November 03, 2004

• First off, I voted for Bush (but in Illinois). Let me just say: this isn't over by a long shot. As of right now, CBS News says the difference in OH is about 100,000 votes. That's about 2%. People who go to bed confident in either a win or a defeat are fools. This election will be decided in the courts.
• Yeah, Matt Drudge is shit, it's true. This election will be decided in the courts. Depressing thought.
• It may still go to Kerr tonight. Look at the breakdowns for Lucas and Cuyahoga counties, which still have outstanding precints. There are 200,000 votes right there.
• SATELLITE OFFFFF LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111
• WOOHOO! Assuming, of course, that the headline remains the same and President Bush is re-elected.
• WASHINGTON, Nov. 2 (UPI) -- White House sources are telling UPI that they believe George W. Bush will win Ohio and be re-elected president of the United States. You mean, "no shit?" Like a White House source would ever believe Kerry could win? Drudge is a party hack.
• Expect some of the loudest celebrations to be coming from Fallujah. RSN.
• Shit doesn't even begin to cover it. *cries*
• Every vote for bush is a vote for torture. Plain and simple. Congratulations america. In order to be morally justified in supporting a war, one must be willing to kill and be killed in that war. Davidmsc: go kill some people. Maybe you'll get to do some officially sactioned Testicle electrocution.
• He raped me in the chalet lines It was a party, it was going fine With the boys from the amusement park A few were idiots, they were a really good laugh They had the shows on till way after dark I hope she'll give me a place Full of woe and further to go (in my drunken state this is completely relevenat. tomorrow probably not so much.) In other news, *sobs*.
• My understanding is that this election isn't over yet . What am I missing here?
• "We will fight, and we will count EVERY vote." - John Edwards, Kerry/Edwards non-concession speech, 2:30am in Boston. Good, b/c otherwise I'll have to finally admit that mine is a racist, ignorant, white trash piece of shit country. "I'm voting for Bush because you can trust him more than Kerry." Jesus Fucking Holy Mary Mother of God Christ. Union members, voting for Bush and his tax cuts for the rich. "He won't take away our guns." Evangelicals, able to convince themselves that Bush is Christian -- have they never read the Sermon on the Mount? Science? We don't need no stinking science! Fucking moron country, you have never disappointed me or disgusted me so. I'm only saying so because I love the stupid fucking place so much.
• Unless the talking heads are wrong, of course. Still, it's depressing to think of the divide between Red and Blue in the U.S. How do you bridge such an enormous gap?
• Can there possibly be 120,000 provisional votes for Kerry in OH? Dont think so, but somehow I'm glad Bush may win, but it wont be tonight.
• HawthorneWingo On an optimistic note...it is important to not get caught up in the "first past the post red state/blue state fallacy". Remember that many "red states" had >45% of their votes cast for Kerry....
• HawthorneWingo On an optimistic note...it is important to not get caught up in the "first past the post red state/blue state fallacy". Remember that many "red states" had >45% of their votes cast for Kerry....
• Thanks, counter.
• I dont think we do bridge the divide. We live in an incredibly diverse country. But we only pick one president for all of us.
• But Republicans will control both houses of the Congress and the executive and the SCOTUS, maybe the latter by an even greater margin in the years ahead. There is no gap anymore. The Dems lost everything, if these results hold. Again.
• Did you read the Eisenhower speech, from when he left the presidency? It was an FPP on MoFi on maybe Sunday. We CAN bridge the divide. It's been done before. Reasonable people can think reasonably together, on balance. Otherwise, it's just more and more bile and gridlock, as the American Empire grinds over the coming decades to an ignominious . . . stop.
• As far as the Dems having lost everything, and the future being naught but blackness, I've been doing a fair bit of rationalizing tonight, and I've come up with the theory that Bush's second term will be analogous to Nixon's second term. I.e. all the bad shit will come home to roost. The neo-con philosophy has to be discredited at some point (on a first grade reading level, of course, so the populace can understand what's going on). It just has to.
• freen:Davidmsc: go kill some people. At the risk of offending your delicate sensibilities, freen, SCREW YOU. Oh, wait, on second thought perhaps I will kill some people, seeing as how I've been wearing the uniform of the US Air Force for 17 years now. Gonna accuse me of killing babies, too?
• Freen, apologize to the man. You said some stupid shit.
• Bridging the gap is probably more important to me right now then who actually wins the election. Whoever wins at the moment, will have a limited set of options and a pretty divided country (again). And while I understand that important issues tend to stir passions on both sides, there has to be a better way then our current method of deadlock and yell at each other. The brain drain (ie: former immigrants returning to their home country because opportunities are better there), peak oil (believe it or not, the days of cheap oil really do seem behind us, if only because demand is ramping up so much in places like China), Iraq (do we pull out and let it go all to hell, or do we pour in as many bodies as we can to try and tame Viet-raq), corporate malfeasance (every time Spitzer ... spits, frankly, he hits billion dollar white collar crime), Osama, that thing we used to call an economy, Hello Kitty, skyrocketing health insurance, that whole Social Security/Medicare financial time bomb, etc, etc.; these are things we need to solve at least with some civility, together. To answer your question, HawthorneWingo, perhaps the first step is to be more judicious in what you say in your first comment. Except, of course, if you are posting in MetFilter, in which case I'd congratulate you on your self-restraint
• LarimdaME, of course you're right. Give me just my five minutes with my burst of anger, though, okay? I'm wanting to beat the shit out of half the country at the same time as I'm wanting to understand it and have it understand me. It's not a straightforward process.
• Bush's second term will be analogous to Nixon's second term. Except Bush has a solid Republican majority in both houses of Congress, and investigative journalism is dead.
• Plus, I'm truly flabbergasted by how so much of the country could willfully ignore so much Bush administration crap. Really. "I'm voting for Bush because he's trustworthy."
• Except Bush has a solid Republican majority in both houses of Congress, and investigative journalism is dead. Damn you, dirigibleman. Damn you straight to hell.
• I think before anyone concedes defeat or claims victory, we need to keep these facts in mind: Bush and his neocons have alienated not only the rest of the world and democrats here in this country, they have also alienated their own republicans in their own party. Stories are legion in the media now of republican re-election members refusing to take part, and when you see 'The`American Conservative' endorsing Kerry, 'the other guy', you know it's bad for them. There is also indications that those conservatives that have been alienated have every intention of blocking Bushco just as strongly as democrats will do so in the house and senate after the election. The bottom line is this: enough is enough. The neocons are running this country,it's economy and it's people into the ground, everyone knows it and everyone is really and truly tired of it. If anyone thinks this election is going to be decided tonight for either side, I think they need to take a good hard look at reality. Reality is this: This country is struggling to maintain and keep it's democracy. Resolving that issue is not something that will be decided in one night. It's going to take awhile.
• HawthorneWingo About the dealing with anger and understanding? Totally with ya. And davidmsc? Please. Don't. The US Air Force has killed ALOT of people in the last year. Nobody needs you adding to the bodycount. Please chill and realize that some are very upset about the current results and thus prone to strong statements. And now, to bed. I gotta work tomorrow!
• Bush and his neocons have alienated not only the rest of the world and democrats here in this country, they have also alienated their own republicans in their own party. I know, I know! But then how can it be so close that it looks like Bush is going to win? That's what's provoking such an extreme reaction, in me at least. Okay, I'm done. Thanks for putting up with my spewing emotion for a bit there. Chin up. Carry on.
• I'm glad Soviet Russia isn't the bad guy anymore. At least that way, we can only suffer, at most, a couple of thermonuclear explosions versus thousands upon thousands of them. Because I think that's where we're headed, now that the U.S. is snookered on Iran and North Korea. Giving Bush another four years will only make things worse. A couple of friends and I have been wondering how, considering everything we've seen in the past four years, the election could not only be so close, but be in favour of Bush. Maybe it's because we're urban Canadians, but it didn't seem like we were so far apart from Americans. But we can't understand what's going on in the heads of the 55 million people who cast a vote for George W. Bush yesterday. It boggles our minds that every single vote on same-sex marriage bans passed by fairly wide margins. Someone on CNN just talked about the deomcrat sense of dismay and bewilderment, the sense of feeling helpless. That's a good way to sum up how I feel as well. Tomorrow I'll wake up, and really I suppose the world won't feel much different from the night before. But in some real sense, the world will have taken a turn for the worse. I'm not so much afraid of what I imagine will come in the next four years as much as I am afraid of what I can't imagine.
• It is not over.
• davidmsc, if you don't want to be called a killer, perhaps you shouldn't have taken up a career in the millitary? In the Air Force, no less!
• Hawthorne Wingo: thank you. I think you & I have disagreed on things here before - strongly - but I appreciate your support re: freen. And rodgerd: I never said that I didn't want to be called a killer. I was merely pissed off that freen thinks that anyone who supports Bush is some sort of psychotic machine-gun wielding maniac who takes joy in brutal murder. And in case anyone is wondering, I don't fly planes, I don't drop bombs, and I don't carry a weapon in my duty. The military has many support personnel who find it honorable to serve and prepare the front-line troops for combat.
• I don't know how many I speak for, but I respect someone who chooses to serve their country (UK troops etc in my case), but I despise the war they have been sent to fight at the moment. I think people are angry with Bush's rush to war, the fact that (it seems) most Americans haven't noticed and are giving him a second go, not with an individuals decision to join the armed forces.
• As I write Bush is only 2 electoral college votes ahead with 3 states still to declare and Ohio too close to call - so no, it ain't over yet ... But it looks bad if you are fundamentally against Bush. Which I am. But as mk1gti said above - it seems reasonable to postulate that the neocons are gonna have to deal with the rest of the world sometime soon, and out here the anti-bush feeling is in the majority. Im wonder whether the attention will now shift the the UK and our upcoming general election. Of course labour and Tony Blair will win that, it will take a psephological shift of unhear proportions for his majority to be overturned, but it will be intresting to se ehow many votes he loses and how much Iraq affects him and I suspect he's less weded to it that Bush is. And what hawthornewingo said - if the neocons push America too far, the country will eventually swing back. I just hope it doesn't hurt. On preview. What kitfisto said.
• Dear American Democrats, The pain from Labour's defeat in the 1992 election still burns in my consciousness; like this, an election we could have, would have, should have won. Based on our experiences then, now is not the time for bitter recrimination and in-fighting; that's tomorrow. Today is despondent excuse day. May I suggest: 1) "New Hampshire only has how many Electoral College votes? What? This guy I met swore that it was worth, like, 25 or something." 2) "No fair - the Republicans didn't tell us they were registering new voters too." 3) "We should never have allowed the word 'trend' to be used as a verb." 4) "Candidate's face looked like one of those freaky Easter Island statues." 5) "Republican failure to sufficiently intimidate our voters made them seem like really nice guys, won them lots of votes." 6) "None of our guys had a lesbian daughter." 7) "We did really well across the country, except for the bits more than 75 miles away from the coast." 8) "Not enough tits and ass in Fahrenheit 9/11." 9) "We're a pathetic bunch of win-nothing losers who couldn't beat a child-molesting orang-utan running on a slogan of 'You're all fuckwits'." Soon, it will be time to take stock, and move on, just as Labour did in 1992. May I recommend going into the next election with your candidate being an insincere, vacuous, crypto-Thatcherite in thrall to the rich, full of empty promises and with a dangerous messiah complex? It worked wonders for us. PLEASE NOTE: Please ignore the above if miracle occurs and Ohio goes to Kerry. Hmmmm.
• O fucking goddam.
• 4 more wars! 4 more wars!
• 4 more wars! 4 more wars! May you please be wrong, chrid.
• sun's rising on a choppy glare rain dropping acid bought up in the air a distorted reality's now a necessity to be free so disappointing first i put it all down to luck but god knows why my country don't give a fuck shine on me baby cause it's rainin' in my heart shine on me baby cause it's rainin' in my heart
• Just a bitter, bitter joke, my friend Wolof.
• There really isn't any point in discussing this any longer. The outcome is pretty clear at this point. If you live in the US, you might want to start looking for an alternative place to park your butt! Keep in mind that there will be a LOT of people looking for a place to relocate to, there will be a rush for the door! I don't believe that the world will tolerate Bush's behavior for another 4 years, and I don't blame them. And, no matter how arrogant Bush is, he is NOT more powerful than the rest of the world. Time to get out of the kitchen, folks, the heat is about to be turned WAY up.
• At the risk of oversimplifying, I think that the Republicans have figured out how to use religion and some social issues to capture the vote of poor, rural America. It is my understanding that the Democrats used to control that vote. The Democrats either do not know how or do not want to compete for the religious vote. As a very strong liberal, I can tell you that I do not want to compete for the religious vote. However, without it, I do not feel that the Democrats can win. The Administration has actually gone with an official policy of not admitting any mistakes or acknowledging any weaknesses. They feel that such honesty or self-evaluation makes them look week. They saw how "I feel you pain" was able to be used to make Clinton look weak. Here in North Carolina, I watched Erskine Bowles lose a 20 point lead to Richard Burr for US Senate over the last few weeks once Burr started running ads showing Bowles with Clinton. Burr's ads would say something to the effect of "Richard Burr has traditional North Carolina values, not Clinton values." He won handily last night. Last night our country's government moved considerably to the right. I do not see that ending anytime soon.
• Kind of feeling a little down today. You know that glumness you feel when the gates of hell have just opened? Yup.
• Human beings! What stupidity. What blind, cruel stupidity. Back to the 19th century (again) for the US! War, repression, economic chaos & social intolerance! Lets all drink a toast to atavism! Backwards. A huge step backwards. Why? Why so stupid? There will never be peace and there will never be tolerance. Just pipe dreams. Face it. If it couldn't be achieved now, facing such a crew as these repugnant monsters, so obvious in their mendacity & corruption, then it never will be. Evil might as well be worn openly, for all that it seems to matter. And these blundering oafs who have barely broken back into office, will go on being incompetent, abusing power, lusting wealth, and wasting lives. And the lives will be American. Good thing too! Let's hope it's the stupid ones. It'll be easy to find them, they're roughly half the population. The joke is, America is the human race writ large. We're all exactly the fucking same, and that's the real kick in the guts. Well, that's it for me, I'm not with you any more. You can go on, alone. I'll sit back and watch, bitter, angry that this race I was born into is such a wretched bunch, all, everywhere, just the same yet hating one another as strangers. I'll carry on wasting my time until it's my day to shuffle off, and I'll be glad of it, and not waste a care, cos not a single soul is worth such heartache. Death. Death to the whole human race. Let's be erased. Nothing worthy here. We shame the apes with our monstrous ignorance and blundering superstition. Fuck you all. Fuck you all. Death to the whole fucking lot of you, and me as well, cos I'm no bloody different. The masses, each generation the same, drooling maws gaping, arms stretched up to the bloated, bloviating face of some new ranting alpha male, repeating again and again through history without sense or purpose or self-awareness. Not a glimmer of realisation. A boot stamping on a human face, upon the earth, upon the living things, upon everything in contempt of all nature, that is what we are; that's the meaning of today's events. This decides my fate, and yours. Madness and terror. Let it reign. Bring it on. Go fuck yourselves. Major league assholes. Death, death, kill, kill, hate, hate. My mind a searchlight of white intense contempt spewing out over everything. Come cloud my consciousness in sweet nectar, opium, alcohol, madness. I can't endure this purgatory sane-sober.
• HuronBob: Why leave when we can stay in the metaphorical kitchen and change the food and cause bother? If one leaves, that means the evangelical-extrene-right-wing side wins. I'm not leaving until they start marking the non-Christians or handing out the red veils. Hell, I was hoping to see Richard Cheese perform in Vegas, but he said he isn't going to perform in any state Bush won if Bush won. Goddamn.
• Let's hope Clockwork Orange Pendek isn't exercising his right to carry massivly over-powerful assault rifles today...
• HA HA HA....I suppose America deserves this. What better way to destroy it but from the inside out? Bush's win is something mindboggling, but it is not unexpected. You see, this morning in NPR they were talking about what issues are of most importance to voters...that red belt, right down the middle of America made "Moral Values" it's most important issue for voting, whereas the blue states in the edges made "Iraq and Economy" the #1. Issue...what does that tell you? that we have a bunch of ignorant fucks in the middle of nowhere US that were foolish enough to think that a bible, and a deceptive leader would save them... Let's see how your moral values stack up against an ever scalating external debt, war and terrorism (which by the way, if it happens again, it probably won't happen in one of you farms towns, or columbus OH or whatever, it'll happen in one of the Blue states)... SO FUCK YOU! anyone who voted for Bush is a idiot, and 4 years from now they'll know why...
• Man goes beyond his own decision Gets caught up in the mechanism Of swindlers who act like kings And brokers who break everything The dark of night was swiftly fading Close to the dawn of day Why would I want him just to lose him again We'll rise above the scarlet tide That trickles down through the mountain And separates the widow from the bride
• America has jumped the shark.
• SO FUCK YOU! anyone who voted for Bush is a idiot, and 4 years from now they'll know why... If this is what it takes to be on your side, I'll take my chances with Bush. Everyone's behaviour here is reprehensible. davidmsc: Sorry you've had to endure the elevated "killer in uniform" accusations here. Strong emotions or not, it's no cause to throw that bile around. The next four years will be hell, not just for Democrats and liberals, but for conservatives and Republicans as well. After all, someone's going to have to endure the mountain of bitching that has already been flowing like the sewers of NYC. middleclasstool: Alisson Krauss rocks!
• I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Democracy just doesn't work. --Kent Brockman
• Warrior: I agree with you, but Columbus is actually a nice town that tends to vote blue, given that OSU is there. I have an aunt and uncle there, and I'm certain they voted for Kerry. If you want a scary red town in Ohio, think Cincinnati.
• Davidmsc: Nope, not baby killer. No evidence of widespread administration approved baby killing. Torturer? Well, now that the party that condones torture controls or will control all three branches of government, quite possibly. Or, as i see from your comments, non-violent torture facilitator. On a side note, your military status does allow you to morally support military intervention. Good on you. Most people who support a war would never dare fight in it nor have any of their loved ones do the same. The military, however, are killers in uniform. That is what they do. Kill people. Really really well. Maybe not you personally, but then again, is the guy making sure everybody has enough ammo to kill people really all that much different from the guy actually doing the killing? Our army is better than just about any army in the world, with the possible exception of Sadr's army these days. Never deny who you are. In the past, i.e. The first gulf war, and in Afghanistan, Kosovo, etc. I have been mighty glad that the military is so good at what it does. However, as the NRA has always said, it's not the guns who kill people, it's people who kill people. It's not the military that has created such a clusterfuck, it's the people who have horrendously misused the awesome power of the military. The people who made the above linked memo attempting to justify the use of torture. Anyone who voted for bush has voted for this. Plain and simple. The days of don't talk politics and religion are over for me. The days when you'd get a free pass 'cus i didn't want to hurt poor Davidmsc's sensibilities are over. You support republicans, you are a bigot and a person who tacitly approve of torture. Full stop.
• The military, however, are killers in uniform. That is what they do. Kill people. They also defend your ass, Freen, so you can say what you want. The military isn't to blame for your current anger; politicians and the half of America that voted for Bush are. And yes, saying "if you drive a car then you are a bigot and a person who tacitly approves of torture" IS analogous to making the blanket statement that "if you support republicans you are a bigot and a person who tacitly approves of torture."
• "They also defend your ass.." Against what? I MEAN AGAINST WHAT???? Name one thing that the military have effectively defended the ordinary everyday person 'against'. Not hypothetical, actual real threats? *lately*. They didn't do fuck all on 9-11, and Iraq don't count. Neither does WW2 cos you weren't invaded. Again, Pearl Harbor was a washout, and anyway doesn't count, cos it was the military got attacked, not civilians. They don't defend Freen's ass against anything. The only thing they are good for is attacking other countries. He's absolutely right, they are killers in uniform. This is a statement of fact, spin it how you want. Strip it of ethical polarity, it is basically true. The USA doesn't need a fucking army, you have nukes. Who the fuck would invade when you have nuclear deterrent and missiles and shit to zap their country or their invasion fleet? Who would invade, anyway? The cubans?
• Are you serious?

• They also defend your ass, Freen

  Well, perhaps it's different in the States, but here in New Zealand the main defence against foreign threats have been the conscript armies we sent to fight the Japanese, rather than our professional soldiers. (We had rather a lot of help from the conscript armies of the United States, too, and don't think it's been forgotten). Professional soldiers accept money to kill people. One can see it as a necessary evil, but it's hard to make that argument about armed services that have a record of staging invasions of other countries.

• And rodgerd: I never said that I didn't want to be called a killer. I was merely pissed off that freen thinks that anyone who supports Bush is some sort of psychotic machine-gun wielding maniac who takes joy in brutal murder.

  And a very reasonable thing to be pissed off about, too. Mindless taking of sides and demonisation of people rarely ends well for anyone concerned.

  And in case anyone is wondering, I don't fly planes, I don't drop bombs, and I don't carry a weapon in my duty. The military has many support personnel who find it honorable to serve and prepare the front-line troops for combat.

  Hmm. I'm afraid I have a hard time feeling that it's a vast moral difference to drop the cluster bombs versus loading them, as it were. (Part of my perhaps somewhat intransigent attitude on this comes, I admit from the fact I know someone who's off to join the French Foreign Legion because he feels bored and directionless. If he wants to risk his life for excitement, fine; I can olnly consider his willingness to go kill people morally reprehensible. The other part stems from the fact that so many armies, while portrayed as defence forces, are nothing of the sort. Joining the Swiss army and deterring Nazis is one thing. Joining a millitary with a long and dishonourable tradition of initiating war is another).
• surely the u.s. military is the republican equivalent of welfare programs? i mean, the democrats want to subsidize schools and colleges and child healthcare and namby-pamby stuff whereas the republicans want to subsidize guns and enormous standing armies and big boats and nice planes and macho stone cold killer stuff? but at the end of the day it's still government-funded welfare programs. fucked if i can see a real difference.
• surely the u.s. military is the republican equivalent of welfare programs? And guess who makes up the bulk of the volunteer army. Good point.
• HawthornWingo: We are essentially in agreement. Except with the car analogy. Cars are not socio-political beleif systems that can actualize policy. I, however look forward to the day when there is a Sentient Vehicular Freedom Party with glee. Let me make an analogy: If you supported the Afrikaneer Broderbund in South Africa you were racist. If you support the NRA, you support the right to bear arms. If you support the Green Party, you are more concerned with the welfare of the environment than with the welfare of major corporations. Are any of these statements problematic? Granted, we are dealing with Venn diagrams of populations. Maybe there is a non-racist in the borderbund, but as an overall descriptive statement? Politicians have made piss poor descisions. Morally debased desicions, and the military does it's duty to obey the politicians. I have a problem with those that obey immoral orders, with those politicians that give immoral orders, and those that vote for those politicians. All are equally morally implicated. The army hasn't defended my ass from anything in quite a long time. They have however, fought just wars, which I, if I had been of age to fight in them would have gladly fought in. The republicans condone torture. Full Stop. They are Bigots.
• Freen, when you say that military personnel are essentially killers, you lose any sympathy I might have for an argument that our ways of thinking are similar. Do you think the U.S. would be the U.S. -- that the Constitution would have any sway at all over our lives -- without a standing army? If you do, then you don't understand human nature. Meanwhile, the fact remains that for the U.S. to have a non-Right-fascist future, it's likely that moderate Republicans -- yes, including those who voted for Bush in 2004 -- will have to be made somehow to turn against Bush and DeLay's pseudotheocratic, neo-conservative version of the Republican Party. And calling all Republicans bigots and torture-condoners will in no way help in that effort. You can espouse revolution and civil war if you want (which is pretty much the only option your thinking realistically leads to), but I think there are a lot of options that should -- nay, MUST -- be exhausted first. Otherwise the left will have as much blood on its hands, morally, as the right does today. A quick question: Who's going to be the arbiter in your moral universe? You? Oh, and those oil companies that extract the petroleum that makes your car run? They support Bush, and they support American hegemony in oil-producing regions of the world, and they're involved in corruption and economic exploitation and violence around the world. By purchasing gasoline, you are increasing their profits, meaning you're increasing the amount of money going to Bush et. al. Morally, you support corruption and economic exploitation and violence around the world, including the latest American foray into the Middle East. See the way your logic works? Unless you've left the grid and moved to a shack in the woods, you can't make your argument without being a hypocrite. Note: None of this is personal, Freen. So please don't take it that way.
• A quick question: Who's going to be the arbiter in your moral universe? You? No, God. He speaks directly to a little over 50% of the voting population. And besides, the left has the same amount of blood on its hands as the right. All Americans share this mess equally. A Democrat is a Republican today.
• And a Green is . . . outside, banging on the door, trying to get in. Imagine the U.S. with a thriving Republican/God Party, a thriving Conservative Party, a thriving Libertarian Party, a thriving Democratic Party, a thriving Labor Party, a thriving Green Party. There'd be a lot less chance for the mess we've got now -- half a country imposing its philosophy on another half that thinks the first half is fucked (which is what we've had for 15 years now regardless of who's been in power). More voices would be heard. How to get there, though?
• HawthorneWingo: Do not delude yourself. The military are professional killers. That is what they do. Ask a military person. What do you think they are? Professional florists? The military has allowed us to live the lives we have, they have fought for it, by killing other people. As Patton once said "The idea gentelmen, is not that you give up your life for your contry, but that the enemy gives up his life for your country." The military kills the people the politicians tell them they should. Hence highly immoral, free fire zones in Vietnam, that were politically mandated, and horrendous war crimes. Hence the politically mandated torture in Abu Ghraib. However, those in the military do not have to follow immoral orders. they can choose not to. They would definitely suffer the consequences, and possibly be killed, but they have the choice. I hold them responsible, but, then again, if i was given the choice of either being killed for not following an immoral order, or following an immoral order, I'm not quite so sure what I would do. Thankfully I've never been in such a position. Yes I am the ultimate moral arbitor for my life, and yes, i haven't driven a car in over 5 years, nor been in a car in slightly less. I do not live off the grid, but i do use renewable energy as opposed to oil or natural gas based energy. Here in NYC you have the option to pay more for better energy. I don't see movies or buy music because I don't like the way the MPAA and the RIAA are attempting to limit my freedoms. I don't buy coke or pepsi, nor do i use citybank or fleet or whatever, my local credit union is good enough for me. I don't want this to sound like a "look at the socially conscious consumer! yay!!!" thingy, but you asked me about driving a car and supporting repressive theocratic regimes. well, I don't. I am responsible for the moral outcomes of my actions, to the degree to which i know and understand the outcomes of my actions, and to the degree to which i intend those outcomes. Any action which, by clear intent supports torture, or bigotry, is wrong. Every human being is responsible for their own lives, their own morality, and their own cosequences. Deontological morality based on books written a thousand years ago and popular tradition is placing your greatest personal choices in the hands of charismatic megalomaniacal psychotics and those who are drawn to the comfort such fantasy based worldviews provide. See the republicans won because they said the democrats would kill babies, allow men to marry men, and marry dogs, and perhaps marry turtles, and that we would ban the bible, and that we'd allow the United States to be bombed by terrorists. That's how they won. All we had in response was "Nuh-uh, were are not going to do that, and george bush is bad." Well, i've had enouigh of that bullshit. Kid gloves are off. I'm going to call a spade a spade. those that support the republican party support bigots and torturers. I don't espouse revolution at all, expect for peacefull, vote oriented revolutions. The problem with your pleathora of political parties is that the current electoral system is highly skewed towards a two party system. Unless we radically change how people get elected, not much is going to change. Fuyugare, true, everybody has blood on their hands. the question is, who is the bloodiest, and who is likely to make things bloodier?
• Believe what you want, Freen. When you called davidmsc a baby killer, you marked yourself as an ideologue, not an idealist, and in so doing showed yourself to be potentially as dangerous as the Bush crew. I'm as liberal as they come, but I can call a spade a spade, too.
• This entire thread is a testament to everything I despise about politics. Howard Dean briefly brought me back, but now... now I don't know what I'll do - but I weep for our country its seemingly endless divisions.
• I'm sorry, Space Kitty.
• It's ok HawthorneWingo, I should have known better than to stick my nose in this thread. Can't we all just get along?!
• Space Kitty - yes, I think it possible that we could, but not necesarily the "we" who are commenting here. We're a very small town, with international citizens, and don't necessarily represent the divisions in the US.
• sorry for painting y'all with the USian brush...