December 17, 2004

• Ya do a GIS for rosacea and you get this guy. I have seen the face of the devil.
• Oh, bullshit. Please... Just look at the Chloracne. Anyone with a passing familiarity with dioxin poisoning can see the clinical signs. Rosacea? Jesus, what crap. That's childsplay compared to his outward signs. Dioxin fat soluble? Of course. Most soups contain fats. Jesus, what the hell are you using for stock? Yushenko's dioxin levels won't be normal for a long time. Dioxin most definetly does collect in fat cells, and its likely he will be displaying symptoms for at least two years, optimistic press releases on his behalf aside. This post is, well... Garbage.
• Thoth, I don't think you read the links. The evidence against dioxin poisoning is compelling. Yuschenko's face showed spidery rosacea-like symptoms before the alleged poisoning, photos posted reveal. No one knows how the poison was administered - the soup idea was a guess - the amount of dioxin used is said to be the largest in the history of such cases, so one assumes he would have to have supped *a lot* of soup. Dioxin smells and tastes really bad. No one has ever died of dioxin poisoing - so why would someone use it as a poisoning agent? It doesn't add up - neither does Yuschenko's behaviour since the 'poisoning'. CodeBlueBlog is written by a doctor. I think the comments warrant more than your dismissal.
• I read the links, and I am a doctor specialising in clinical pathology. Not my area, for sure, but his choracne is not somethingt that can seriously ever be attributed to rosecea. It really is apples and oranges.
• Hey, We have one of those...An Alchoholic President that is. Perhaps he could use the Dioxin claim too?
• Nostrildamus, some doubts have been cast on the credentials of the antiwar.com site you linked to: Antiwar.com was not a leftwing site opposing the Kosovo war. it was a rightwing site set up to oppose the Kosovo intervention in 1999. Its 'editorial director' was a man called Justin Raimondo who was active in the small US Libertarian party before joining the Republican party. In the 1992, 1996 and 2000 elections he supported the campaigns of Pat Buchanan, the far-right isolationist candidate.
• The dioxin poisoning, well yes, no, maybe. At this stage in the Ukranian election, who knows what's what any more? The suggested reasons why dioxin "doesn't add up" are less than compelling, but equally the claim that it is dioxin is fairly single-source. But the claim of it being sudden alcohol-induced rosacea (with at least two other hypothesised ailments, acute pancreatitis and Bell's Palsy, also needed to complete the list of symptoms, with the onset of both necessarily having happened at the same time as the rosacea flare-up) is even more implausible. And to necessarily deduce, specifically, alcohol-poisoning from that, when alcohol is one of only a large number of possible trigger-factors for rosacea... For the main linked article to jump on that tentative diagnosis (which even the guy himself admits he cannot make) as a "fact"... it's crap. Just another person with an agenda for the Ukraine.
• Yeah, Nostrildamus, you suck!!! And this post sucks!
• Yeah, Nostrildamus, you suck!!! And this post sucks! And you've probably got some kind of mutiple personality disorder, you sick fuck! I am a doctor specialising in clinical pathology Oh yeah? Well I am an alcoholic! And I think that *BURP!* *passes out*
• I'm not impressed with their top ten reasons. Reason #10. It is hard to believe that while Viktor was acutely poisoned (with poison everywhere in his blood, sputum, sweat, and semen); they missed the diagnosis but now, MONTHS later they make the diagnosis in twelve hours (they say someone fortuitously developed a new test recently to make the diagnosis). Fat soluble compounds take time to be absorbed. THC (a fat soluble compound) takes over a week to show up in tests designed specifically to detect trace amounts of it. A test for dioxon should fail when performed to early. Also, I can't find any specific indication (in the links provided) that a test for dioxon was performed the first time. If dioxon poisoning is as uncommon as he makes it sound, and as costly to detect as he makes it sound, then it's doubtful that a test for it was performed. Doctors look for the common causes first, and then test for odd and rare ones when they can't find a commn one. Reason #9. A real expert in poisoning says this would be a unique case in the history of forensic toxicology. There is nothing contained in this "reason". What's the name of this "real expert", and what are the specifics he states? A "real expert" would have a name, references, and make claims much less vague. Reason #8. There is no Reason #8. This is a pretty creative way to count to 10, or it's blatant example of his attention detail. Reason #7. There are many major medical institutions and hospitals throughout Europe; why does Yushchenko keep going to this private clinic (it’s actually a keep-away clinic for the rich and Euro-famous -- you know the type) if he’s really concerned about getting help – did Bill Clinton go to a hideaway hospital for his bypass? And Andy Kaufman did go to a hideway hospital for his terminal illness. So what? A hideaway is going to be more secure for someone hiding from assassins. Also, given a choice, many people would choose a doctor for the rich over a doctor for the poor. It's not unreasonable to assume that he'd get better care there. And even it was a horrible choice, how the heck would Yushchenko know better? He's not in the medical field. He'd get they advice from his lackeys, who also aren't in the medical feild. Yushchenko choosing an elitist doctor does not constitute proof of non-poisoning. Reason #6. Rudolfinerhaus had to send the blood samples to another hospital/clinic in Amsterdam to get the answer (they did that fast, didn’t they?) Why didn’t Viktor just go to Amsterdam himself? The samples were sent to a lab better equipped for the necessary tests. That's called standard procedure, it's not suspicous, it's common. This blogger thought Yushchenko should've flown to Amsterdam to have blood drawn? Come on. The sample got there fast? See Reason #7. This is one of them perks from choosing an elite hospital. Reason #5. Viktor’s wife was brought in to tell some egregious and laughable tales, like “I just remembered... I tasted the poison that night when I kissed him.” As my daughter would say: OH… MY… GOD! Straw man. She said something totally different. She claimed she tasted medicine on his breath, not poison. This would not be the first a person has taken medicne when they didn't feel well. She noted it because he usually didn't take medicine. Which would be totally consistant with him not wanting to talk with her about it. Someone who doesn't like to take medicne doesn't want to admit when they pussed out out, because of the pain. And it's also common for someone to downplay their ache to a loved one.
• Reason #4. Dioxin is a chlorine-based fat- soluble compound. Chlorine stinks. And Dioxin doesn’t dissolve in water. So the brilliant spies are trying out a new way to poison someone with a chemical that stands out in water like an oil slick and stinks like Limburger cheese left all day in the dry sauna --- is that likely? They creamy pesto I had for dinner last nighthad a pool of grease in that stood out "like an oil slick" and the dinner stunk "like Limburger cheese left all day in the dry sauna". Grease isn't water-based— dioxin put into a greasy dish would go unnoticed. Dioxins are a food contaminant. They are produced as byproducts from factories that use chlorine or from incinerators. They are widespread in the environment and low doses accumulate in the body, mostly through food. The reason why we have "normal" levels of it in us is because it's in our food, even though it's fat-based, and not water-based. Reason #3. Being fat-soluble, Dioxin would be absorbed by many organs – especially the liver – and these organs would contain that fatty compound for months, at least, if not years. Yet Zimpfer says there are no traces of Dioxin in Viktor’s liver or pancreas. He also said Yushchenko’s Dioxin levels “have returned to normal.” That is not possible. Bullshit. All sources I can find quoting zimpfer state "dioxin concentrations were 1,000 times normal levels" and it would take "years to heal". He does link an article where an AP reporter makes the implication of normal levels, but for the very same reasons this blogger gives make it much more likely this reporter made an incorrect summary of technical data that he/she did't understand. It's much more likely that a reporter, not the doctor, who mispoke this. Research shows without doubt that Dioxin remains in humans – in their fat and liver – for many years. The half life of Dioxin in humans is seven years. So, if Yushchenko’s Dioxin levels are normal – then he was never poisoned! See above. 3 a. Zimpfer cannot know #3 unless they did a large core liver biopsy this weekend, which they could not have done. And these biopsies take days to fix, stain and analyze. Again, see above. Reason #2. The doctors in Austria have not offered even one shred of quantitative data (for perusal) to back up their claim. Not one lab test or pathology result. They didn’t even mention (oops!) which tests they did! They simply said the tests were positive for Dioxin. They have not produced any documents or other doctors who have SEEN the results. Only Zimpfer. And he’s a shill – that’s already proved. At "hideway hospital" you'd expect them be good at maintaining medical confidentiality. Zimpfer's bias might've been "proved" (sic), but not by you. Matter of fact, you've tried to make him seem biased in the other direction. Make up your mind. Reason #1. Yesterday Yushchenko announced that he does not want any official investigation into his “poisoning” until after the elections. Ha! Why? Because he says he doesn’t want it to affect the outcome. Hasn’t it done that already? He means he doesn’t want it to affect the outcome the wrong way! The election hasn't been affected near as much as it would be after an investigation. You even alude to the fact that the cat is still in the bag, so quit acting like it's already out.
• One other thing: I agreed that Yushchenko's face has since transmogrified into something quite unusual and my first suggestion is that he was coating the eruption with pancake make-up; however, for anyone to adduce his facies as proof of poisoning, I would accuse that person of a logical error in trying to make a diagnosis from a clinical SIGN, which can be a common endpoint of many different pathophysiologic pathways. Yet your diagnosis of alcoholism, based from the exact same "clinical SIGN", is logically sound? You're use of logic is especially absurd considering the fact that you haven't examined the patient, just seen some photographs, yet your diagnosis is suposed to carry more wait than the team of doctors who have been examining him, and have access to information that you've admitted to not having (see #2). Now, after all that (sorry so long), This doesn't mean that I'm positive Yushchenko was poisoned. There's other explanations (like the fact that dioxin is food contaminate, and it's possible he ate something that was much more contaminated than food normally is). I just think this blogger made a piss poor case for him not being poisoned, despite whatever medical background he has.
• (I kept changing how I reffered to the blogger, from "their" to "he" to "you" to "this blogger". I didn't catch the subject transition [or whatever it's called] during my previews. Oops.)
• All I know is that the dioxin treatment has made him look like a serious, no-nonsense, old-school Communist polit, like something from 1960s footage of the evil empire, smacking shoes on tables and shouting cyrillic gibberish in threatening tones. He really looks like a seriously heavy bad-ass, now.
• Dioxin is an unintentional breakdown product formed in many industrial processes involving chlorine, such as waste incineration, chemical and pesticide manufacturing, and pulp and paper bleaching. So, it’s a chlorinated compound – and chlorine products generally STINK (take a whiff of the pool cleaner some time). hmmm... Dioxin is a colorless solid, with no known odor. You sir, have been defeated...BY SCIENCE!
• despite whatever medical background he has Radiologist. A long way removed from the topic in question. some doubts have been cast on the credentials of the antiwar.com site Well, they don't try to hide it. (The Grauniad risibly assumes the left to own the entire gamut of "antiwar.") Witness this Mother Jones editorial by the same wingnut from the original FPP. An addendum to #4 of Knick's excellent rebuttal: chlorine products generally STINK (take a whiff of the pool cleaner some time). Fucking x-ray monkey. Chlorine compounds do not "generally stink": witness odorless sodium chloride and calcium chloride, or sweet-smelling methylene chloride and vinyl chloride. Pool cleaner can contain free-chlorine-liberating hypochlorites, or corrosive hydrogen chloride. Dioxin is colorless and odorless.
• Thanks, Mr. Knickerbocker - great explanation (Thoth, too). My visceral reaction is that this cannot be just roseacea. Even if that blogger is a doctor, he certainly did nothing to help his case by writing so inanely.
• He's an x-ray monkey. He couldn't be expected to know any better. Odorless sodium and calcium chlorides, sweet-smelling vinyl chloride. Pool cleaner smells like it does because it's either hypochlorite, which releases free chlorine gas, or hydrogen chloride, a corrosive acid.
• If that's rosacea, I too need to go back to medical school. While I haven't seen a case of chloracne, I've certainly seen and treated countless cases of both rosacea and alcoholism. And this ain't them. Also, this guy stinks of having an agenda. I just don't even care enough to fish around and find out what it is.
• From the Washington Post article titled "Extreme Dioxin Levels In Yushchenko's Blood." Emphasis mine:

  LONDON -- New tests show that Ukrainian presidential candidate Viktor Yushchenko's blood contains the second-highest level of dioxin poisoning ever recorded in a human -- more than 6,000 times the normal concentration, according to the expert analyzing the samples. Abraham Brouwer, professor of environmental toxicology at the Free University in Amsterdam, where the blood samples were sent for analysis, said they contained about 100,000 units of dioxin per gram of blood fat. Brouwer and his team have narrowed the search from more than 400 types of dioxin to about 29 and are confident they will identify the poison by week's end. That could provide clues to its source. Yushchenko, who faces Kremlin-backed Viktor Yanukovych in a repeat runoff on Dec. 26, has experienced pancreatitis and gastrointestinal pain, as well as severe backache. His face also has been pockmarked and disfigured by the poison. Brouwer said the highest dose of dioxin recorded so far was in a woman in Vienna who was intentionally poisoned in the mid-1990s. Tests showed her blood had 144,000 units per gram of fat, and she survived. Nearly everyone's blood contains some level of dioxin. The normal level is from 10 to 20 units per gram of blood fat.

  Take off the tin foil hat, Nostrildamus.
• These protests against Yushchenko's poisoning seem to have all the validity of the arguments protesting the accepted explanations for the Kennedy assassination, the 9/11 hijackings and that spate of "mysterious deaths of biowarfare researchers" last year. The only difference is normally the fringers are arguing for a conspiracy, and in this case they're arguing against one. Has Yushchenko made efforts to affirm exactly what happened to him beyond what they can completely prove yet? Quite possibly - he is a politician in a tough fight after all. Was he really poisoned with a dioxin-like substance? All reasonable evidence says yes.
• if you wanted to poison someone, why not use cyanide, arsenic, strychnine, antifreeze, etc? dioxin seems an odd choice. also, the bumps and shit on his face dont exaclty resemble typical gin blossom thingies. but what do i know?
• this guy stinks of having an agenda It's "Look at me! Look at me!!" Whoring for blogshare. IMO natch.
• if you wanted to poison someone, why not use cyanide, arsenic, strychnine, antifreeze, etc? dioxin seems an odd choice. Perhaps the goal was to sicken, not kill. Killing someone turns them into a martyr. Sickening them removes them from the political race. The pre-election timing is suggestive.
• if you wanted to poison someone, why not use cyanide, arsenic, strychnine, antifreeze, etc? One theory is that the guy was considered very good looking before the poisoning, and that perhaps his opponents where trying to make him look bad, literally, in order to bring him down. The added plus for his oppononets is obvious just by looking at this thread: They could try and paint him as an alcoholic. Killing him would have been way to obvious and could have brought about a sympathy vote. *shrug*
• dioxin = ugly stick!
• Here's what's been bugging me about this case. If Yushchenko was poisoned, by this elite cocktail prepared by a secret lab in Russia specializing in such things... Why is he still alive?
• He's the great grandson of Rasputin
• Take off the tin foil hat, Nostrildamus. Fat chance of that. This is a guy who believes in ghosts, afterall.
• this is a great thread. and i'm with nal on this one.
• 4. Dioxin is a chlorine-based fat- soluble compound. Chlorine stinks. And Dioxin doesn
• Take off the tin foil hat, Nostrildamus. Don't listen to them Nossie! Pull it down over your ears instead!
• Yushchenko 'given Agent Orange ingredient'
• The sickening motive also makes very good sense. Why kill the guy? That would only enrage his supporters, who would undoubtedly find some other candidate, who even if they were unknown would instantly have the sympathy vote. Heck, his wife might run in his place, and she'd probably win in a landslide in those circumstances. That would be absolutely classic. Plus with all the shenanigans leading up to the election the Europeans probably wouldn't accept the results if the only opposition candidate up and died a few weeks before. Much better to get him with some long lasting toxin with whole body health impact that probably won't kill him. It was already a close campaign. The government candidate did have a fair bit of support, even before they rigged the vote. All they had to do was make sure Yushchenko did a crappy campaigning job in the last leg of the election. Heck, you can even argue that they poisoned him too much. It was the profound change in appearance that made it so obvious that something had been done to him and raised people's sympathy and interest. If Yushchenko had just been claiming illness and looking a bit under the weather, most people would probably pass off the poisoning accusation as election whining and held it against him.
• Along with SideDish, I'm with Nal. While I'm all about alternative news sources, you don't have to get too many sentences into this one to tell that they've got an axe to grind.
• Absolutely. It's one interesting side-effect of the Ukraine palaver, that it's given a bit of a shock to anybody who instinctively trusts alternative news sources more than the mainstream media. In one of the more pleasingly tangled events, the Grauniad got quite badly burned in trying to source alternative voices for its mainsteam coverage: first printing this (without properly checking the guy out), then printing this attack on the previous article, then this letter attacking the attack...
• Still, I have to say 'thanks for the link'. Reading about conspiracy theories is the best way learn how to be skeptical in general - both of the accepted wisdom and the tin-foil hat types. Other classic conspiracies: The Globe and Mail breaks a story that a dozen or so biowarfare researchers have died under mysterious circumstances in the previous year. An academic statistician looks into it, finds that the researchers' work had little or nothing in common, that most had nothing directly to do with biowarfare. Their deaths turned out to have perfectly acceptable explanations, such as known heart trouble, or driving home drunk from a party and stopping on a bridge famous for drunk people stopping to admire the view. If a plane crashed into the Pentagon, where was the wreckage? I have to admit, while I didn't buy in, this one did make me wonder. Then, lo and behold, only a couple months ago someone comes up with a video from research in the 60s showing that a plane impacting concrete at that speed can actually vaporize. Everyone breathes a (guilty) sigh of relief. The Kennedy Assassination This one's my favorite. No one will ever know the answer. For every bit of evidence suggesting a conspiracy, there's solid evidence suggesting the conspiracy is claptrap. A great example is the single bullet that magically bounced all over the car and caused half a dozen wounds in two different people. Exactly how likely is that? Then two dentists set out to prove it couldn't happen by shooting bullets at sides of beef under controlled conditions and discover instead that the bullets can take all sorts of weird and bizarre paths through flesh and bone. Entertaining and informative at the same time!
• This is a good thread, tinfoil hat comments aside. People are thinking, not necessarily taking the media's word for granted. Always good.
• If I was wearing a 'tinfoil hat' wouldn't I be siding with those who were advocating that he *was* poisoned? Also - I've never said I believe in ghosts. I only said that the case for the existance of ghosts has not been proven either way.
• Nostrildamus, ghosts can't be disproven. Like god. and leprechauns.

• Why kill the guy? That would only enrage his supporters, who would undoubtedly find some other candidate, who even if they were unknown would instantly have the sympathy vote. Heck, his wife might run in his place, and she'd probably win in a landslide in those circumstances.

  Cory Aquino, Benazir Bhutto, the Ghandi clan, et al.
• Now I understand why Nostrildamus is so so hot-headed. His tinfoil hat is making his tiny brain cook.
• What are you pointing out, rodgerd? Benazir Bhutto's father, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, wasn't assassinated but hanged by General Zia ul-Haq on trumped up charges (my opinion) of political assassination. Benazir didn't come into power until General Zia's death in a plane crash 11 years later! Indira Gandhi (no relation to Mohandas K. Gandhi) took over the Congress Party of India from her father, Jawaharlal Nehru. Indira was fortunate in being in politics when there was essentially a single national party in India, but the party did splinter into a number of factions during her rule. Indira Gandhi and her son Rajiv Gandhi were both assassinated, but it would be a stretch to say that Rajiv won on a sympathy vote after Indira's death, or that his widow Sonia Gandhi led the Congress party to its recent election win because of a sympathy vote. In fact, Rajiv's assassination was followed by a long period of political turbulence and dominance by the opposition BJP. If you were disagreeing with the quoted text, these are good counterexamples.
• I think quidnunc was poisoned by the whiskey. Just to make him look bad. good thread - ) to Thoth, Nal, and Mr. Knick.
• The "it has chlorine in it, therefor he would've smelled it" argument reminds me of a friend who thought that amphetamine was bad because it contains a benzene ring. He looked up benzene, found it was toxic, and that was good enough for him. I decided not to tell him that his body contained countless trillions of benzene rings in amino acids like phenylalanine, etc.
• The rest of the thread notwithstanding, the exchange of "Thoth, I don't think you read the links."..."I read the links, and I am a doctor specialising in clinical pathology" pretty much sums up why I loves me some monkeyfilter. An armful of the tailored fruit for everyone.
• People are thinking, not necessarily taking the media's word for granted. Always good. You're talking about the old world here. Haven't you heard that everything's different now?
• Also, does it say how many times do you have to get drunk for this to happen to your face? Because I want to get drunk one less time than that, then quit drinking.
• Good thread. I always enjoy having received wisdom into question; having said that, the "he wasn't poisoned, he's a DRUBK!" theory is pure Kremlinesque poppycockery. Remember when skeptics said that guy couldn't have been poisoned by a Bulgarian umbrella? "A Bulgarian umbrella! Hahaha! What a stupid idea!" But he was. Secret services are nasty.
• Languagehat is referring to the assassination of Georgi Markov. Every time I walk across Waterloo Bridge I think about that.
• All this speculation ignores the blatent theft of the election in the Ukraine. Hmmmm ... let me think... What recent political event does this remind me of?
• "Now I understand why Nostrildamus is so so hot-headed. His tinfoil hat is making his tiny brain cook." Yeah! That's right, girl! He's so stupid. And I bet he has, like, cooties, too! Tee hee hee!
• Thanks, Danger. I couldn't remember his name and was too lazy to google.
• An armful of the tailored fruit for everyone. What I've enjoyed is the tailored fruit from everyone. I think nostril deserves a ) for getting all this knowledge and thought out of the monkeys on this post.
• I also must apologise to nostril... Posting on a friday with an alchohol drenched brain made me act like significantly more of an arsehole than I should have. Sorry. I forgot mofi is not like the rest of the web, where one shoots the bile first.. then defends questions later. Freinds?
• Also, does it say how many times do you have to get drunk for this to happen to your face? Because I want to get drunk one less time than that, then quit drinking. My grandfather drank for sixty-plus years and never looked like that, and my adopted dad has been drinking for thirty-ish years and shows no signs of stopping, and he doesn't look like that, so I think you'll be okay. I second dxlifer.
• adopted adoptive?
• "...said they contained about 100,000 units of dioxin per gram of blood fat." Via this Slate article on dioxin, here's a page (a paper) describing the most severe dioxin poisoning so far known. This was a woman doing clerical work at a textile shop in Vienna, her officemate was poisoned as well. The more severely poisoned woman had recorded dioxin levels at about 144K per g of blood fat, her officemate had about 26K. Prior to these cases, the highest values of dioxin poisoning were 10K per g for an adult and 56K per g for a child. These latter two cases were from the Saveso, Italy industrial accident that poisoned people via inhalation. The 26K poisoned woman, "Patient 2", did not develop nearly as severe chlorachne as "Patient 1", and it was successfully treated with Retin-A. "Patient 1", however, has had extremely severe chloracne over large portions of her body. Chloracne also can cause a "bad smell" and "Patient 1" has unsurprisingly suffered many social and marriage problems as a result. She was, at the time (in 1998) 30 years old. You might note that the photos of the chloracne of these two patents look quite like Yushchenko's, and not much at all like rosacea. Yushchenko's measured level of dioxin puts him in the territory of poor "Patient 1's" level and quite a bit beyond anyone else's. Note that Yuschenko and "Patient 1" are still alive. "Patient 1" has had ongoing gastrointestinal problems, cysts have been sugically removed. Her menstruation has stopped and there are some other odd things but generally the chloracne and gastrointestinal problems have been the chief effects. This is surprising because in animal studies the LD50 dose of dioxin intoxication has been lower than these dosages, indicating that it's not as lethal in humans as in the animals tested. That is to say, it'll take more dioxin to fatally poison a person than people have heretofore have suspected. The cause of this poisoning in Vienna is unknown, a criminal investigation was undertaken but was closed.
• Yushchenko poisoned by most harmful known form of dioxin. This rules out most inadvertent sources. His levels are also confirmed to be 2nd highest ever in history, outdone only by kmellis's link above.