October 30, 2004

• So Bin Laden is pro-Kerry in so many words. ...and those words would be, precisely?
• Doesn't seem like he is so much endorsing Kerry, more like showing his hatred for Bush and his policies.
• "bin Laden accused Bush of complacency during the Sept. 11 attacks, mocking him for going on with a visit to a school." It's weird hearing this guy who is practically become north america's posterchild for evil saying the exact same words I, and many others, have repeated before about Bush. He'd be a lot easier to dismiss if he weren't right about some things... I'm so used to thinking of him as this mindless 'death-to-america' lunatic, it's unsettling to hear him mirroring some arguments I agree with. Damn you shades of grey! Can't anything be black and white?
• me thinks drjimmy didn't rtfa "But he made little mention of Bush's Democratic challenger John Kerry, saying: 'Your security is not in the hands of Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda.'"
• these words: "Despite entering the fourth year after Sept. 11, Bush is still deceiving you and hiding the truth from you and therefore the reasons are still there to repeat what happened," To me anti-Bush equals pro-Kerry on October 29th, it can't be coincidence he issued it now. Unless you think he's a Nader man. (they are both interested in vehicles that burst into flames)
• "Your security is not in the hands of Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands and each state which does not harm our security will remain safe." Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Kerry. Does anyone have a link to a transcript? I'd love to read it.
• better yet, does anyone have a link to the video?
• So, I guess every one on the right is doing Osama's bidding?
• I was amazed at how healthy he looks. Last time he looked like death warmed over. The stories of him spending time in a hospital in Pakistan recently seem more believable.
• So what if OBL is still alive? Saddam was a far more dangerous threat.
• Even Osama has seen Moore's film! I really must be the last person who hasn't seen it.
• To me anti-Bush equals pro-Kerry on October 29th...Unless you think he's a Nader man. or, he doesn't give a flying fuck about the US election.
• Thinking GW is a pinhead is not necessarily an endorsement. I know a lot of old time fiscal conservatives that think just that. They just can't bring themselves to vote for Kerry instead. Since Illinois is already marked as a win for Kerry, some are making a symbolic gesture by writing in other republicans, others aren't voting at all, most are going to hold their noses and vote for the shrub anyway.
• To me anti-Bush equals pro-Kerry on October 29th.. Or, you know, he's actually pro-Bush and knows full well that him coming out with a tape helps Bush in the American election. There are so many possibilities, but the important thing is we base our vote on the opinions of a murderous fanatic.
• malphigian - You mean base our vote on Bush?
• Blood will run in the streets Found reference to another tape, but still no transcript for the bin Laden video. Any help would be appreciated. All this terrorist talk can only help Bush. Even if the videos turn out to be fakes, we'll never know before the election.
• Here, if someone tries to toss out the stupid OBL-wants-Kerry argument, run this one by them: Madrid Al Qaeda Cell endorses Bush: The statement tells American voters that Abu Hafs al-Masri supports the re-election campaign of President Bush: "We are very keen that Bush does not lose the upcoming elections." The statement said Abu Hafs al-Masri needs what it called Bush's "idiocy and religious fanaticism" because they would "wake up" the Islamic world. (FNC link for extra irony). Now, is it fair to hold the above against Bush? Nope... but if people are going to be idiots and try and claim this vague tape is some kind of Kerry endorsement, might as well fight fire with fire.
• It's interesting how different people interpret this but I see it as Bin Laden, ever the shrewd chessplayer, unambiguously handing victory to Bush. Terror favours the incumbant and in a race this close that's all that will be required*. If he didn't care about influencing the outcome of the election then why such precise timing? QED Bush famously said that he "doesn't do nuance". How about the American electorate? Link to partial versions of video and transcript plus a quick take on his exact phrasing by Arabist, Juan Cole. * - of course given that Bin Laden is still alive should be proof enough of Bush's ineffectiveness.
• Excerpts from Al Jazerra. A bit surprised they don't have a streaming server.
• That may be the most hopelessly desperate electioneering I have ever heard, John Hardy. You should be embarrassed.
• More nuance: Arabs for Bush
• See, OBL is stating that it doesn't matter which bozo we elect. We have whipped up such a shitstorm of hate in the middle east that we can probably expect random things to keep on exploding at inopportune times for at least a century. Fuyugare: Go read your Qtub. Please also compare and contrast the number of american civilians killed by Saddam and Osama (or their direct minions. you know what i mean.) Learn about who is allied with whom in the middle east. ( Hint: Saddam and the Pan-Arabians, i.e. the Baath party were deadly enemies of the islamicists, i.e. Bin Laden, the Shah of Iran, etc.) As it stands, up until our ambassador gave Saddam the green light to invade kuwait, he was our man in the middle east. Osama was our man in Afghanistan, up until we decided we wanted a chunk of the middle east for ourselves, and got in real cozy with the Pan-Arabians in Saudi Arabia, site of the two holiest cities in all of Islam, which didn't go down to well with the islamicist wahhabi sect, of which OBL is now the figurehead. See, we took out one of OBL main enemies, while enraging the muslim world. We killed two birds with one stone, but unfortunately, those were birds that Osama really wanted dead. Saddam wasn't all that scary, sure he was evil, but mostly he was scared shitless of iran invading. Osama, however, is now an international terror superstar. (excuse me but this is difficult for me to type as i lost friend in the world trade center, and lived a few blocks away). Why the fuck is he still alive? How is that possible? Why didn't he die days after 9/11? Someone was probably still trying to get through My Pet Goat.
• Try following the argument, briank. Whether you agree with it or not some civility would be appreciated.
• The barbarians are at the gate! Oh, look! Puppies in socks!
• I think marx is right: "...he doesn't give a flying fuck about the US election." To OBL, we're all pagans, crusaders, Western women are all whores because they expose their faces in public, and so forth. He probably doesn't think too much of elections in general: radical Islam doesn't have much use for democracy. But it's amusing to hear him parrot one of the left/liberal memes of the past year, the "My Pet Goat" thing.
• Freen: Sorry, you're just wrong. You're one of those people who, like Kerry, seem to think that the War On Terror has a narrow goal of catching OBL. It doesn't. It is a global war with diverse agendas. Of course catching terrorists is an element, but it is not the only element. Catching OBL is an important objective, but by many accounts he is only a figurehead, and many or most of the leaders of Al Qaeda are in custody. We are making considerable progress here, which you'll never see reported on CBS or the rest of the MSM. Now, the only way to win this war on terror is to topple rogue dictators that engender a philosophy of hatred, by force if required and practicable, and democratisation. Saddam Hussein was the biggest obstacle to democratisation in the middle east. He needed to be removed. You can make a fair case that the Bush administration mismanaged the PR aspect of the war, but he managed what Gore never would have even attempted. Iraq will recover. The insurgents will not be able to prevent it. Iraq will have proper elections in a year and join the free, democratic world.
• Iraq will recover. Minus 100,000 Iraqi civilians, but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
• That 100K number is hardly credible. The IBC site has it at 16K max, and even that figure has been challenged by some.
• Ok, which of you monkeys want to go to Iraq and do a direct body count?
• And a belated thank you to John Hardy!
• I thought this thread was going to be about Ashton Kucher.
• As for the video PatB mentions, I saw a clip of it and it looks soooooo fake.
• fuyugare: Bush has use 9/11 as a pretext to attack Iraq, at the expense of devoting attention to actually reducing the threat of terrorism. I have not heard a credible case for how the war in Iraq has reduced the threat of terrorism; but it almost certainly has turned into a massive al qaeda recruiting drive. Because Kerry is calling Bush on this does not mean that he sees the capture of OBL as the only goal in the war on terrorism. You're right, Gore would probably not even have attempted this war, and we'd all be better off for it.
• malphigian - You mean base our vote on Bush? posted by Argh at 01:40AM UTC on October 30 No... I think he means "all your base are belong to Bush"
• It's weird hearing this guy who is practically become north america's posterchild for evil saying the exact same words I, and many others, have repeated before about Bush. That's because you're a freaking traitor. That's why we need to vote for four more years of strong Bush leadership. And fuyugare, you talk about how great democracy is -- if it's so great, why are the Bushies so keen on selling it out at every opportunity?
• . . . it'll be hard, hard work undermining democracy so's we can ensure the spread of democracy. . . .
• If I were Kerry (or on his staff), I might want to be arguing about now that, due to Bush's admitted disinterest in catching Osama post 2001 (the infamous "don't think about him much" comment, and the shift of resources to Iraq), the jackass is still around releasing tapes, possibly signalling his network, and continuing to mock the pain and suffering of the families of those killed on 9-11. I would be arguing that ASAP.
• I don't believe in conspiracies, but I can't help thinking that some GOP-funded organization is using Osama's name as a tool, releasing tapes and "press releases" at appropriately-timed intervals.
• Don't demonize John Hardy for his argument. He may very well be right. A good portion of the American electorate, like drjimmy11 and his unbelievable leap-of-logic headline, is dumb enough to to play right into OBL's hands. Bush has to play it carefully, lest anybody think to look behind the curtain. GW Bush is the best thing to ever happen to El Qaeda and four more years should whip the majority of moderate middle east muslims to abandon their reasonableness for generations. (Iran manipulated Bush into taking out their old enemy Iraq without spilling a single drop of Iranian blood -and on the pretense that it was good for America.) OBL's message was crafted to move support to Bush, yes. But it will work only (as John Hardy pointed out) if American's are not smart enough to wonder why they are being manipulated to do just that. Unfortunately, OBL may have figured right.
• Pop Quiz: Which Quote is Authentic? A, or B? Quote A: For too long, many nations, including the United States, tolerated, even excused oppression in the Middle East in the name of stability. The oppression became common, but stability never arrived. You must take a different approach. -- Osama Bin Laden Quote B: For too long, many nations, including my own, tolerated, even excused oppression in the Middle East in the name of stability. The oppression became common, but stability never arrived. We must take a different approach. -- George W. Bush
• Unfortunately, OBL may have figured right. He's bad, but he's good, isn't he? That's because you're a freaking traitor. That's why we need to vote for four more years of strong Bush leadership. . . . it'll be hard, hard work undermining democracy so's we can ensure the spread of democracy. . . . I may be a traitor, but you're a stone-cold commie! Let's do lunch.
• Pop Quiz: Which Quote is Authentic? A, or B? Quote A: For too long, many nations, including the United States, tolerated, even excused oppression in the Middle East in the name of stability. The oppression became common, but stability never arrived. You must take a different approach. -- Osama Bin Laden Quote B: For too long, many nations, including my own, tolerated, even excused oppression in the Middle East in the name of stability. The oppression became common, but stability never arrived. We must take a different approach. -- George W. Bush
• Hank: 1) A 2) B (Hedging my bets)
• see, fuyugare, i never said it was all about OBL. But i did say our misguided "war on terror" in iraq has been beneficial for Osama. Primarily because Iraq had nothing to do with terror. The central issue at hand is whether or not you think terrorists are state sponsored actors, or whether you consider terrorism to be an inherently stateless activity. by state, i mean nation-state, i.e. cheney's continued insistence that iraq had something to do with 9/11. You are right, OBL ain't the only thing, but as a result of our highly misguided, ill conceived, and poorly executed war in iraq, we have created a breeding ground for terrorism. The central problem of "the only way to win this war on terror is to topple rogue dictators that engender a philosophy of hatred, by force if required and practicable, and democratisation." concept, is that it treats terrorists like an ontological category of existence, as opposed to a response to a set of circumstances. You seem to think that if we simply got rid of a bunch of the "heads" the body will die, or perhaps if we got rid of states that happen to have islam as their state religion, terrorism would end. That just simply isn't the case. Terrorism is a brand name that requires no distributor, no central office, and no investors. It is a viral idea, a concept, much like the dylan klebold /columbine school shooting concept, or the romanticizing of suicide among malaysian children, or smoking cigarettes. To beat the metaphor to death, it is a brand name that is it's own marketing department. The question is then, how do you destroy an idea, not a limited set of states or individuals who are terrorists. I'll tell you how not to do it: Play directly into the al 'qtub/ al qaida brand name crusade mythology, expose yourself as tolerating torture, utilizing the very holy land for war profiteering and commercialization of the resources. You do not frame the battle in terms of good and evil, you do not, under any circumstances allow the leaders of terrorist groups to survive, much less allow them to die in any sort of heroic sense, you fail to freeze funds (which btw, john kerry did a while ago, and Bush has only gotten around to just a few days ago...) See, states are not the main actors in terrorism. Individuals are. Democracy in iraq will be great. I'm glad Saddam is gone. Hopefully, we won't get another Ayatollah Khomenei in iraq. I disagree that iraq was the biggest obstacle to democratizing the middle east. In my opinion it was wealthy fundamentalists whose fortunes were financed by american dollars buying oil, and whose interests in the region have been protected by american soldiers who are the greatest hindrances to democracy. See the House of Saud, the Royal Family in Kuwait, Yemen, etc. Overflowing with money, these autocracies will be totally unaffected by a democratic iraq. the only possible domino effect is in iran, but before the war, the moderates were well on their way to taking power, and have had to relax their pro democratic rhetoric primarily because of strong anti-american sentiments in the country. I wonder why.
• Hmmm. Well, the puppies didn't work. Unleash the Kittens!
• Let 'em debate, islander, is what I say. We figure out what we believe, our values, via debate.
• How many times are we going to start a war against a noun before we figure out that it doesn't work?
• ryoshu why do you hate monkeyfilter? Monkeyfilter: at war against nouns.
• OBL is a metaphor for the entire war on terror. That we are even talking about that shithead in the present tense is huge failure on Bush's part. You can deflect and say that OBL is not important, blah, blah, blah. He's out there, laughing at us - and demonstrating that it is possible to poke the giant in the eye, and live to tell about it. "Wanted dead or alive" my ass.
• I don't believe in conspiracies, but I can't help thinking that some GOP-funded organization is using Osama's name as a tool, releasing tapes and "press releases" at appropriately-timed intervals. It's an interesting idea. The GOP is on a knife's edge with this one. They can't produce a dead body now, as the timing would be too suspicious. They can't let him go silent, otherwise it makes them look incompetent for not capturing him. If he makes another anti-US speech, then it spooks voters into the Fear Factor and motivates sheep to vote straight-ticket Republican. The more I think about it, this is a definite win-win for the GOP, unfortunately.
• If the Kerry campaign expects to remain in the game, they must release their own tapes with OBL attacking Kerry and urging folks to vote for Bush.
• If the Kerry campaign expects to remain in the game, they must release their own tapes with OBL attacking Kerry and urging folks to vote for Bush. Non sequitor. OBL and Al Qaeda aren't rooting for Kerry. Did you not read the transcripts?
• 'Read the transcript'? What the fuck is that. I get all my information from Fox News. I don't need to read nothing.
• Of course Osama is for Bush. Who has helped him more?
• I have come across an alternate translation of the Bin Laden statement, and I believe everyone should read it. This would be the first time I regret not being able to self-link on the Front Page. Or maybe the second.
• Well done Freen. Lucid & logical.
• So what if OBL is still alive? Saddam was a far more dangerous threat........ 'Read the transcript'? What the fuck is that. I get all my information from Fox News. I don't need to read nothing. posted by fuyugare ah, i see. good. good. carry on. god speed my little ones.
• If it wasn't obvious, Freen and others, I was scamming ya. I am what some of you call a troll. Don't... uh... tell anyone. It's not a real nice thing to say about someone.
• Codependence
• 'Read the transcript'? What the fuck is that. I get all my information from Fox News. I don't need to read nothing. *applause*
• And fuyugare creeps back under his bridge, gnawing his well earned goat leg with pleasure.
• Suskind: CIA determined the Bin Laden tape released the weekend before the '04 election helped Bush and that Osama wanted Bush reelected.