December 08, 2004

• Do you work for the New York times or something? I can see through your self referential ruse...
• Pattern Recognition. If someone had taken the king's shilling (in one way or another) to recommend summat, I might be suspicious. When I ask the monkeys what they like, I hope they're giving me a genuine answer, not that they're some marketing bod's gimp. If they work for something they genuinely love, and are upfront, that's both different and fine by me.
• I'd never shill for any site
• Never
• Despite the fact that marketing deceives us all the time, this crosses a line for me. Whether it be here in MonkeyLand or Out There, shilling (paid or unpaid) would be grounds for a big punch in the cock. Of course, I define "shilling" as acting as an agent for a particular product--with that company's knowledge/approval/solicitation/etc. Then again, this is just my gut reaction and I'm not taking the Reasoning Train. However, if I didn't know about it, then all is well. Ignorance is handy sometimes.
• Name That Itch, that is pretty much my take. Taking someone's advice on something is a form of trust. If, say, after a dozen times of asking a certain friend about various products and that friend always recommended a new Amway product that trust would erode completely and I would turn to a more trusted opinion. Shilling is obvious when you see it, especially in repeat doses.
• I highly recommend that all Monkeys break the law whenever they can. In North Carolina, that is. Okay, southeastern North Carolina, to be specific.
• If they are, they won't be my friends for much longer, I'll tell you that much. Sincerity and honesty are very important to me. I'd rather they opened up a freaking catalog and launched a Tupperware-party pitch than dropped hints designed to look like a recommendation. It's effective, naturally. It targets the stupid (why should I consider the source of what's being told to me?) and the desperate (must do what cool kids say!). The world will never run out of those. If the person recommending sincerely likes their overlord's product... why are they even bothering to be shills? Turning people on to things you love is its own reward, in my opinion. Money? Get another job. Sell plasma. Turn tricks. At least telemarketers can have someone to look down on now.
• I think if a friend shows up to a bbq with a fistful of discount coupons, we can all be a little suspicious. to a certain extent I think we've all had to deal with this before (or does no one else know people who are likely to get caught up in the latest pyramid scheme health product thing). I remember hear a few years ago about a similar tactic one company was using to promote its new camera--have strategically-placed and innocuous looking folks ask other people to take their picture (thereby getting them to try the camera).
• What about situations where you used to recommend a product, praising its true awesomeness to the skies, and then ... without warning, you got rewarded for it? In my case, I "sold" a friend on Tivo. After a party where he used my Tivo, asked me questions, and I raved a bit, he bought a couple from EBay. When registering them, he listed me as the referrer. There's a program I didn't know about called "Tivo Rewards". You get "points" for referrals. 5 referrals get you a new top-end Tivo. 4 get you an iPod, etc. Since my friend bought two Tivos, and then another one did so, I now have 4 of the 5 referrals I need. If I continue to be honest with people, recommending my Tivo as our family's favorite gadget, am I now one of these "evil shills"? Was I one before I knew about the reward program? It is strange, I know the program is supposed to encourage me to go out and "spread the gospel", but now I feel a bit more reticent. I'd like the new Tivo, sure, but I don't want to be one of their salespeople. It is a mixed-feelings thing for me. I now worry about whether I'm being honest, or a salesweasel.
• am I now one of these "evil shills"? If you tell people what you just told us, the answer is no. You're being up front. That being said, I don't want to be your 5th referral, invoke. Thanks, tho. =)
• In this line at the bottom of page one, talking about the photo trick, I had a chilling vision of the future: 'And thus an act of civility was converted into a branding event' This message brought to you courtesy of the Jingsi Vegetarian Restaurant - best dumplings in downtown Beijing.
• Good point. Not evil if disclosed. I've offered to buy my coworkers a nice dinner if they "refer me", if they should happen to get a Tivo for Xmas. No selling there either, just a simple trade.
• well don't none of you worry that I might be an evil shill, because I would never do corporate promotion for FREE. duh....
• As a marketing executive (*ducks*) I find it very difficult to believe that these people were very effective. Word of mouth is often touted as the best advertising you can get, but in reality it's mostly crap, and too infinitesimal to bother with, especially for an item like a food product. I would bet high that the "one hundred percent" increases in localized sales were at least 95% bullshit, probably along the lines of "Um, we sold two last week, and four this week - a hundred percent increase! Yay!" Pfui. Beyond that, y'all have to relax. There are people in this world who's job it is to sell things. They sometimes want to sell things to you. If you don't want to buy those things, you say no. The moment your cousin Filbert says at the big family bbq "You know, this Uncle Fester-brand potato salad is potato-licious! I'm going right over to the Piggly Wiggly and pick up some of this scintillating Uncle Fester's Ho-Made Potato Salad right now!" you've pretty much go him sussed, and thus can avoid the incredibly devious marketing trap those potato salad pushing bastards over at Uncle Fester's Phine Phoods have set for you.
• No selling there either, just a simple trade. Here at the Marketing department, we call that a "kickback." :D
• the king's shilling Booo! Boooo!! *throws banana peels*
• I'd like me some ho-made potato salad.
• Fes, I think some of these shilling (or rather stealth marketing, as some call it) tactics are a little more subtle and those are the ones that irk me. I don't think to say no, because I don't realize I'm being pitched at first (a theorehtical situation, of course). If cousin Filbert came up to me and said, "Hey, I love this potato salad so much that I'm working for Uncle Fester," well then, I'd be much more receptive to him and to the potato salad. I guess my feelings partly stem from my lengthy employment as a drugstore manager. I always called things like I saw 'em and I think my customers appreciated that. And now I am off to get some potato salad at the local deli.
• Isn't is kind of strange that offering a kickback feels more ethical (to me) than being honest about a gadget you love?
• Oh, and here's another similar story. (and great FPP, immlass)
• OK, I just read through page 7 of the story, and those people are SOOOOOOOOOO lame, I can't believe that, if they told me that cat turds tasted bad, I wouldn't be having a bowlfull with my morning coffee tomorrow. Lame lame-os of lameness. If I put together a marketing effort like this, I'd be laughed out of my office. Then fired. Then beaten up by my assistant (she's hella tough). Then my kitschy desk toys would be stolen and absconded with. Then a rolled up copy of last year's numbers would be shoved up my butt. No one is overtly trying to sell you anything, only trying to get you to want it, and then, of course, buy it and tell your friends about it. It
• I think some of these shilling (or rather stealth marketing, as some call it) tactics are a little more subtle and those are the ones that irk me. OK, I can understand that. But my contention is that, unless the thing that's being stealthed to you is both a high dollar and high margin item, stealth marketing of this sort would only work if you had bazillions of people doing it. In sales, especially small-item sales, you have to reach the largest percentage of your target audience that you can, and one on one is too small and too slow to do it. Hence, my declaration that it's poop.
• This thread has inspired me to buy a pair of Black Spot Sneakers.
• Isn't is kind of strange that offering a kickback feels more ethical (to me) than being honest about a gadget you love? Ever consider a job in Marketing? :D
• To some extent Fes I agree with you - this is a con. These guys must be wetting themselves at their PR coup. The ground was prepared with books like The Tipping Point and now pseuds who have a convincing patter (word of mouth! influence! viral!) can play on the anxieties of marketers with too much money and not enough brains, just like the Freudians did 50 years ago. Nothing personal, Fes, but my experience of professional marketers is that they tend to lack intellectual rigour... Having said that: there is a mental effort involved in screening out marketing messages, and I resent having to make it. These clowns may be ineffective, but they are still rude, discourteous exploiters of our collective good nature. Fuck them, and fuck all people who exploit the commons of our goodwill for gain.
• Let me get this straight: when one of my customers comes in to tell me they referred ten friends to me and want some kind of freebie in return, you're saying that's okay because I didn't recruit them. So people who opt in ahead of time (for no reward) are bad, wicked, evil tools of The Man, and people who pimp their friends to me in the hopes of milking freebies later are not?
• If I'm going to be advertised at, or to, then the payment for my attention should be entertainment value. An ordinary joe or jane shilling for a product is not entertainment. A Honda ad where the cog sets off a chain of events based on the parts of the car is going to create a favorable impression. I'm not going to harsh on marketers too much, but entertain me, people!
• Brand HawthorneWingo elicits in consumers feelings and images such as being in a safe, warm place; being with close friends; being true to your inner self; and oral-anal sex.
• Cali, could you clarify who you're addressing there? I can't match up your summary with anything anyone's said so far.
• I'd like me some ho-made potato salad. Mmm... full of old-time, down-ho flavor.
• vitlorgnz, I could've been a lot more clear and a lot less shrill. Sorry. What I meant was, everyone seems to agree that they hate this program (where people opt in to receive free products and promote the ones they like). But what is it they hate? That people are getting free stuff? That the ones who are accepted into the program are the "popular" kids? No, they hate that it's intentional, that it's not just someone who loves a product going around telling all their friends about it (i.e., the Cult Of Mac). It's the intent, not the reward that's at issue. I was trying to point out the difference in intent by using the example of a customer (someone who bought the product on their own) telling their friends about it and then trying to use those referrals to gain something from the company. For example, I have a friend who has talked four people into signing up for the same credit card she has. She thinks the company should give her something, even though they don't have a referral program.
• For myself, I don't hate the intent. I hate two other things. 1. I hate the deception about the motivation. Specifically, you deceive me when you do not reveal to me that you are being rewarded by a 3rd party. 2. I hate the loss of yet another sphere of human interaction to marketers. Re your example of the person who sells to their friends without a prior relationship to the supplier and then angles for a reward - such a person would not stay my friend for long, not because of their intention per se, but because they too are deceiving and badgering me.
• I just hate the assholes who would do this to their friends. I myself am a shameless shill for things or people I think are good- just because I like to recommend good things, and I like to see talented people get the credit they deserve. But if it sucks, I'll say so too. That way people know when i do say something's good, it has some meaning. As part of the performing community, there's nothing I hate worse than shows with a "fixed" audience- friends that howl in laughter at anything their friends on stage do. This can lead to very bad performers kidding themselves they are good, when they constantly perform for friendly audiences.
• As a marketing executive (*ducks*) I find it very difficult to believe that these people were very effective. Word of mouth is often touted as the best advertising you can get, but in reality it's mostly crap, and too infinitesimal to bother with, especially for an item like a food product. As a marketing executive, is it not in your best interest to undermine types of advertising that you don't profit off of? Because if this kind of advertising was effective, I'd still expect a marketing executive to say the same thing about it's value. Also, look at the car salesman who says (and believes) his brand car out performs the other brands. Even though he believes it, it doesn't make it any easier to trust his judgement. He can't really even be expected to be objective, he's to entrenched in it. I'm not attacking, or anything. I apoligize in advance if it seems that way. I'm just saying, is all.
• The part I find objectionable is that they get the stuff for FREE (or at least that's the gist I get from the article). If you pony up your hard earned dollars to buy ChildLaborCorp's LandfillWidget, and you like it, then I take your recommendations quite seriously. But if you got it for free, then your basis for recommending ownership is completely different then mine. The only exception would be, of course, if you were trying to get me a free hookup. Otherwise, without full disclosure, you're just a cheap shill and not worth my time or effort (as you are probably much less entertaining then television, and your Wednesday Night lineup sucks). Most of my word-of-mouth discussions are price sensitive (I paid $20 for this basket of puppies, it's the best deal EVER!), or the hookup variety (This Porsche I got for free is sweet! Remind me tomorrow to tell Bill to rig the sweepstakes drawing so you can get one too!). And as for word-of-mouth and branding, I'm convinced that the best marketing of all is building the superior product.
• Cheap puppies? Free Porsches? Where do I sign?
• 1. I hate the deception about the motivation. Specifically, you deceive me when you do not reveal to me that you are being rewarded by a 3rd party. Seconded. This is why I find this aggravating and, say, Pampered Chef parties only mildly annoying. The mindless shilling is up-front then. Basically, the attempt at deception, no matter how feeble, insults my fragile intelligence. I don't like that.
• The part I find objectionable is that they get the stuff for FREE ... If you pony up your hard earned dollars to buy ChildLaborCorp's LandfillWidget, and you like it, then I take your recommendations quite seriously. Hmm. LarindaME, does this apply to reviews as well? Roger Ebert never surfs over to Fandango to buy movie tickets and I review CDs for a CD review web site that are sent to me by the marketers. I recommend some of them, too.
• As a marketing executive, is it not in your best interest to undermine types of advertising that you don't profit off of? Because if this kind of advertising was effective, I'd still expect a marketing executive to say the same thing about it's value. Not really. I market a certain, fairly rarified type of service. If Al Fresco sausage makes or doesn't make a profit, it doesn't affect me. I have competition, don't get me wrong, and I want to beat that competition - but I think the non-Marketing public :) hasgotten this idea that the markets are a zero-sum game, and that's just not the case. I devote a LOT of my efforts to generating new, first time clientele, and almost no time to stealing clients from my competitors. My professional interest in this case is mostly aacademic and somewhat for my colleagues who do market a product similar to Al Fresco, who might be swayed to try this sort of thing. Imagine that all the marketing techniques in the world are tools in a toolbox. Some tools build things, some cut things, some attach things to other things. If you want to make a fine, carved wood dresser, you don't use the sledgehammer, right? I see these articles as finding that tiny, nearly useless, off-size wrench in the bottom of the toolbox, holding it up and saying "Wow! Has anyone heard about the little off-sized wrench! Some guy in BFE says he used the little off-sized wrench and built a WHOLE HOUSE with it!" Oy. There's a aphorism that goes "No one's an easier sell than a salesman." The same goes for marketing. This job isn't easy, and it's not like we constantly win accolades from the public :) We are always and forever looking for a magic bullet, something that will make our jobs easier and more efficient, always looking for the next big thing. These articles work in two ways - they irritate the public ("Marketing people got my cousin Filbert to recommend this crappy potasto salad! Grrrr...") but what's more for marketers they play into that instinctual desire for a new, superduper housebuilding tool for the toolbox.