some ice-cream, but not stop picking at it and talking about how they really shouldn't. Just have some bloody ice-cream already! And let me enjoy mine in peace. If you want to loose weight, excercise. Better yet, weight train and put on good musclely weight. Just don't diet and screw your metabolism (yoyo dieting makes your metabolism get lower and lower).
• With all due respect to the girly-girls, picking at ice cream and whining isn't all that dieting is. Cutting out snacks, eating more vegetables and fresh food, etc. etc., and not being half-assed or pretentious about it, that's dieting too. I exercised for months and lost nothing, changed my eating habits on top of that and dropped 10 pounds in two weeks. YMassMV. But I didn't whine about how I tooooootally shouldn't eat this ohmigod, although I talked about it online because the outlet motivates me and I hoped to motivate others in my situation. I wouldn't judge the whole concept based on a few women who half-assedly go about it without any solid info because they've been socialized into thinking that women shouldn't eat, yet don't actually look into healthy eating habits. And nobody should be bothering others who decide to eat differently. By all means, eat ice cream and enjoy it, if that's what you want. If I'm harshing your mellow, that's bad. And you can diet and do that, too. Sorry about the manifestoness of that. Just thought it tarred with too wide a brush. I love you all don't kill me please the end.
• Am I late for the fight?
• Now don't you start, Abiezer! As soon as GramMa gets here, we're all gonna be in big trouble.
• Wait, there was a fight here? *chuckle*
• *swings and misses, falls over*
• What tracicle said - this thread contains many and various views on issues that I for one am perhaps too ignorant of to comment about but hopefully not too arrogant to sit, read and learn about. Thanks to all those who shared their opinions (and especially personal experiences) from one in your audience.
• Ding. All boron is required by the Newton Abbot. Quackmate.
• I hope however much comes my way will teach me to tolerate and even respect the younger version of myself I will one day meet when i meet the younger version of myself i'll warn me about that nasty motorcycle asshole dave. time travel rocks!
• Wow. fades into the background to watch some more
• I was going to go into much detail on my long-running eating dysfunction (I outweighed the other 4 monkeys total at the last Meetup I attended) and my resulting poorer-than-poor health, but as of this moment in my life I'm still trying to figure out what I am going to do next - I just know it's going to be something... just as soon as it stops raining. Also, I don't want to be exposed to ana. I can't believe nobody's made that comment earlier
• dangit, wendell wins again. Now all we need is for GramMa to tagline this trainwreck and we can all go drink.
• I don't think it was a trainwreck :)
• oh. Well then! Cheers! *clinque!*
• I just stumbled across this article on the BBC news website. It reminded me of this thread, and how impressionable young minds are. Granted, children this young should not be browsing the internet unsupervised. But given numerous ways that one is able to find readily accessible terminals to the web (e.g., school, library, friend's home etc.), it seems almost unrealistic to think that children as young as 6 years-old could not be exposed to such a site. Society begins to shape us from day one...