October 21, 2004

• Here's the plan... For every new member that joins, an old member is picked at random and ceremonially killed. There will be a post once per day listing the casualties, and we'll all acknowledge their sacrifice to the cause in the comments. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about removing their accounts. I'm talking about stoning them to death. I think it will help bring us together as a community.
• We can't. Well, yes, we can. We're not tied to what mathowie does. The tracicle school of moderation might keep us afloat longer than the Haughey school kept MeFi. Or we need tracicle to delegate power. Either a lot of power to a few, select, humble, noncontroversial individuals (huh-ho), or a mass-moderation scheme. If we find ourselves taken to that end, and choose mass-moderation, I suggest we have a look at the way our pal, Carl, runs things at plastic. But by and large, we're doomed.
• Oh, and we can learn from some of MeFi's bad experiences. I think we already do: there have been very few bans, but a few people have taken voluntary leaves. Which is a very healthy thing to do, IMO.
• I don't think locking the door to keep the hordes away is good, and I think many people sign up and participate for a short time then drift off - or sign up but never participate at all - so I think the best solution is to delete users that do not log in for some period of time.
• Better code would help prevent the door-locking issue. And continued niceness. And maybe some set policies. Argh. It's very difficult to predict the future. I don't want to shut people out. We've (as in #2 and I) had a brief discussion recently on the benefits of switching 'filter engines. Richer suggested something like drupal; all I care about is that the site remains as simple-looking and user friendly as possible, as well as being fast and efficient (like Metaphilter isn't when the threads get too long). There are many issues with this, not the least being that MoFi (and any filter) has dynamic, constantly changing content. That makes coding hard. Anyway, that's not the point here, I guess. It's a concern for me and hopefully not so much for you guys, unless the codemonkeys want to help out when the time comes. As for dealing with the numbers on an interaction level, I don't know. I think, as someone recently said, the personal Curious George posts help a lot because it gives us all a chance to remember there are people, real people with real feelings out there. I dare say there'll come a time when I have to sit down and flesh out some consistent policies that everyone will have to adhere to, but I'm hoping it'll be no more than "If fifteen people complain about the same person twenty-seven times, I'll have to take their banana away." Either way, we'll definitely lose some of the cosiness, but hopefully keep the eclecticness (or whatever the noun is). In fact, more eclecticism would be nice, politically, artistically, musically, geographically, monkeytastically. On preview: I will have to delegate, even if temporarily, at some point in the future. This is as good a time as any to mention that I'm pregnant and so will have to take a brief hiatus around June of next year.
• Congratulations!
• Congrats on the pregnancy Tracicle.
• Congratulations #1! (and #2, for that matter). I think each site has its own flavor, people join here because they like how we relate to each other and what we post. So I don't see MoFi changing that drastically. Maybe that's naive, but only time will tell.
• Congratulations tracicle - and to the new monkey!
• *screams in delight and claps hands* Yay!
• did you just find that out in between the first draft and hitting preview?... :-)
• Now now, back to the subject at hand, people. And keep it quiet, we haven't even told the grandparents yet... And thanks, as always. I'll hold off on the "Curious George: what should I call my child?" post until later.
• steveno: the number of accounts is a non-issue. See "Metatalk, the complete archive, 2000-2004" for the reasons. Well, okay, let's not be snarky, I've just studied online communities for too long. The problem with huge numbers of users is not technological, it's social. At some point, when there are too many people participating in a discussion, they stop being nice to each other. So you need some kind of control too keep them from ripping each other's head / being jerks. * one way is to keep the community small. That's the way mathowie chose with MeFi. * another way is to start moderating heavily & with superpowerful admins. That's, amongst others, the Joel on Software way * a third way is to give moderation power to members at random, with a mod point systems, for instance. that's the plastic.com/slashdot.org way. But that's very, very far from our filter roots. But someone who doesn't use his/her account, by definition, isn't participating in the discussion, and can't be a jerk to others. His only weight on the site is technlogical: a mere row in a database table. So we should leave old, abandoned accounts be. Plus, at any time, some people are actually in self-imposed exile. Coming back and finding you don't have an account would be pretty disheartening. Congratulation, tracicle.
• Heh, no flash. I was actually responding to Richer up there. Honestly. And I might have been looking for an appropriate moment to drop that in, just a wee bit.
• By following our fearless leaders example, we should all start on an aggressive breeding program to insure the survival of the site. (congratulations ;) )
• Congrats Tracicle. BTW, "Rancho Calamari” is a nice, relatively common masculine name. You don't want the child to be saddled with an odd, or unusual name.
• It would have been the classiest "on preview" of all time... "On preview: turns out I'm pregnant."
• the number of accounts is a non-issue But it is the issue *if* the answer is to keep the community small. The problem with huge numbers of users is not technological, it's social Absolutely agree.
• Congratulations, tracicle.
• Yay, tracicle! Congrats to you and #2! Also, what Richer said. My vote is, only after the current social moderation starts to become overloaded (daisy_may is a classic example of social moderation at work), some superpowerful mods, who should probably be known only to tracicle and themselves (not even other mods so nobody can for certain say "hey, the_bone/wendell/f8x is just picking on me because blah blah"), should have the power to singlehandedly delete trolls, flames, and manticores, and if egregious continued abuse happens, add a vote to a "ban tally" where, say, 2 or 3 mods putting in a ban vote makes it happen. I can think of some downsides, but I've blabbed enough already.

• There are many issues with this, not the least being that MoFi (and any filter) has dynamic, constantly changing content. That makes coding hard.

  Not necessarily. HTML::Mason, for example, implements a caching scheme whereby HTML can be cached and served statically unless programmaticly triggered events occur; eg a page can be maintained statically until a comment is posted. I'm sure people have implemented similar schemes in PHP. One can also look at the backing DB - MySQL is very, very quick when just reading, but does have flaws on SELECT while many INSERT/UPDATEs happen. Others don't. Likewise, good use of SQL and stored procs can improve performance overall, but MySQL is still a bit limited with more sophisticated uses of SQL. *nominates Alnedra as level-headed Monkeybashi stand-in/assistant* Oh, and congrats on the new sproglet-to-be.
• Congrats, tracicle.
• Will these super-powerful Mods be riding super-powerful scooters?
• We must perpetuate the connection between site members by linking MoFi to the real world! Every prospective new member will be mailed an un-identified beverage in an unlabeled container. If they correctly identify the flavor(s), they will be allowed to post. Extra privilege will be considered for proper identification of any chunky bits. And congratulations to our fearless leader and her future heir.
• rogerd: yes, there are a lot of stuff we can do to help performance. PHP-wise, using smarty templates + their integrated caching comes to mind. Drupal also has a caching solution. I don't know how hard it is to set up, but squid is a platform-independant solution (as seen on wikipedia). I've had a long, hard look at MetaPhilter. I really have a hard time understanding everything that goes on in it. See my post on tracicle's blog to know my (admitedly inexperienced) take on it.
• Congratulations...
• congrats on the coming baby monkey tracicle!
• Congratulations! (trying to keep it quiet)
• Congrats Tracicle and #2! If you have twin girls please consider naming them Polly and Esther. Heck, even if you don't have twin girls. Clas-say. And with this many aunts and uncles, the kid will turn out just fine. Yup. Just. Fine.
• Huge congrats to you both, tracicle!
• congratulations. what great news. *jumps for joy* p.s. i'd like to put in an early vote for my favorite name: rastus.
• Aww, wook at the ickle baby chimp! Sorry, rolypoly, didn't mean to hijack your thread.
• Yea Geminis! OK Monkeybashi, it would be very nice if you sprung on my birthday--Here's to a healthy June (10th) baby!
• May 27th! May 27th!
• Well...as member 2082, I feel that I have very little say in how to run MoFi. I would just like to mention that in the short time I've been here, that I've truly enjoyed this Filter. Particularly the Curious George postings. It seems that what makes MoFi special is its cordiality and unspoken rules of non-snarkiness (is that a word?). Sometimes unspoken etiquite is the best. Tracicle: CONGRATULATIONS! As the father of a 7.5 month old, I can say you have wonderful (and trying) days ahead of you. Feel free to PM me if you would like to talk to a still new parent.
• YAY tracicle! Not everyone who signs up will post, just like at that other place. I've signed up for a coupla boards and never posted just because it was kind of a vote of confidence, or else I thought I'd impress people with my coolth. Or because I was bored. I'm not sure all communities that get large enough get mean. I think some of that comes from the type of person the community attracts. As long as we call ourselves a Metafilter clone, Metafilter wannabes will come here and act like its Metafilter. And I think sooner or later they'll go away because our cute cuddly kitten stuff will make them tensor something. (heh) If not, we must relentlessly purge from our numbers all those who take themselves too seriously. We must be strong. We must be vigilant. It may well be that someday Monkeyfilter will have a gazillion members. If that happens, I plan to put my <1000 member ID up for auction and retire on the proceeds.
• Hey, hey, hey! Enough of that talk, Zanshin! Every monkey here has exactly the same say, regardless of user number. We're all equal here. One monkey, one vote. Well, except pete_best. He's got 372 votes. I believe he operates on the electoral college system.
• Congrats Monkeybashi! *looks for pattern to crochet banana for tiny new monkey*
• WOW! Congrats tracicle!!!!!!
• non-snarkiness (is that a word?) Zanshin, I believe the term you're looking for is "asnarkicity".
• What a joyous thread! As the granddad of a 5 1/2-month-old, I can tell you babies are pretty great. And I'm sure yours will be especially so! (Can't wait for his/her first post...)
• In the 1980s I spent a couple weeks of my misspent youth on a unspoiled island off the coast of Thailand, snorkeling and chasing English girls and ingesting magic mushrooms and Loatian "whiskey." Glorious. Some years afterwards I ran into a fellow who had just visited said island. Before he could say another word I was on an extended reverie in praise of this tropical paradise. Finally I thought to ask him what it was like now. He said "Never go back." This is a wonderful site--lots of low-hanging bananas. But as our numbers swell I try not to get too emotionally invested. Lets all work to maintain the unique MoFi ethos as long as we can.
• I second (third? fourth? I've lost track!) what Richer said. I've been hanging around various online communities--mailing lists, boards, etc.--long enough to have seen a lot of different methods for keeping communities strong. Some worked, some didn't. But it's fundamentally a social problem and has to be approached from a social POV. Tracicle, congratulations! I have name advice, too, but I'll save it for your post.
• quite literal on the future of monkeyfilter way to bring the point back around talk about a segueway
• Congratulations Tracicle and #2!
• Ultra congratulations, tracicle! Ian or Elliot if it's a boy, Emma or Michaela if it's a girl /my_humble_suggestion
• Hurray! Good news today as monkeys hear there'll be new Hope this coming year! Congratulations tracicle and #2! All hail the wee Cockerel who'll be joining you!
• Tracicle: At least at this point, we seem to be pretty good at running off the trolls and non believers on our own. (Maybe too good, sometimes.) And, I'm not sure that getting rid of unused accounts would make much difference from a usage standpoint, plus it might get rid of shy lurkers who might someday start contributing to our benefit. I'd really hate to see us become exclusionary. Maybe you should concentrate on the technical limitations at this point, and leave the the social train wrecks for later. (Especially since we're not going to go from 2,000 to 17,000 users for quite a while. Where we are now seems to be working to a large extent - as in Wolof's news about folks who have seemed to have abandoned us, who just had other things to do and will be back. Looks to me as though personal friendships are still strong enough to handle a lot of stuff.) To wrap this up, I guess what I'm saying is that we may be worrying about the wrong things at this time. The social stuff will take care of itself for a while, but we need to plan for the technical support of future population increases.
• And, #1 and #2, congratulations! And the orangutan I sponsored some months ago is named Siska. Seems like a lovely name for a girl with monkey roots.
• I'm working on metaphilter. Altough I'll never like that codebase, I think we can still coax a good bit of performance from it.
• Congrats Monkeybashis 1 and 2! May MoFi survive to nurture your kids. Monkeys here are wise and kind, the future is bright.
• Woah. Looks like MoFi 0.9alpha (experimental branch) will get somewthing of an Overhaul
• Congrats Monkeybashi. All the best. I agree with hutta's general take on things. You will be nice, or we'll stone you to death. Or feed you to Tracicle's unborn child by way of black magic. Or sit on your face. That kind of thing.
• And more congratulations :) how about Dashelle? In regard to the post: if you agree it's a social problem, that after a point things get less personal as it becomes harder to form a mental image of every newcomer, that there's less of a chance to find definition in the group and the group loses its shared definition, then there's nothing to do but close the borders, in one fashion or another. You can't make people get along better by trying harder to control them. I think the best option is to have something like open the membership for a week unnanounced to make sure you get faithful readers or to have some sort of invite system like one invite per month. Or perhaps, could you have mirror sites so it'd be like bizzaro monkeyfilter where people could have dual citizenship and could post both places simotansiously, is that possible?
• I vote against the Slashdot moderation system. I knew it was bad after several friends told me to tell them if I posted something, they had mod points. Richer, numbers is why I don't visit Slashdot as much any more, for several reasons. First is the number of young geeks discovering how cool it is to post something, anything, and getting modded up by their friends. Second, with 800,000+ users, I don't really know anyone. At MeFi and MoFi, I actually feel like I know people, and I enjoy that. I think a smaller community is the only answer. But yes, either way, we're doomed.
• Use bad code. Have the New User link randomly take you to the right page or an error message. Or better yet, a page that says under construction. Have the randomness of going to the right page directly correlated to the number of current members. Right now, it could be a 1:2 chance of getting the right page. At 5,000 memebers, it could be 1:5 chance of getting the right page. at 10,000 it could be 1:10... or not.
• I think that we will grow to the stage where we have to close up membership. Then, after months of frustrated lurking around MoFi waiting for membership to re-open, some enterpising types will head off on their own, and set up MangoFilter, or MumbleFilter, possibly MilkFilter. Some monkeys of longstanding may head over there to give them support, and find that they end up preferring the tone over at MaFi/MuFi/MiFi. Thus, the Circle of Life continues as it always has, rolling slowly on into the sunset, and eternity. MangoFilter: We're fruitier over here.
• Congrats Monkeybashi on the monkeybashilette to be!!!
• Yes, slashdot's a wasteland. Kuro5hin too, but for other reasons. I'd argue, however, that plastic is not. IMO, we wont have to think about doing something drastic until well past the 10,000 mark. I hope we can afford to go to 20,000 without closing off membership.
• Yeah, congratulations...that's the monkeybees monkeyknees, #1. As to the growth problem, what about varying the allowed posting frequency based on a rolling total of posts over the last year? That way, deeply involved people- the heart of the community- can keep the same vibe going, while rarer posters can still drop something cool. The top tier would be daily, the next weekly, and the third monthly, say. It also has the added advantage of slowly introducing people to the community...you'd have to carefully pick your posts for the first few months to get up to a weekly level. People who don't vibe on the purple will drop off, and harmony will reign.
• jimbecile: that's very similar to the karma system plastic uses. seems to work for them.
• Limiting members at Metafilter begat Monkeyfilter and it was good. Verily the nose-pressing unto the glass and the vexation wroth upon the Unchosen shall begat more delicious Filters. Or, what flashboy said. Also, hooray for forthcoming Very Small Monkey :)
• I don't like point-based moderation schemes. I read Slashdot fairly regularly and while I enjoy most of the comments I get to see, I've never felt the urge to post anything. There's no way I'd ever recognize anyone's username, either. As a weblog worth reading, I think it does well; as an online community worth getting involved in, uh, well, not so much. And a huge congratulations to #1 and #2 on the creation of a #4(?)
• Hey, I'm getting a baby too! Her name is Claire Mao Huang Bin, and she is one year and one month old.
• (This seemed to be the baby thread.)
• I think it is now :) And we expect photos as soon as you have some to show, Daddy Wolof.
• Congrats to both you and #2, tracicle! Unlike many Monkeys, it seems, I don't have a particular name preference... but if you're interested, the Kabalarians have a huge listing, broken down by country, each name with the supposed personality traits that go with it according to their philosophy.
• Congratulations! Make sure you get enough folic acid (eat strawberries and, er, bananas). I like the idea of moving on from Metaphilter, but not out of a detailed technical appreciation so much as a childish love of new and shiny things. (Ooh, ooh - can we have pictures?)
• baby monkeys are so cute. well done one and all. Oh, and I don't mind how many of us there are - all the more to help me with my stupid questions when life goes beyond my knowledge base...
• 1st up, congrats to #1 (and of course #2) As a monkey in the low hundreds (#144), I've checked this site everyday since joining, but have only posted 3 or 4 times and maybe commented about a dozen times (you other guys just say it all before I get there). So I'd be averse to the killing of accounts that hadn't contributed for a period. Think the delegation of #1's powers to a number of users may be the best way forward.
• Congratulations, tracicle! As for the blog, I suggest some kind of script that trawls for posters who haven't logged on in more than (say) 12 months, and kick them.
• I'm going to feel old-skool before long. *Congratulations, tracicle!* (My son, now 15, is glad I didn't give in to insane pregnancy hormones and name him Wank Advil as planned)
• How did I miss this thread??? Congrats tracicle! June 11th, June 11th
• It wasn't me, and you can't prove it was! Here's to yet another Kiwi Monkey! Congrats Nos 1 & 2.
• I suggest members be cut off after 12 days.
• I'd support somehow getting rid of inactive members (not lurkers) but people who've come along looked once, joined and then gone away and never come back. It would present a more realistic sample of our user base - not sure how to do this technically. Tracicle - many congrats to you and #2!! re name you could always do what my bro did earlier this week and call it Ptolomey. Or not!
• I suggest members be cut off after 12 days. I cut off my own member yesterday. (Congratulations to Wolof, dickdotcom's brother and tracicle & #2!)
• What chimaera said. I personally prefer the MeFi style of things as opposed to "ranked" posts a la Plastic or Slashdot, and having a couple of additional admins may take some of the load off of tracicle (many congrats, btw. Shall we send an iPod to the baby shower? :) ). I humbly submit that y'all don't want me moderating anything, however.
• Congratualtions and felicitations and best wishes and a whole bunch of other nice wishes, tracicle.
• CONGRATS TRACICLE! now: * approval by certain enlightened monkeys (with tracicle's green light of course) would be required. * Or deactivate monkeys that don't use their banana for a month or so. *or have massive exodus every year in which you deactivate everyone, and then make it a first come first served basis for the first 3000 users... he he
• Don't all be in such a hurry to turn this into another MetaFilter (or anything else). As with most community sites, the total number of members bears little relation to the number of regularly active ones. As long as the regular participants are all of the "play nice and pick up your toys when you're done" variety, all these moderation schemes, membership limits, etc. are added baggage. Obviously tracicle will need a little admin help when she has the baby, but it's not exactly Presidential Succession, y'know? Thing #1 thing I hate about MetaFilter is its insistence on treating itself as The Most Important Thing In The Known Universe. Don't do that here, please.
• Happy "I'm pregnant" to all who are! As far as our imminent doom: We already have a perfectly functional ranking system called pete_best, anything else would be redundant.
• Oh, and as far as deactivating accounts: I "left" for several months, during which time I only had sporadic access to a computer, and was really happy, when internet access was restored, to be able to jump back into the fray right where I left off. So if we must start ditching old, non-logging in, accounts, let's make it a good long grace period on the order of 6 months or so.
• I don't really know dick about programming/coding/whatever, but Richer's comment above (But someone who doesn't use his/her account, by definition, isn't participating in the discussion, and can't be a jerk to others. His only weight on the site is technlogical: a mere row in a database table. So we should leave old, abandoned accounts be) seems sound, and would be a good rationale for not deleting user accounts. Just highlighting his idea, since a lot of folks seem to have missed it.
• Wolof, congratulations on your new daughter! Hail to thee, Claire Mao Huang Bin! Don't kick your daddy in his chin! Or seize the poor man by the ear! Aye, ye'll have your way with him, never fear.
• Yay! We're pregnant! Congratulations numeros uno y dos! *goes to search for monkey onesie for babybashi*
• I think the following would be a good solution, but it would require some coding. Make people submit a fpp as part of their membership app. The post goes to a special page. Current users (or possibly current users who have posted at least one fpp, or possibly just a few certain users appointed by trac) can go to that page and award bananas to each post they read. If a post is deemed worthy by some formula regarding the number of bananas, then the person is accepted (and their post moves to the front page). I don't think the formula should make it very difficult- as long as the person has something to post, and as long as the post doesn't completely suck, they're in. Each ip can submit 1 per day/week/whatever. Just requiring users to submit a fpp would probably cut down on the applications. It'll encourage people to sign up because they want to contribute nice things to the front page. It places the emphasis on the front page, instead of the comments. It'll also discourage people from signing up on an impulse just to post a comment- which is good if they wanted to snark at something they deemed offensive, but could be bad if they wanted to contribute something helpful. I think the good points outweigh the one bad, but maybe some alteration of this plan can eliminate that one bad point.
• PS congrats to the parents of the various baby monkeys announced in this thread.
• I must admit that the lack of new user access at metafilter was what brought me to this site. (Funnily enough, it was a post on metafilter which referenced this one... tho' it's not like the two sites are competitors). The last straw was where someone had posted something which, through minor investigation, I was able to debunk, but there was no where for me to put in my two cents to end the senseless argument which ensued. Finally, I was able to find an e-mail address of someone who had posted in the thread, and they passed along the info. I like the simple look and "cloneness" of this site, and I hope that I am a welcome addition to the MoFi community. And although I must admit I haven't yet read Tracicle's profile... Let my introduction be: "Congrats on the new monkey!" (See? I've learned the "lingo" already!)
• I like what flashboy and moneyjane said; the ideas in this thread sound eerily historical. Close the doors! Sparta. Institutionalize the Revolution! China. Ibn Khaldun said groups lose their Assabiya, the spirit of self-sacrifice that keeps them together. To illustrate, do you remember 1994? Everybody was Monkeyfilter. Now it's just us. My suggestion: Why don't we give a year to each of the ideas proposed, in rotation? It'll be interesting, at the very least.
• The best we can hope for is to keep true to the core goals of Monkeyfilter "more bananas, less flinging". Hang on to that ideal. If louts come here and start picking fights or otherwise ruining things, we drop any remnants of civility and burn them all. Leaving the smoldering ruins of Monkerfilter behind for some future Internet Archaeologists to find, we back down the evolutionary chain and start Lemurfilter. Yeah, that should do it...
• monkeys are better, it's the simple truth. and more monkeys are fabulous (congrats to those who will soon have new monkeys in their lives)! I'm glad to see this sort of thing discussed before the masses descend and we're all stuck (and might make a bad decision). I'm for doing what it takes to keep this place the banana-gifting, poo-flinging refuge it is. those who understand the mechanics of it can judge if a shift in engine is right. as for the social aspects, what about a policy statement or blurb when you sign up a new user? it's a soft solution, but it might help. I'd also encourage the plurality of filters!
• zedcaster, I think what you mean is "I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." /obligatory
• First off, I'll add to the congratulations. A request: If it's a boy, then call him Linus. My wife won't let me name our (so far hypothetical) son Linus, so I have to pass it on. Think about it. To the newer monkeys, I want to reiterate what was said upthread: pretty much everybody here wants this to be more of a meritocracy than anything. Your thoughts and opinions are not judged based on whether you showed up last year or last week, so don't hesitate to sound off. I've got a friend who signed up here a few months ago, and is evidently gun-shy -- he's posted exactly one comment that I know of. To him and all others who are hesitant, please join the fun. We'll only kick you in the nuts once or twice. Maybe you should concentrate on the technical limitations at this point, and leave the the social train wrecks for later. I agree totally. There's no need to discuss mods or deadbolts until we come to that. pony request: the ability to use style tags to customize our user pages a la MeFi would be sweet.
• tracicle - does the new kid get to be user number 2.5? :) wonder how mofi would run if the mefi code base was ported over to linux... get rid of jrun, but keep the other fun bits like threading and comment tracking and etcetera... no need for separate ask and talk pages, but hey the code is tested to work for 17000+ members. that would keep us going for a while. fork the code, go from there. just idle thoughts, don't think matt would give up his baby so easily (if he would, metaphilter wouldn't be out there now would it?) but i can dream, right? although we do the "more inside" thing much better, gotta say. the spell checker and auto-insert-link thingy, plus auto-format bold or italic? well mefi has us beat there.
• My 2 cents worth from a fairly new monkey: - Congratulations tracicle! I knew the first time I saw it that the "don't go there" face was a good mom face.
  - lloyder: thanks, I'm relieved to hear there are historically less active folks out there. Sometimes I wonder where the awesome 'core posters' find the time (I'm so thankful that they do).
  As for all the rest of this, I generally agree with the less-technical-control-is-better idea. It would be Really Really Nice if the community could moderate itself socially without applied constraints. Maybe it could work? Maybe? I like the idea of trusted 'shadow moderators' though I don't really know what it would mean, I just think it sounds cool.
  Seems to me the 'growth' question is about who we want to keep/throw out - people who post low grade cheap laughs (farkification), people who get a little too shrill(mefization), folks who don't post much(lloyder/me), or do we not exclude anybody? Not much help there, but I just wonder what others want from any proposed limitations.
• clf: Coldfusion MX standard: 1299$ / server. And Matt seems to use Colfusion MX Enterprise or equivalent (JRun to the hills) which cost 5999$ / 2 CPUs. I've also heard that, in fact, Windows server 2003 is stable as a rock. But it's all speculation, since we don't have access to the source code. Monkeyfilter is running the last Metaphilter release + performance hacksenhancements and some added bells and whistles (e.g.: stylesheet chooser). I think that, once we've taken care of most of the performance problems & refactored a bit (the code is quite an unwieldly affair full of cut & paste), there are a lot of worthwhile ponies/orang-utangs to give the monkeys.
• Congratulations to Tracicle (and User #2 for doing his part) and Wolof! And my unsolicited baby-naming advice to #1 and #2: if it's a girl, don't name her Hope. but you probably knew that already. Seriously, from the beginning this place has been great, and in large part that's because a critical mass of people decided to set the tone at a certain level, and now if a trollish noob comes along, there's a chorus of "hey, we don't dig that here, move along" which seems to work just fine, (I'd link to the famous-for-being-infamous Daisy May thread, but, well, you know.) Over the long term that should still work, and if Tracicle wants to delegate some magic monkey admin powers while she is sleep-deprived mama of monkey #2, or even simply to balance out the time zones (can't expect her to stay up 24/7, can we?) that's cool.
• ambrosia: well, Tracy WILL be staying up 24/7 once monkey #2.5 gets here.
• zedcaster: The best we can hope for is to keep true to the core goals of Monkeyfilter "more bananas, less flinging". Hang on to that ideal. Just like in advertising. Campaigns with a strong strategy work better than those without, and stronger brand identities seem to be more successful than weaker brands. Mofi will probably get through its growing pains well because its identity is so strong. And congrats Wolof on new baby monkey Claire Mao Huang Bin!
• I wonder if it's possible to have some kind of 'time-out' mechanism, whereby 10, 20 or whatever number of people can anonymously register their displeasure/fright/unholy wrath with a particular poster who would then be tossed in the monkey brig for a week/not allowed to post or comment for a week. You could have a maximum number of time-outs allowed before handcuffing the offending monkey to the top of the tree to be snatched and devoured by golden eagles, and I think it best that people don't explain their particular problem with said monkey, because that tends to make things more personal. And personal is definitely not where you want it to go. It would simply be a tip-off there is a problem with this particular poster. Often, when an explanation is given to someone whose (most likely scenario) aggressive behaviour is a problem, they take it as a direct attack on their person, and lash out accordingly. If no explanation is given, the onus is on them to examine their own behaviour and either attempt to change it or decide we all suck and stomp off to another board. It could be as simple as sending an e-mail to a designated e-mail address, saying 'no banana for___" Obviously those complaining need to understand that a behaviour/posting issue is a legitimate concern, while just not liking someone else's point of view is not. And someone always complaining about someone they simply don't like can be tossed in the brig as well for being a dick. That is all.
• Hmmm...realise I have those complaining as anonymous at the beginning, and not anonymous at the end. Crap!
• Problem with that, mj, is that in encourages cliques, pile-ons, and fake accounts. Far better, to my mind, to allow ignore lists. Mark users you never want to hear from again, and don't.
• Tracicle should set up the system so that non-active users are kicked off. However, she should not tell the rest of us what she's done. That way we'd always believe that MoFi is a nice cozy place. Which it is. It's like the old addage: Ignorance is bliss and knowledge is a moldy three-day-old peach pit stuck in your goddamn throat.
• As it is, I don't tend to lay the smackdown unless I've had multiple complaints about a person, either through comments or email, and I'd like to keep it that way. I like the time-out idea though, although it feels a little like playing 'Filter Mother. The problem I see with removing accounts that are inactive (which isn't necessary as someone said because they don't slow the site down), is that it might "force" some people to post or comment just to keep their account open, and the quality of those posts and comments would probably be lower than someone who posts because they genuinely have something good to offer. Maybe I should just change the member number to always read "35 members" so it always feels cosy. And everyone will have the same login name. :) Thank you all so much for the good wishes! And congrats to Uncle Dickdotcom too - you know the job of uncle requires you to introduce young Ptolemey to alcohol and buy the loudest toys in existence, right? Lastly, there are some fantastic ideas in here. And let me say a huge thanks to Richer in public because he's been doing a lot of investigation into how Metaphilter works and how we can improve it. I think the best idea for now is to stick to the "More bananas, less flinging" for as long as we can. We're doing pretty well so far and our community moderation is awesome.
• before handcuffing the offending monkey to the top of the tree to be snatched and devoured by golden eagles I demand that moneyjane's timeout mechanism be implemented immediately and literally.
• Eaglefilter
• Yeah, Richer is teh rad, even if I can't read his blog.
• PrometheusFilter?
• monkeybashi! quick! stock up on tacky pregnancy t-shirts! and as far as names go, i already gave my best to gramMa's cat: umlaut. but for your bambino, my next fave: Wren. boy or girl, works either way! and congrats!!
• Problem solved
• Congratulations to Monkeybashi and her consort on your soon-to-be-blessed event. I don't like the idea of bumping inactive members (maybe 'spectator' accounts for people who just want to use the sidebar-updating cookie-thing... I am NOT so tech-savvy). Of course, you are going to have to evict User #3 to give the number to your monkette, because everybody knows Three Is a Magic Number. (And you should put Kimberly on notice of potential future fertility) As for naming the baby, I am not going to suggest "Wendell" (or its feminization "Wendy") in recognition of the emotional scars it can cause. Just try for a name that the li'l one will have a chance to customize for his/herself while growing up (Hubert/Hugh/Bert or Elizabeth/Liz/Beth - not the best examples, just examples). But you still have months of morning sickness to amuse yourself with first. Cheers! And, in response to rxreed, I have a great deal of faith that the MonkeyHaus will continue to be a (relatively) safe harbor no matter how tumultuous the internet may become (but you still might want to invest in virtual sandbags).
• We will intimidate the forces of Snark with our resolute reasonableness. And golden eagles.
• I wouldn't worry about it ... yet. I'm in agreement that this is more of a social issue rather than a numbers/technical one. I'd avoid making people do a test post to prove their worthiness here. Smacks of elitism to me and sounds a little like that other philter at times. What may be a excellent post to one person isn't necessarily the view of another and could lead to harsh feelings and keeping people out who might otherwise have many good points to raise. I dont think we can ever avoid the inevitable "troll"/"flamer" that will come here from time to time. Some like to revel in screwing with other people online and with some of the topics, (sex, politics, religion) that get discussed here it's bound to happen sooner or later. Think how we handle it as a group is what matters in the end. Solutions? Possibly some soft sell "do's and don'ts" and possibly some moderation will help. In all fairness I don't think as a community it is fair to leave it all up to tracicle. Not from a "power" point of view but from a, "as numbers grow so does responsibility" view. Think that last sentence makes sense, if not, ask. congrats on the monkeybashi to be!
• richer: that's why open source rocks. that much money just to run a f/philter? cripes. maybe i should send matt $5 out of guilt for all my lazy lurking and commenting...
• wendell (and others), there is already a user #3, this is user #4. Congratulations, to tracicle, Wolof and dickdotcom! Wolof, is Claire already with you now? Is it all crazy? I was living with my niece when she was about that age (just over one in her case), and it was wonderful and then she started walking and it was crazy :) She's still wonderful and crazy (at age 5).
• More seriously - I have noticed almost no actual trolling in the history of monkeyfilter (though I did miss the first week and "cock"). Most tension that has ever been here has been between members who were sincere, but very passionate about what they were writing about. I think it is to simple to dismiss any problems as "trolling" when really it's much more complicated than that.
• To him and all others who are hesitant, please join the fun. We'll only kick you in the nuts once or twice. ... After cutting off your member for 12 days.
• Oh, what joy! I am thrilled for both Tracicle and Wolof! Such wonderful news! I'm afraid I cannot hold off on names....it's one of the best parts, so here goes just a few ideas... Girl: Grace, Sophie, Gabrielle Boy: Logan, Elliot, Keiran
• Wolof, is Claire already with you now? We have to go to China to pick her up. This will happen in 8-12 weeks.
• Congratulations Tracy and #2! Congratulations Wolof! Congratulations MoFi! Congratulations Congratulations! Congralutions Eris! Congratulations Yes! /joining late
• Darshon, lovely names! Logan's a favourite name for me, and my youngest cousin's named Keiran (such an adorable boy; I miss him!). Gabrielle is a beautiful name too.
• Glad you like them, Alnedra! Logan is my son's name (Lolo for short) and I love it. Gabriella is my daughter's same. Gabby for short, Crabby Gabby, Gassy Gabby and Gabby Gabby when appropriate! :> . I'm willing to share the names since it's all the way over in OZ! :)
• We have to go to China to pick her up This should make for some fun at border control. "Purpose of your visit, Mr Wolof?" "I'm here to steal one of your children." "Very well. Have a nice stay in China!"
• As for names, just wot is wrong with Moon Unit and Dweasel, pray tell? /From the Department of Names That Build Character.
• Are we still not supposed to see you, fuyugare , or are you back for real?
• This should make for some fun at border control. I think the China government would love to send more children out. They've still got the one-child policy, I believe.
• Now they just need a one-child duty free policy. These are terrible, terrible "jokes" I'm making here.
• (psst - Monkeybashi - about this "quidnunc" guy . .. he's . . well . . odd. Are you sure he should . . ) Oh! Hey quidnunc! Heh heh. How's it goin' . . . (yeah, I dunno, I mean his jokes are terrible, although occasionally really funny . . and what's that T-shirt thing all about? All I'm saying is if you need to test out the new Obliteratron feature, maybe he's the monkey for the job, n'est pas?)
• Tracicle should set up the system so that non-active users are kicked off. I absolutely don't see the point of this. I also don't like the anonymous vote-'em-off-the-island idea. Fortunately, tracicle doesn't seem to either.
• A belated congratulations to tracicle and michaelh, and Wolof, too.
• At this point I don't think we need any exclusionary policies. Think we will continue to see more clearly as time passes what sort of place we think we are. And want to be. Never thought we were a metafilter clone. Like one thing about losing our Collective Memory, it has diminished the outcries of 'double post'. Pony: Be nice if a URL-based search thingy were to be possible some day. And more bananas and cock punch!
• Double post!
• if you need to test out the new Obliteratron feature, maybe he's the monkey for the job, n'est pas? Jesus goddam you pete_besticle You are like a painful boil on my testicle.
• Dammit, people, how many times do I have to say it? We Need Golden Eagles!!! Otherwise Monkeyfilter is doomed.
• Doomed, I say. Doomed.
• A leopard in every thread! New members may only exist in a liquid or gaseous state! Put a limit on vowels!
• lrght, vrybdy bck n th pl!
• OK, scratch the vowel thing. Users must eat two penguins before commenting! Glue old members together! FPPs must be pre-authorised by a pudding!
• Do we get to choose to whom we will be glued?
• NO!
• I dont mind being glued between the two Qs!!!
• Maybe we can initiate the gluing policy at the L.A. Meetup this Sunday.
• I think we should all swap logins.
• Wow, could I be dng for a day? I better get started on those stats! And get lots and lots of good posts to go! :)
• Monkeyfilter: Glued Between The Two Qs
• I agree that infrequent posters/commenters should be kept on - their accounts would need to be maintained if they ever had made either to avoid dealing with the confusing "Anonymous" ghost, and banning them seems like undeserved punishment. I'd also like to urge a bit of patience before any ground swell of "get rid of that asshole" anti-troll complaints were made. I've seen a number of new members who started out with annoying personas (in-your-face, aggressive, supercilious) who eventually calmed down once they figured out that wasn't the local style. My guess is that that's what they thought all communities fostered. And, you know what, what we did best when they'd fart in our faces was to walk over to the other side of the auditorium and continue talking among ourselves.
• Oh, and swapping logons. I think Nostrildamus and I should switch. That would be comedy gold.
• /raise eyebrow Intriguing.
• jb I used the word "troll" to catagorize a group of people who go out of their way to piss others off. It's a good word to use to sum up actions. Not claiming there have been or will be "trolls" here but, the "fear" of the philter being ruined by a few bad apples and becoming MeFi like is undeniable. From what I've read seems everyone wants to keep the friendly atmosphere and keep banana flinging to a minimum. Just thought I'd point out that "protectionism" isn't necessarily going to keep them away and that sooner or later, because of some of the topics discussed, powerful feelings will surface. I'm all for giving people chances and not rushing to the "t" word at any instance of a disagreement, far from it.
• Yeah, there's a difference between stupid assholes and trolls. A stupid asshole might look like a troll at times, but it's a matter of intent. A stupid asshole is trying to honestly convey his beliefs, he just happen to have the beliefs of a stupid asshole. A troll has no interest in honestly conveying his beliefs. A troll just wants to poke you with a stick until he gets a reaction. He's a provoker and an antagonizer. Nobody wants to be a stupid asshole; people that end up that way never intended to be a stupid asshole. So stupid assholes can't be blamed for being that way. It's not their fault. If they had any control over it, you can be sure they'd have tried to not be one. You can't fault someone for circumstances beyond their control. And all of us, in some way are stupid assholes, at some time. Often it's not permanent state though, because we recieve treatment in the form of interaction and conversation. But trolls are that way by choice. They know what they're doing; they've maliciously made the decision to troll. They know what they're doing, and are in full control of their actions. As such, they are responsible for their actions, and should be dealt with according to the Laws of the Trolls, which states to: stone 'em, then stone the corpse aplenty, then rejoice and drink grog.
• I was trying to say that it wasn't even that people are being stupid assholes - it's that fights begin because of intelligent people caring deeply about something, that is passion.
• Agreed, jb. And there's a group between stupid assholes and trolls - those who genuinely care about their beliefs to the detriment of their treatment of people around them who disagree. And I think that's what we see here on MoFi; people who are so sure that they are right that they can't fathom that someone would believe otherwise, therefore that person must be stupid, or misled. I had a play with drupal last night and it made me quite pleased to see that it has an inbuilt option for a photo on the user bio page - I really think it helps people to get along if they know more about the people they're arguing with.
• Congrats to Wolof too.
• (Thanks for the congrats. Most sincerely. I will post a picture or two soon.) In other news, witter, witter, witter. Everything is fine as it is right now. Hey, just live in it, it&#039;s OK until further notice!* I do, however, fully support coder types analysing anticipated future user loads (yay richer). *That&#039;s more of an &quot;I hope&quot; thing than an &quot;I know&quot; thing. But seriously folks, I&#039;ve been here since light of day, and it grows as it grows, not as how you plan it to grow. The most effective approach is to monitor it closely as and when it unfolds. Have your say as it happens, stomp on what you don&#039;t like, encourage what you do. It&#039;s your space. Try to treat it that way. Participate! Is that too obscure? I sincerely hope not.
• I would just like to take advantage of this tribune to derail Matt Haughey for choosing a Java-based, unstable solution, and proclaim the (uncontroversial) belief that Java is The Great Satan. Thank you.
• That belief is not only controversial, but also illogical. Don't blame Java for the faults of the JRun application server.
• Just so you know, I also blame World hunger, fuzzy lint, AIDS and the War On Drugs on the Java Programming Language.
• You forgot Poland. Blame Polish Jokes and Polish Sausage on Java too. And definately blame the proliferation of Starbucks stores (the connection is obvious), Paris Hilton, flesh-eating bacteria and the Fox News Channel. It's all Java's Fault. Of course, being Californian, I used to blame San Andreas for everything...
• Hey everyone! I'm from the future and I'm here to tell you that everything works out just fine!
• OK, so my kid (see upthread) is 3 today. FutureNickdanger speaks true.
• He does indeed. otanjoubi omedetou Claire-chan!
• Happy birthday, young monkey.
• Ah. Happy Birthday, wikkle munkey. Let me tutor said child in the ways of righteousness.
• oh yes, I believe I've seen a picture of the incredibly cute young lady on flickr?? happy birthday monkini!
• Monkeyfilter has no future, it only has a past.
• Happy birthday, Claire!
• Alright, everybody back into the TARDIS!
• *piles on congratulations*
• So the terrible twos are over? Yeay, Claire, you learned the concept of "no?" So many words to explore...my daughter surprised us at about age 3 when a driver cut in front of us on a busy street. She yelled "asshole" out the window, loudly and very nicely enunciated. Happy birthday!
• Happy birthdays and many more happy days to ye, Claire!