November 11, 2004

• That's what you get for being a compassionate conservative - beat-downs from delinquent democrats.
• It amazes me, with my unbelievable geekiness, that I was never beat-up in school.
• I saw this article earlier today and, at the time, was so relieved not to see it show up here in Monkeyland...ah well.. This had nothing to do with politics...It had nothing to do with right or left, blue or red, this was a bunch of immature, jerks looking for a new excuse to call each other names and try out the new bat.... Do we really need to talk about this...?
• Well, they're always referring to Democrats as "wimpy." Which, as I recall, is how George Bush's father was described while he was Pres....
• am i going to have to find more kittens for this thread? hmm?
• And, just for the fun of it, let me point out that, it is NOT baseball season in Minnesota...and this jerk had a bat in his car...tell ya anything? Let this discussion die a quick death, at least as far as the political piece of it goes.... Talk about wood vs. aluminium bats if you have to, that's the real story here. /apologizes for hitting political overload!
• I disagree with the overwhelming sentiment in this discussion so far, that this is not worth discussing. I think this story is important because it shows how deep the political divide is in the U.S. currently. 20 years ago there's no way this story would have happened -- just no way that teens would be using political affiliation to define one another. It would have been "you fucking punk!" "oh yeah? you faggot preppy!" or something like that. No, these kids' behavior did not arise out of their political differences, but the fact that they used political labels to "other-ize" each other speaks volumes.
• Too bad... They shoulda used a shotgun. Much more effective at eliminating those pesky Republican vermin.
• la la baseball puppy cuteness la la la
• And HuronBob, no, the fact that there was a bat in one kid's car doesn't tell me anything. There's a beach chair and sunblock in the back of my truck right now, as winter descends upon the U.S. Does that tell you anything?
• High school kids beat up another kid. No big deal. The fact that is was about politics (and yes, HuronBob, it was) makes it mildly newsworthy. But it doesn't mean anything.
• la la la bunnies in teacups la la la
• Maybe the real political story here is how easy it is to throw out the word "gay" or "fag" as an epithet and no matter what your political affiliation, it is usually taken as an insult. At least they agree on one thing. CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???
• The bunny on the right just called the bunny on the left a "teacup-sitting ear-flopper".
• Watch out, bunnies - here comes the kettle!! Hot cross bunnies!
• how deep the political divide is in the U.S. currently Both sides at the teen bully level and higher seem actually to agree. On the teen level, it's "only gays would support Sen. John Kerry" or the other side feeling like being called "gay" is such a deep insult it merits a beating. On the higher level, it's GOP politicians ready to write discrimination into the Constitution, and Democrats telling each other that daring to stand for the rights of a group of Americans cost them the election and probably ready to join with the majority when the amendment comes to a vote. If there really was a divide, one set of teens or the other would say "What's your problem? What if we are?" and walk away. One set of politicians would say "that's right, we stood up for human rights, what did you do?" and look forward to the next set of elections. So, not a divide at all as far as I can see. Would that there were one!
• It's like when they report that a man killed his wife because she burnt the pot roast. Fights always start over something incredibly stupid. The only thing newsworthy about this is that someone deemed it newsworthy.
• hawthonewingo- Your obvious cry for help tells me you may be planning the unthinkable. Don't do it man. Life's too precious to squander on such folly. Please, for the love of god, get that beach chair out of your car today.
• Hot cross bunny.
• Hawthonewingo...ok... I can discuss that. I'm sorry you have a beachchair in your car.... And, if you insist, let's not discuss the fact that the kid carried a bat in his car, let's talk about the fact that he was obviously a criminal psychopath (which is what anyone who takes a bat to another human is) and talk about the lack of mental health services.... The kids were jerks, all of them, they were raised poorly, not taught any manners, ethics, or compassion... And, evidently the political leaning was not a factor in this, they were all guilty to some extent. If we can agree on this, why do we need to talk about politics again... Damn media! I can just picture the scene at newspaper office: Editor: CLARK, get in here! We haven't fanned the flames of right/left hatred in over 6 hours, go find me a story about some left wing Beevis beating the crap out of a republican fundamentalist! We've got papers to SELL! Clark: But Chief, it's a week past the election! They are all tired of that stuff now. Editor: I'm not, Clark, and I'm in charge. And, after you're done with that, distribute some handguns at the local old folks home and start spreading rumors about health care... we'll have bloodshed by morning! Clark: But Chief... that guy in Paris died, or maybe died, and we're fighting in Iraqi, and the ice caps are melting.......... that's the real news.... Editor: Clark, do it, and do it now, or I start killing SideDish's kittens! Now..get out of here, and send Lois in....
• My puppies and kittens can beat up your puppies and kittens any day.
• Only gays would like puppies and kittens!
• God bless the queens!
• Are you saying that only gay kittens go to the beach? Huh?
• puppies - kittens - gays - straights - humans - republicans -we're all equal in God's mind. He wants us all dead.
• itsy-bitsy-teeny-weeny-beachie-kitty
• god kitty!
• In my usual fit of post-election anger, I was going to say This is a good start but really, it's not. Sounds like all those guys are idiots. On the other hand, if we can start throwing statements like Phil Gramm's "We're going to keep on building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs" back in their faces to prove that they're just as bad with the brown-shirt rhetoric as they claim we are, then maybe we can get somewhere.
• There's a beach chair and sunblock in the back of my truck right now, as winter descends upon the U.S. Does that tell you anything? You're an optimist? No, these kids' behavior did not arise out of their political differences, but the fact that they used political labels to "other-ize" each other speaks volumes. What are those volumes? That people look for excuses to fight people they don't like? That they look for whatever differences they can to provoke each other? That teenagers are angry and violent? OK, that mass of semi-rhetorical questions is really annoying, but I still think this doesn't really give any kind of great insight. What do you see here that's worth discussing, HW?
• hunting democrats with dogs. BWHAAAAAAAAAAA HAHAHA. heh.
• Teenagers act stupid. More on Obvious News at 11.
• "Gay" no longer means gay, to some elements of that generation (younger Monkeys, please bear with me). E.g., a transcript from any MMORPG: Dude, why r you carrying that lame +1 sword, it is so gay
• Obviously, gays are more prone to partisan violence.
• What are those volumes? That people look for excuses to fight people they don't like? That they look for whatever differences they can to provoke each other? That teenagers are angry and violent? Yes, yes, and yes. When I was in grade eight we used to fight the kids from the neighbouring Catholic school because...well...because they went to the Catholic school. They must be different. I didn't understand why, but I went along with it anyway. No bats, though... I'm sure if you did the proper search, you'd find cases of high school kids in Boston beating up a kid because he had a Yankees cap on, or in Montreal because a kid wore a Leafs jersey to school. Or jocks beating up the goth wierdos. Kids sometimes do rect violently to people who are different. I don't know why, but it does literally happen every day.
• Obviously, gays are more prone to partisan violence. Yeah, before I do any breeder-bashing I always ask for a voter card. Its only the polite thing to do.
• ...or in Montreal because a kid wore a Leafs jersey to school THIS JUST IN
• Only in Canada can a five minute major be turned into a children's book. You crazy Canucks!
• The first few lines of that book are written on the back of our five-dollar bill: The winters of my childhood were long, long seasons. We lived in three places-- the school, the church and the skating rink-- but our real life was on the skating rink
• meh, you don't find it at all interesting that U.S. teenagers are using political labels to confront one another? This hasn't been the case in at least a couple of generations. I don't see how you can deny the cultural significance here. And cultural significance is typically eminently discuss-able. For instance, we could discuss the depth and nature of the political divide in the U.S. Or we could discuss whose fault the divide is; at least one "thinker," for instance, blames it on the Democrats. Or we could discuss youth violence, and the tendency of teens to join cliques. See?
• There's a beach chair and sunblock in the back of my truck right now, as winter descends upon the U.S. Does that tell you anything? That global warming is a bitch.
• . . . or we could talk about the history of political violence in the U.S., and how we might be entering another period marked by political violence. You get the idea.
• blogRot=funny.
• There's a beach chair and sunblock in the back of my truck right now, as winter descends upon the U.S. Does that tell you anything? According to my mother, it says you are lazy. I choose to believe that your garage is full, or you are planning a trip to Florida in the near future. As for signifigance of a couple of kids wailing each other with baseball bats, I suppose this should be a good sign as they are no longer using guns to resolve their disputes.
• I see your point, HawthorneWingo, I just wonder if the idiocy of a set of obviously pea-brained teenage boys (oxymoron?) is indicative of a trend in anything beside the millenia-long series of pea-brained idiocies perpetrated by teenage boys.
• HW: Good points, but I think my argument is kind of moot by this point anyway, as for something supposedly so unworthy of discussion, this article has generated a lot of interesting discussion. I humbly withdraw my critique, and offer this sun tan lotion to add to your car collection.
• I'd like to be a bold Democrat and condemn this solidly as the sort of people we don't want to have in our party. But, y'know, I do kinda feel like a few Bush supporters getting the shit kicked out of them is turnabout, not trouble. Since lefties have been getting the shit beat out of them by jocks for eternity, well, I just hope they used wood, because aluminum is for pussies.
• Straight male seeks...
• Pay per view?
• Y'know.. if they were actually gay, they would've anally raped the bastard. After all, it's a scientific fact that all homosexuals are uncontrollable sexual deviants, driven solely by the impulse to insert their penises (optimally, by force) into the anuses of good, God-fearing folk.
• The 17-year-old was assaulted Bush supporters getting the shit kicked out of them is turnabout, not trouble. Huh? The teen's support means nothing because he did not vote, not old enough. So every child who says Bush should be beaten? Ok maybe wash their mouth out with a bar of soap.
• But, y'know, I do kinda feel like a few Bush supporters getting the shit kicked out of them is turnabout, not trouble. Since lefties have been getting the shit beat out of them by jocks for eternity... Jocks are not Republicans, and they don't beat up "lefties". And this kid getting beaten with a bat was not "turnabout" for anything. And if you think this kid in any way deserved this because he supports Bush, you are a sick fuck.
• js, your thinking is way wrong. "Jocks" come in every form - Kerry was a jock.
• waitingtoderail - are you trying to live up to your name? In your three days here, you've already come up with this post, which seems designed to start a fight, and another post down the page (http://monkeyfilter.com/link.php/5795), which is misleading at best. Luckily, the monkeys are friendly, and I've yet to see discussions turn ugly. Still, you might want to intersperse some fun flash games, or geek quizzes.
• whoops. here is the link to the other post
• Quite the opposite.
• Ahhh... Leave 'im alone... I don't think this thread is designed to start a fight, yentruoc.... However, if you want one... then you are teh gay! *goes to car, retrieves baseball bat* :)
• No, not meant to start trouble by any means - I voted for Kerry, volunteered on the campaign at the Boston HQ, and think that there are a lot of troubling issues raised about voting irregularities and the "red/blue" divide in this country. The points I've tried to make with my first few posts is that we can't automatically jump on our "opponents" - everything has to be taken into consideration. Not everything is what it seems on its face. In this case, I don't think this had anything to do with Democrat vs. Republican, rather to do with the bigotry against gays that is pretty much inherent in our society. The "Republican v. Democrat" was just a flashpoint for another issue. Oh and I'm sure I'll post plenty of interesting stuff, it's just this is what's interesting me now.
• Glad I was mistaken.
• Have a kitten.
• Believe it or not, I'm allergic to cats. This is more up my alley.
• Yes, Thomcat and Rocket, every child who says "Bush" should be beaten. Along with that straw man. And jocks don't beat up hippies? Hippies are pretty much by definition leftists, and if you don't think that patriotic "U-S-A! U-S-A!" types kick the shit out of them, and have been kicking the shit out of them for the last, say, 40 years, you're living in an alternate universe. So, hey, you wanna call me a sick fuck, fine. I'm gonna call you a retard. Feel free to respond when you have something a little bit more substantial.
• You know what I find interesting? The idea apparently expressed here that no-one under 18 is capable of having a political identity, regardless of whatever additional thuglike qualities they may possess. What's up with that? Having been political for years before the magical age of majority, and at the receiving end of a baseball bat to the head in the primordial jock/punk battle, I was not aware that teenage dickwads with bats negated my teenage political identity. Did I miss something? Because really, in that light, I should've retaliated by decapitating the fucker with a vinyl copy of Bedtime For Democracy Shaun-style, and walked away as a simple teenage ingrate with my impossible political integrity intact. Or something.
• this just in: it seems the president of Louisville Slugger's Minnesota operation is a staunch Republican. I am organizing an online petition for us all to sign calling for an immediate investigation into the possibility that the Republican kids in fact actually beat up the Democrats. (I keed, I keed, as Triumph would say)
• I didn't do it.
• js: I'm at least glad you recognized your own straw man. And jocks don't beat up hippies? Not that I know of, no. and if you don't think that patriotic "U-S-A! U-S-A!" types kick the shit out of them... How do you make the leap from jocks to "U-S-A" chanters? I guess the same way you equated jocks and bush supporters in your original comment. Jocks are athletes (unless you have a different definition), and have no political leanings as a group. In fact, most of the ones I know, inluding myself, are slightly left of center. Hang on to your illogical stereotypes if you want, but you still made the statement that this kid being beaten with a bat is "turnabout, not trouble", and that's just wrong, no matter what your politics or repressed hostility toward those big bad jocks.
• rocket88, I think that js is being simplistic (in fact, I know it; I'm a leftie with a long jock history), but I also think there's something to the jocks="U-S-A!"-chanters argument. Especially when you imagine the average jock's politics with those of other traditional cliques joined by teens. I don't think it's unreasonable to assert that jocks might end up more conservative than geeks, for instance, or punks, or hippies. I have no proof of this, but I don't think the assertion should be dismissed out of hand. Of course, js did let his/her "issues" vis-a-vis jocks get in the way of making that assertion in a more reasonable manner. [returns to applying sunscreen liberally; likes the coconutty aroma]
• p.s. to the meh: Thanks for the sunscreen. Is it coconutty-smelling?
• Some teenagers are idiots. Some jocks are idiots. Some Democrats are idiots. Some Republicans are idiots. And the rest are not. We're surprised? This is Earth. Welcome to it. Next?
• So, hey, you wanna call me a sick fuck, fine. I'm gonna call you a retard. Feel free to respond when you have something a little bit more substantial" huh? You've call yourself that, I only pointed out Kerry is the jock between Bush & him, yet Kerry was a hippie too. ymmv
• Nice one, thomcatspike.
• Rocket: Jocks lean left? Wow, that must have been someone else beating up hippies from the '60s through today. And boy, that'd mean there'd be an equal representationof jocks in office, wouldn't it? That'd mean that there'd be equal endorsements by jocks, wouldn't it? I know who Curt Shilling and Bo Shembeckler voted for. Athletes, especially football players, have leaned conservative for a long time. Your own politics nonwithstanding. And when there are equal numbers of posts about everyone being beaten with bats, then I'll decry the violence. Until then, this is news precicely because it is rare. And that means that its not a trend and it's not trouble. It's just some kids beating up other kids.
• Somebody's bad experiences in high school make a pretty wobbly base for a moral code.
• Some teenagers are idiots. Some jocks are idiots. Some Democrats are idiots. Some Republicans are idiots. And the rest are not. We're surprised? This is Earth. Welcome to it. Next? This is one kind of post that really chaps my hide. I'm sure you're a nice person and all that, Wurwilf (really, I assume the best), but this is condescending as all get-out. Some people are having a vigorous discussion about something, then you come along and basically tell them their discussion is worthless. Next time, keep it to yourself.
• Hawthorne, how about enjoying a hot steaming cup of Shut The Fuck Up Bitch yourself before telling somebody else to shut up.
• fluffy bunnies for everyone!
• Wow, goetter, what did I do to deserve your love? Grow up. I was reasonable. Wurwilf was being, in essence, a troll. I told Wurwilf what I thought about being told that my conversation was worthless. I didn't stoop to calling names; I was rational. I presented a real argument: That it's rude for someone to enter other folks' conversation and tell them, in effect, that what they think is worthless. You, on the other hand, broke all the rules of civil discourse. So I have no problem telling you to shove your head up your ass. Moron.
• (God damn "post" button. I retract that last paragraph. My point is strong enough without the name-calling, and for all I know you're just having a bad day, goetter. Sorry.)
• Wurwilf was being, in essence, a troll. No, she wasn't. She disagrees with you, period. That word gets thrown around waaaaaaay too much here.
• Fair enough, middleclasstool. I was using the term to describe entering a conversation you're not involved in and demeaningly dismissing it. If I misused the term, my bad. Doesn't change the point of my post, though.
• I really wish people would stop calling "troll" - it's Godwin all over again. And how can you "enter a conversation you're not involved in" in a place like this? It's a communal space and everyone has the right to get involved. There's no excuse for what you said. Wurwilf's opinion is as valid as anyone's and it's not for you to say otherwise. I think that's the biggest problem with any of these political threads.
• I hear you, tracicle, but if all you do when you get involved in an already in progress conversation is say, "this conversation you're having is worthless," that's condescending. None of us like being condescended to. That's what I was reacting to. I do not in any way want to keep anyone from stating his/her mind. So, my apologies to you, and my apologies to Wurwilf. Also, I will not use the word "troll" again; I obviously don't understand the meaning of the word. But I reserve my right to call out condescension. And can't you see in any way how my telling Wurwilf to, in so many words, "shut up," was in response to an implied "shut up" from her?
• btw I think the political threads are often awesome, and I think a decent chunk of your membership is more interested in political debate than in stuff like quirky links from around the Web. (Note: I am NOT putting down quirky links or the people who post them!)
• p.s. what's "Godwin"?
• Godwin's Law: As a discussion on an online forum grows longer, the probability of a reference to Hitler or the Nazis approaches one. The longer the thread, the higher the probability. Wikipedia has a good entry on it.
• I'll check it out, middleclasstool (my guide to online forum knowledge, it's turning out). Thanks.
• I was reasonable You were not. You said, I own this space. You go away. I merely recapitulated your statement without the nicey-nicey. Yes, I was an asshole. No, you certainly did not deserve that. Neither did Wurwilf. response to an implied "shut up" from her "Implied" is a weasel word. She said no such thing. I don't think that she meant such a thing, either.
• Jeez, I certainly didn't mean to start any rancor....
• goetter: 1. You don't think Wurwilf's comment was condescending and dismissive of others who might actually have something to say in response to the link in this FPP? If not, I urge you to reread the entire thread. Plenty of folks had plenty to say. Wurwilf chose to dismiss the validity of all their comments. I got pissed off as a result. I have apologized to Wurwilf for my "I own this space" attitude (sorry, Wurwilf), but I don't think the assignation of blame here is quite as cut and dried as you do. I'm not "wrong" in this matter just because you say I am. At the same time, I willingly cop to what I did do wrong. 2. "Implied" is a weasel word? That's a cop-out in my book. You say something, you have to deal with the consequences in terms of what other people think, whether what you said is direct (like your initial comment to me) or passive-aggressive (like Wurwilf's comment). (Read her words again: This is Earth. Welcome to it. Next? If you don't hear the "your concerns are worthless" attitude in that statement, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.) 3. Thanks for the apology (even if we are still a bit revved up in our discourse, we're trying to be civil, which I trust we both agree is a good thing).
• So anyway, I hear the weather's real nice. And how about that local sports team?
• tracicle, your local sports team sucks. Mine rules. Anyone can see that. It's simply The Truth. =)
• Hey, I think we're doing a good job of working through our differences. Way to encourage us!
• Or maybe the correct response is more along the lines of "whatever." Listen, different people have different interests. Don't let that bother you.
• I hear the weather's real nice. Not here, Mr. Cold Front beat up Mr. Sunshine, the warm weather lover.
• Actually, I do think you all came a long way back from where you were. Very nice indeed.
• Jeez Louise, do you have to be on lithium to join MoFi? You should have said so upfront! (It's a joke. I'm trying to be light-hearted. Being flamed doesn't help.)
• Thanks, Itchy.
• HawthorneWingo: I'll add it to the signup page: scanned copy of lithium prescription required before first posting priviledges are granted. :)
• Thanks, tracicle. I'm coming from a good place, ultimately, even if I do like to argue.
• I saw 28 new comments on this thread and my initial thought was "oh shit, what train wreck is going on in there?". Glad it's settled down. js: I've honestly never heard of jocks beating up hippies...ever. Jocks beating up nerds?...sure. Cops beating up hippies...yeah, of course. I guess it was different in your neck of the woods. And your linked article confirmed my suspicion - that professional athletes lean right mainly because they're millionaires and want lower taxes. I think high school jocks are apolitical. All of which is pretty moot to the original issue, since none of the kids involved in the beating (on either side) were identified as jocks. I still say that when a kid is beaten - with a weapon - by a group (i.e. outnumbered by cowards who would never confront him one-on-one) it's reprehensible...no matter what the victim's politics are. You seem to disagree, so we'll just leave it at that.
• HawthorneWingo: Stop
• chumping my style
• of multiple, successive comments, please.
• Sorry, Richer. I need to hold off before hitting "post" until I'm sure my thoughts are finished. I know it's annoying, and I promise to try harder.
• I'll also use preview to see if new posts have come up while I'm composing. Promise. This is the last time. At least, I'll strive for perfection. Promise. Don't want to annoy. Really. Promise. (The joke I'm making here is on myself, in case it's not obvious.)
• Also, Richer, I just checked out your elephant/dickhead FPP link. Priceless. I like you already. Okay, I'm stopping. Starting . . . NOW.