October 13, 2004

• because Amis soooo love having foreigners telling them how to vote.
• Orrrrr...you could join in on my thread from yesterday, if you're so inclined.
• Amis? I thought we were Yanks?
• blogRot has a point: but I must also confess that I do not care who wins the American election. Interesting post, though - odd that the left-wing Guardian should be the UK paper most fascinated with American politics.
• I do not care who wins the American election *American special forces chap walks up to Plegmund. AMI: Hmm, sounds like unpatriotic talk there, pilgrim. PLEG: What are you talking about? And how did you get in here anyway? AMI: We'll deal with that last part later. I'm talking about the election there, citizen. You're either with us or against us. PLEG: How can I be with you at all? I'm not even a United States citizen! AMI: If that's not treason, I don't know what is. PLEG: The truth? AMI: Don't play word games with me. All right, come along, you're being permenantly detained. PLEG: What the-!? You can't do that! I'm not an American. You're in my home! You don't have the right-! AMI: That hasn't stopped us before. Come along.
• Sandspider: yeah, I saw that. I just thought this was sufficiently interesting to merit a main page post. Looking at the replies so far, I may have misjudged.
• I must also confess that I do not care who wins the American election. Same here, pretty much. I just want the fucking thing to be over. Maybe then I can actually bring myself to bother watching the news again. or reading monkeyfilter...
• Hey dng, how about some puppies?
• I do not care who wins the American election. Really, Pleg? Good for you. I get a bit fed up with this "who's the greatest ultraleftist who never did shit but yelled the loudest on a website under an anonymous name" stuff. Let's get on with it in a pragmatic manner. In this matter I am fully in agreement with my good mate Fes, although we disagree on many things. Don't copy my example, kids. Petrol, fire, throw, all get burned. I'll be back tomorrow to sling more poo.</smal>
• Also, the tags are pretty fucked at the moment, admin.
• puppies
• Well, I definitely misjudged. Frankly I'm disgusted (although wearily unsurprised) to read that there are people here who not only don't care who wins the election but who actually seem rather smug about the fact. Whatever, d00dz. Hey, what does it matter if the US re-elects an insane, god-bothering war criminal who destabilises the middle east and sends anti-US, anti-west hatred through the sky? I mean - what are they gonna do? Destroy the WTC and kill thousands in your home town, or something? Pshaw. Let's stay real, eh sheeple? I do so love humanity.
• Well, I do care about who wins the American election. I care deeply, because of how it affects myself (with a government that slavishly follows America on almost all aspects of foreign policy), because of how it affects the people of the world, and because of what it will do to America, a country that I really, really kinda love, despite its eccentricities. But yeah, I still wish they'd just shut the fuck up and get it done, already. Things have become extremely shrill and unpleasant round here over the past few weeks, to the extent that I'm almost afraid to post for fear of being labelled a Reagan-loving, right-wing, homophobic moron simply for not being sufficiently hysterical. Oh, yeah, and the casual assumption that I'm an American really twats me off too...
• I'm not sure what you expect "sheeple" (hee!) to do, Decani. They can't vote in our election, the differences between the candidates are pretty much hashed out - did you seriously want each non-American member here to single out an American and try to personally persuade them to vote for Kerry? I'd bet most of the American mofites are already voting for Kerry. We've discussed the election here several times, and the rest of the web has great clots of info and discussion on the subject, and non-Americans, amazingly enough, have their own lives to lead. Even if the mofi rest-of-the-world managed to change the opinions of every American mofite who had planned to vote for Bush, what are we talking about, a dozen, tops? Spread out across the landscape? I doubt that it's they don't care what happens, it's that it simply isn't up to them. Not to mention they've been inundated with information and commentary about and, if they're anything like me, are sick of hearing it. Yes, we know there are those who feel that Bush is a Bad President; yes, there is at least some merit to those charges; yes, we will vote our consciences, whichever way they point. But to assume that a uniquely impotent group (considering the subject) will somehow rise up at your command and begin lobbying your point of view for you seems, well, a little wishful. To subsequently characterize them as sheep and express disgust for their not immediately jumping on your bandwagon seems, in turn, a little juvenile.
• Jesus. What what happen to Decani if I said I did care, and I wanted Bush to win the election?
• You would be branded as a wicked idiot who lacks perspective, obviously.
• *Passes out bananas to everyone. Okay, eat up. They're high in potassium and reportedly have a calming effect. I have to admit, I'm absolutely excited about the whole election, though in more of an anthropological vein. So I can understand when some monkeys, especially non-American monkeys are eager for: A) The whole dang thing to be over and B) For us to stop harping on it here on MoFi. For those monkeys who want to change the subject, I'd simply like to point out that for many simians, this might be one source where they can vent their fears and frustrations. And I'd say that makes MoFi an intrinsically good thing. Bush raises my Libertarian hackles nigh on into Jupiter's orbit. So in the past few weeks, despite my relative silence on the whole election with family and friends over the past few months, even I've been getting into aggravated discussions with peeps. But these discussions have already gone a bit too far off a ragged edge in many cases--and I fear the same might happen hear at MoFi, which, could be more of an oasis from the shrill discources that dominates the media. I still don't know all what this bitter business is I hear between SideDish and Spackle, but we need to step back lest more monkeys get mangled. Therefore, I feel it might be time to judiciously withdraw some of the raw emotions from the MoFi discussion until such time as the poo hits the fan one way or another. I mean, come on, Bush is many things, but he's no Turkmenbashi. You can take that in any number of ways. Please understand, I'm intersted in continuing to get links about the election up on the front page, and hope we have a November 2 thread much like the Oz elections page which I found interesting. As long as all the Ameri-monkeys vote--however they vote--I'll be happy. I'm sticking in the U.S. whatever the result is.
• A Modest Proposal? No more posts about Bush, Kerry or the Election until Nov. 3?
• I'd support it, but good luck with that.
• Heh. Fes. Nice. I'll eat a baby if Bush, Kerry, and the election are left off the front page from now until the 3rd.
• HA! You see that? He admits it! Republicans eat babies! You can't reason with people like that!
• Fes: you seem to have misunderstood where I was coming from. My previous disgusted post was directed only at those here who said or implied that they didn't care who won what is arguably the most important election of our times. You seem to be talking about people who don't care to discuss the issue any more, having made their mind up. Different people. dng: I'm not sure what your point is. What do you mean, what would happen to me? If you've made your mind up for Bush, that's not the same as not caring who wins, is it? So how is it relevant? Most on this thread: whatever you think about the advisability or usefulness of the Guardian's little gimmick, you seem to have missed the point that this is a new angle. It is not simply a bunch of yanks discussing the election, it is a reaction to the very real concern, anger, worry and frustration many, many non-Americans feel. Non-Americans? You know? Ring any bells? Those of us who reap the whirlwind of your nation's vicious insularity and arrogance?
• You can't reason with people like that! You can't reason... but you can season the baby Mmmm, paprika!
• You seem to be talking about people who don't care to discuss the issue any more, having made their mind up. Different people. My mistake, sorry Decani.
• From what I've read, foreigners can't even contribute to a campaign. But what happens if a foreigner mails in a few $90 cash contributions without a return address? Seems it would work and help the candidate. Campaign contributions go a long way... just ask Enron.
• hmmm... people complaining about the number of electionfilter posts. hey wait, i thought i was on monkeyfilter. how'd i end up on mefi instead? and since when is mefi light purple? seriously, i understand that folks get fed up with it. i have to turn the news off most days anyway, until 11:00 when jon stewart crawls out from his undisclosed location to tell me what's really happening. nice to see the rest of the world is as tired of the wait as i am.
• Sorry if I disappoint, Decani: I admire your zeal (and slightly fear for your blood pressure a bit), but it seems to me you overstate the significance of the election. If you think the world will embark on a new path if Kerry is elected, or even that American involvement in Iraq will end quickly, you're more of an optimist than I am. The USA seems to me to have tremendous inertia: it generally goes on behaving in much the same way whatever happens. It takes a leader of exceptional moral weight and insight to make it change direction, and although Messers Bush and Kerry are decent enough in their way, it's obvious that neither is in that category. So I really don't care which of them sits on top of Behemoth as he ambles forward. For a fellow Monkey, of course, I'll always go the extra mile, so if you want to explain why this election is a turning point, I'll grit my teeth and listen.
• I, for one, am very happy about the poltical posts. We are about to have, arguably, one of the most important elections in world history to date and it certainly warrants some discussion as does the breakdown of democracy, the dirty tricks, the lies that got us into a war etc.etc.. If you don't discuss that stuff what do you discuss? Flash games? Janet Jackson's nipple? the Olsen twins? People are free to ignore these posts- I don't know why they whine about it so much as it takes a lot more energy to post a complaint about a thread than to just skip it.
• Plegmund, How much inertia did the US display when Bush pushed us into an unprecedented pre-emptive war based on little or no evidence? Methinks not much. If you don't see that the US is radically different than it was four years ago, there's no reaching you.
• We are about to have, arguably, one of the most important elections in world history to date I'd argue against. We all like to believe we live in the most interesting and important times eva, but this election, while reasonably important, in my opinion does not even come in the top five in American history, let alone world history. Five easy ones here in the US that were more important include: Lincoln/McClellan Jefferson/Burr Kennedy/Nixon Roosevelt/Willkie Wilson/T. Roosevelt I might add Roosevelt/Dewey in there, for Roosevelt's selection of Harry Truman as VP and, ultimately, Truman's becoming the only man to ever deploy a nuclear weapon on a population center. Seems like a pretty big deal.
• Despite your excellent examples I stand by my contention that it is "one of the most important elections in world history" and it certainly can take its place with the others you mentioned. With the choice between a president who, apparently guided by some right wing religious fantasy, has alienated the world and seeks some sort of armageddon in the middle east (do we dare find out just how "historic" his second term will be?) and someone who wants to impose relative sanity to US foreign policy, yeah, I'd say it's important. Problem is if Kerry gets elected we'll probably never know how right or wrong you are. Or me for that matter.
• I agree with dng I just want the whole thing over and done with so we can go back to selling poisoned prescription drugs to the Americans undetected ;)
• Plegmund: "So I really don't care which of them sits on top of Behemoth as he ambles forward." I see that, and I find that reprehensible and incredibly blinkered of you. You and all the other Americans who seem incapable of seeing what an utter horror Bush is, and that it does make a difference - to the world, not just America - whether you continue to support a bunch of lying, vicious, ignorant, destructive, Orwellian war criminals or not. However, the point of my post - which some here seem determined to ignore - is that there are plenty of non-Americans who do care about this, and who are frustrated by their inability to influence the matter.
• You and all the other Americans Fuckwit.
• No no, Decani is right. All Americans are unfit to live.
• From what I've read, foreigners can't even contribute to a campaign. But what happens if a foreigner mails in a few $90 cash contributions without a return address? You can send it to me, rolypolyman, and I'll do my best at attempting to make sure I try to get in the right hands, if nothing comes up ;) I don't think they're allowed to accept anonymous donations, otherwise it'd be an easy way to circumnavigate all of our campaign finance laws
• The original post points to a terrible, counterproductive idea. I am an American, living in a swing state, and I can pretty well predict the result if a few thousand Decanis were to begin contacting my neighbors with the kind of arguments he or she has been making here--a massive Bush landslide! Please, foriegn monkeys, you do not understand the dynamics here. If you want to influence the election, and I can understand why you would, donate some money to one of the political parties and sit tight.
• is that there are plenty of non-Americans who do care about this, and who are frustrated by their inability to influence the matter... Iffin they isn't Georgie Soros, then theys ain't wurth lissenin to anyways, cuz Georgie brings cash. And further more, your worshipfulness, if you're not an Ami citizen, then obviously your country wasn't worth colonizing and your opinion, likewise, worthless. PS: you have until Nov 2nd to 'discover' significant natural resources in your native third world, but hurry because the colonize-me-next spots are going quickly.
• tracicle, can we implement a system where comments made by non-Americans appear in a different colour, say a sort of sludgy brown, or perhaps are accompanied by an icon of some description (an inverted cross, or a gay eagle)? Without wishing to sound optimistic or anything, such a system could potentially alert one or two people to the fact that not everybody here's an American. This would allow them to safely ignore the entire comment, as opposed to simply ignoring its context, nuance, argument and meaning.
• I would encourage our esteemed admin to exercise more of her editorial power and nix these endless political posts. I understand that this is an unreasonable burden on her time, but appealing to the users to stop is not going to work. Additionally, I would encourage her to sternly reprimand, if not ban, users who seem to have little to add besides puerile pseudo-banter more befitting a junior high playground.
• Decani, I realize this probably isn't how you mean to come across, but you seem to be saying that all Americans are completly oblivious to the issues at hand, and furthermore that we can't be trusted to vote intelligently. The last election was one of the closest in history. That alone shows a significant portion of us DONT like Bush. And did you completly miss the protests during the RNC? The idea of the rest of the world contributing to the election does make sense, as this certainly will affect everyone, not just the USA. But letter-writing most likely won't help. For every swing voter that is persuaded to vote for Kerry, there will be ten for Bush who would never have voted in in the first place had they not heard of "those damned Europeans trying to tell ME how to cast MY vote!" Quiet, LEGAL election contributions are pretty much the only way to help without also hurting. I emphasize legal, beacause if Kerry was elected and any hint of campaign finance lawbreaking were to surface, it would make him a very ineffective president. For the record, if I were old enough I'd be voting for Kerry. Biggest reason? I don't want Bush to be able to appoint a Supreme Court Justice. That and almost every move he makes has me convinced I'm living in Catch-22.
• tracicle, can we implement a system where comments made by non-Americans appear in a different colour, say a sort of sludgy brown, or perhaps are accompanied by an icon of some description (an inverted cross, or a gay eagle)? *adds it to the list* Right. These (to me) crappy political threads are getting dangerously close to nasty ad hominem attacks and childish namecalling. This isn't the first thread, not even in the last week since we reset the 'filter. I don't want to have to delete threads, so those of you who are so gung-ho about Bush losing the election would be better served to get out of the house and convince some of your community to vote for Kerry or something. I won't have petty arguments over an election around here. Decani, your tone in this thread has been condescending verging on outright rude. If you are determined to continue in the same vein I might have to suspend your account, and god forbid I'd feel awful if I had to do it, so don't make me. The same goes for a couple of others, who I won't call out unless I have to. Yes, I'm mildly irritated.
• I think we definately need that little pony, flashboy, since Decani's seems to be under the mistaken belief that Plegmund,* the most British person I have ever met, is American. *You have to guess which one he is, and your only clue is that all he lacks is a bowler hat. If I were casting the all mofi remake of the Avengers, he'd be first in line to play John Steed.
• Yo, Pleg, you need a bowler? Try this one, or perhaps, this full-on British one.
• I won't call out unless I have to You should at least warn them in personal email. Spare the rod, etc. They are never going to realize that they are being dicks unless it is explicitly pointed out to them by someone they listen to. You should also tell these people who think they can do your job better than you to just put a sock in it.
• If I were casting the all mofi remake of the Avengers, he'd be first in line to play John Steed. A-HA! That explains why I have a crush on Pleggy.
• I'm deeply flattered. I am indeed English, though I have a liberal-leaning American mother-in-law. I leave you to judge whether this last fact may have influenced my views in any way.
• Decani, I actually thought this one one of the rare US-election-related posts that was really worth posting. The Guardian's idea--matching up an individual British citizen with a registered independent in a crucial US swing state--is a fascinating one. Plus, the Guardian included information on how foreigners can LEGALLY donate money in a way that will help the US candidate they support. But as the development of this thread shows, this is a touchy issue. If any European Monkeys decide to write to a US voter, may I offer the following tips? --------- 1. Intrduce yourself, maybe with one or two concrete details about yourself. (Do you have children? A hobby? A job? A favorite beer?) It's human nature to place more value on the opinions of people who seem more real and concrete to us. (especially if those details are things we have in common with them.) 2. Apologize for interfering. You are, after all, stepping uninvited into somebody's house and making suggestions on how they should rearrange the furniture. You might explain your decision to write this letter by talking about the importance of this election for the entire world--you might say, for example, that America is the most powerful country in the world, and you know Americans take very seriously their responsibility to use that power for good, and you therefore thought an American voter might appreciate having as much information as possible in choosing how to vote. 3. Along those lines, make it clear that you aren't trying to tell them how to vote--you just want to make sure they have as full a picture as possible when making their decision. 4. Say something nice about America. A common rhetorical trope among American Euro-bashers is, "We did all these good things for Europe and they hate us anyway. Why should we care what they think?" So if you particularly value something America has given you or your country-- military assistance in World War II? The Marshall plan? Great works of cinematic art? J-Lo's latest album?--mention it. Emphasize that you believe America has the power to be a tremendous force for good in the world, and you are hoping to see a President who will live up to that potential. 5. Emphasize the good things about your candidate, rather than the bad things about the other guy. Apparently, at this point, most undecideds are people who believe Bush has done a lousy job, but aren't convinced that Kerry will do any better. Whichever candidate you support, the undecided American already believes bad stuff about the other guy. You need to make them believe good stuff about your guy. 6. Close on another polite and respectful note --thank them for taking the time to consider the opinion of a stranger, wish them good luck in the future, and let them know that if they ever have any opinions about your own elections, you'd be honored to hear them. 6. After you write the letter, wait a day, and then read it back, imagining that the situation were reversed--that you had just received this letter from a foreigner who had an opinion about how you should exercise your most fundamental right as a citizen in a democracy. Would this letter be respectful and thoughtful enough to have a positive effect on you? If so, don't delay. Mail it off. The US election is November 2! ----- I have no idea whether such a letter would sway an undecided. I think it would certainly help, though. I also think that, even if it doesn't affect the election, it could still lead to a thoughtful and positive dialogue between individual citizens of different countries, and that's an inherently good thing.
• jacobw: That is excellent advice, thank you.
• I have voted in every election since I was eligible. I am a registered Republican, but have no problem jumping sides if needed. However, just two weeks away and I am absolutely undecided. I simply don't know who to vote for. It seems that I have been so immersed in the hyperbolic partisan swill coming from both sides, that I'm numb. I would value the insight of a thoughtful non-American, because right now my flippin' coin is my only way out of this.
• Oh for Christ's sake. There seem to be a whole bunch of you who CANNOT READ ACCURATELY. To those of you who have leapt off the deep end and claimed I said or implied that all Americans are blah blah blah..., get a grip. Here's what I actually said: "You and all the other Americans who seem incapable of seeing what an utter horror Bush is" See that? "All THE OTHER Americans WHO SEEM INCAPABLE..." This is NOT a general insult against all Americans, for pity's sake. I think some of you people just like to play "beat up the newbie", don't you? That's certainly how it looks from where I sit. And tracicle, don't threaten me with the mother hen stuff. I'm rapidly losing patience with being continually misread and misrepresented here. You claim in the FAQ that anything is acceptable for posting but in my short time as a member I've seen more whining and bleating and squealing about ad homs and trolling than on any other message board I've been part of. Get over yourselves. I have made some uncontroversial, mild posts and I have expressed some general opinions here. I have directly and personally insulted NO-ONE, yet I have been directly and personally insulted by several people. I have been called immature, compared to Ann Coulter, accused of trolling and so on, yet I have seen none of the people responsible threatened with expulsion. If this pathetic schoolyard nonsense continues you won't have to suspend my account, I'll be gone. /bullshit detector
• In fact, screw it, tracicle. I'm out of here. You can all go back to your insular, cliquey little circle jerk now. Sorry to have caused such a disturbance.
• Decani - Plegmund, the person you were responding to, is not American, though your sentance structure ("You and all the other") seems to imply that you believe he is. This is why I (and quidnunc more succinctly) corrected you. It was also implied in Plegmund's comments, which if read carefully before responding, are quite decidedly from outside the Behemoth he describes. If this is not what you meant, or you genuinely did not realise or understand where he and others are coming from, please clarify this.
• (wandering off into introspective mode...long post ahead....you have been warned) Actually, I realise that this is a problem on many fronts. The wonder of anonymity on the internet has also taken away many of the social clues we receive in normal conversation, everything from gender and nationality to body and face language. Recently, I feel as though I have seen a few cases where there were implied assumptions about nationality or gender or sexual orientation which were not necessarily true. This is one example - Decani assumed a nationality for someone whose nationality was not stated. The pattern seems to be around assumptions that opinions must follow demographic characteristics - women think/feel this was, non-Americans that way. It is a kind of stereotyping, but what is really interesting is that it appears (from what I have seen) to be a largely internal stereotyping - a member of one group sort of staking out how that group feels about certain things. I am just reminded by all this how much I do not know about the people I converse with. I have had the honour of meeting Plegmund, and so I know that he is friendly, polite and emminently British, as well as a civil servent and has a talent with marker pen artistic shoutouts. But (until a recent thread on the Sims), I didn't know that he had daughters. (Unless, of course, that was all part of the plan to create a persona to cover up his true mission). Without it being stated, or a strict policy that everyone keep more informative profiles, we do know who among us is male or female, gay or straight, what nationality, who may be disabled or wearing a Star Trek T-shirt. We don't know who speaks English as a first language, or who does not. I've just realised that I have to be more careful what I assume about other people, and why they say what they say (since what they say is all I know about them). Time helps - you get to know someone's personality, learn little things about them. I know when quidnunc is being sarcastic/satirical, because I know a little more about him now (but also that's because he is so funny - and there is always the chance that the person I met is just a front for the collective performance art group he was accused of being).
• I have directly and personally insulted NO-ONE This is demonstrably false. Not that you're reading this, but I wish you clear skies and good winds in your journeys elsewhere on the internets. Sorry that MoFi didn't live up to your expectations.
• Good thoughts jb. Here
• Bananas and kittens for jb and BearGuy.
• Been waiting for that shoe to drop. Sigh of relief. Now, who wants their circle jerked?
• My two cents? So happy you asked! No problem with political posts, except when they bring out the worst in people, which they invariably do. So let's keep 'em few and far between, eh? A few 500+ comment FPP's for the debates and we can pretty much drag each others candidates through the muck to our hearts content. Do we really need to open the wounds anew each and every day? But, I understand, the urge is strong, particularly for those of us living in the U.S.A., so if you feel the allure of politics-filter may I direct you to a perhaps more suitable forum than our beloved bannana farm?
• Decani is pretty arrogant, and fond of his own opinions. But, maybe that's good? Stirring things up might make us think! Since I've been reading MeFi for so long, his challenges and the replies have not seemed all that train-wreckish. On the other hand, he's commented on some threads in a friendly way. His story on the supernatural thread was really good, for example, and showed that he could step out of his aggressive stance. So, do we have to get to a place where everyone is so terribly polite that we can't have a serious discussion with someone who has a wildly different viewpoint? I think we're grown up enough to deal with everything he's said. Others have started their stay here with things that annoyed me, but, in general they've abandoned the "in your face" thing, while sticking with their viewpoints. And, a bit of "in your face" might not be the worst thing we could go through. tracicle - I know you don't have time to concentrate on every thread that happens, but I do not see how he crossed some line to the point that you would have considered banning him. (Folks, jump on if you disagree.) I think most of us all too much alike and too comfortable in that. We really need more dissention to clear the sinuses.
• Decani may simply have been unfortunate in that his persona - which was often more than a little superior and patronising in tone (I'm being nice here) - happened to quite neatly personify a trend that I think's been pissing quite a few people off around here recently. Namely, that it's not enough to be strident in your own opinions, but that you should also loudly and unpleasantly decry anybody who doesn't meet your own levels of shrillness as "the enemy". Don't read what they say; assume what they are. There's a quite a few people who've started taking this approach, and it makes for crap argument. And (this might just be my impression, I admit) this often seems coupled to a level of reading comprehension that would be poor for a ten-year-old. (I mean, for example, in this thread, Decani didn't just assume that Plegmund was American, and insult him accordingly; he did so after commenting several times in the London meetup thread, a brief glance at which should at least suggest the possibility that Pleggers is British; even in his final "screw you" here, when his mistake had been pointed out several times, he still didn't get it...) It's not good conversation, it's not clever, and it shows an unpleasant level of disrespect for fellow monkeys. Decani might consider himself unlucky to have merely been the most obvious example of this particular monkey species, but if others can take the hint, that'd be a good thing. You know, I long for the days when we just argued about whether George Bush was shit or not; all this arguing about how loudly we should shout about his being shit is just depressing..
• ... assume that Plegmund was American, and insult him accordingly So calling someone an American is an insult now? ;)
• Yeah. Didn't you get any of the memos?...
• Sorry, I haven't checked my inbox for a couple days now. Seems you're right, it is an insult now. Huh, who woulda thunkit?
• It's not an insult - implying that he is too lazy/whatever to vote, when he is not even able to, was the insulting part. Not caring about an election in your own country is maybe lazy; not caring about an election in someone else's country that probably won't even change their behavior towards yours is perfectly understandable. So what is Kerry's position on softwood lumber? On Alberta Beef? Hmm... these issues seem to have been left out of the debates, when they are just about the most important to a lot of us north of the border. Is the US still putting tariffs on European steel?
• I wanted to send an email, but it was gone when I last checked. Sorry, Decani, I wish you wouldn't leave. Some people here are absolutists. I'm glad you reached out; I needed some help. I guess I'll just recede back into the shadows, like you. It was a squeak in the dark, but at least a squeak.
• Flashboy - but what is good conversation? Everyone agreeing with the majority opinion? Even our f8x has damped down his opinions, and I'm not sure that that's because we've convinced him. I truly don't think that getting rid of the burs under the collective saddle is heathly. Decani's persona was a lot arrogant, impatient and opinionated, but most of us can be (including me when I revert to school marm.) And, I've seen others come in here after lurking for too long at someplace like MeFi with similar personas, only to become less annoying as it occurred to them that aggression isn't a survival characteristic. And, while they've become more reasonable in discussion habits, they've also given us some differences to discuss. I dunno about you, but I like that.
• path: it is exactly to maintain those differences that we must maintain a certain civil disourse. If people try to express dissent, and are called immoral/lazy/stupid, they stop expressing dissent here. There are a few subjects I know I feel pasionately on - poverty is one. When someone starts going on about how the poor in the U.S. are the best off in the world, my blood does boil a little (apparently there are no other developed nations to be compared to). But I try to answer with information to inform them about the situation (whether on the internet, or in the classroom - of course, in that case it was the prof who didn't know what he was talking about, so I don't know how much I got through to him).
• There's an orphan "will" who would seriously like to be adopted into that first paragraph, wherever it best suits.
• Yeah, the point I was trying to make wasn't about differing opinions. I love the differing opinions, I wish we had a greater diversity of thought here, all of that. Thing is, Decani (and most of the other people I'm talking about) didn't really differ that much in opinion from many people here. But when everything gets all shouty like it has recently, people seem to stop reading the actual words, and just read the tone. Hence, a lot of cross people talking at cross purposes. Managing to pick a fight with guys who are actually trying to agree with you... well, that's a bit silly. Like you, I wish he'd stuck around, because there's plenty of people who I've really grown to like after initially being sceptical - they adapt more to the tone of the site, and the rest of us get to know them better and understand their character. It works both ways; it is, after all, a community. But, he decided to leave. Hey ho.
• In my ten-eleven years in the US, the last three years have been the most politically wearisome. They say that there are three kinds of leaders; the least of these are followed out of fear; the next best are followed out of love; and the best leaders are invisible and make themselves look superfluous. Clinton came close to that ideal. I can't wait for Bush and his chamchas to be ejected so we can all stop obsessing over politics. What a blessing it would be to return to endless arguments over whose country is better or which computer system is superior or all those garden-variety slingfests we have so few of these days.
• *waves at Princess Decani*
• I don't mind saying I didn't like Decani (what little I knew of him) and won't miss him. He had no opinions to offer other than that he hated everyone that didn't think like he did. He was negative, arrogant and insulting, and belligerent when called out for it. Good riddance.
• But he did give us "obdurate stupidity and primitive gullibility", which I use every day on the phone now, usually when talking to my mom. So that was nice.
• I'm sad that it all had to happen, and I like strong personalities, but Decani went beyond that. I think the characterizations of arrogance and condescension are more than fair. I don't like arrogance, I don't like moralizing, and I loathe shouting. I don't tolerate it in people with whom I disagree, so I won't tolerate in those with whom I agree. It's a tough temptation to resist, but I may have to just pass on the political threads for a while. I like outrage as much as the next guy, but I like the art/culture/dripping-with-weird posts better.
• Frankly, have been thinking of leaving, myself, because the tone of monkeyfilter has been increasingl;y depressing to witness. I came here for sake of amusement, I relish the light-hearted, amiable exchanges, and the wit, but detest the pointless bickering, and the way rude exchanges and remarks are on the increase.
• Comes down to disrespect. Decani didn't just differ an opinion, he was rude about it. Over and over. I get tired of reading rude posts, it makes me feel bad. beeswacky, others thinking of leaving, may I suggest a 'vacation' instead of a 'goodbye-forever?' A week away does wonders and it upsets me to see some of my favorite members contemplating stepping off into the void, never to return.
• This will clear up somewhat, I predict, once the election is over. US monkeys are just WAYYYYY worried about it right now. Once worry gives way to certainty (after a nyah-nyah cooling off period) I think people will get back to Hentai dictionaries and penis-abuse case studies.
• If bees leaves, I leave. No two ways about it. (Not that it matters.)
• No! bees! fuyugare! Don't leave! Fer cryin' out loud, go play in the nice posts, please!
• And where the heck are SideDish and surlyboi?!
• SideDish is gone (see tracicle's blog), as is spackle. No idea about surlyboi.
• Thanks for the pointer mct. I found the thread. And now I'm gonna go cry.
• Just read through the comments in tracicle's blog. Man, this is ridiculous. People leaving over stupid arguments, attacking each other over political rubbish, getting all high and mighty — this is starting to feel like MeFi. This is not good at all. Time for a vacation until this ridiculous election is over. See yinz in December, if any of you are still around.
• Surlyboi's last visit was 9/21. Goetter's was 9/7. Indica's was 10/7. PF's was 9/29. Blaise Bailey Finnegan's was 10/8. As far as I know, none of them announced they were leaving (though they might gave checked things out since without being logged in.) I'm sure there are others I haven't remembered, but if they've left forever I'll be desolate. So, should we look for their email addresses and see is the site has tanked, or if they just have other stuff to do? And, bees, if you leave, I'll mourn like a Victorian. Send me some hair so I can make a locket. I'll dress in black for the rest of my life, and cry daily. You don't want me to weep, do you? (Seriously, if you need to take a break I understand. I think we'll get back to something more comfortable for you when poliitcs aren't so all consuming.) I do love my bees.
• Said I've been thinking about it, (obviously) still here as yet. First came here in hopes monkeyfilter might retain its initial bright, congenial, more or less civil atmosphere, but lately been thinking the temper of the times is agin it. In the event I leave, will let it be known beforehand, probably on tracicle's blog, not here. It will not be because of any one monkey, nor because I allow myself to be dragged into some odious and futile contention, but simply because I've grown to think my slogging on is ineffective and pointless. Decided today to stick it out until mid-November, see how things are then. Wondering if sheer numbers of monkeys may be the problem, I really don't know whether a forum/community can support civility once a certain number is reached. My impression lately is the newly arriving monkeys have to try far harder to make a community-wide impression. And I suspect that's a part of the problem; perhaps we're making it too hard for newcomers. Is it that unless they screech and jump madly up and down and act prickly and play the bigot they feel don't attract much attention of the community? If so, more post allowing folk to introduce themselves would help.about that -- we had a lot of thsees in early daysd but they've died out recently, is my impression. /nitwit, ignoramus, in spite of self, fond of monkeys
• As usual, messed up ,y post, sorry -- please read "play the bigot because" etc
• Bees! Great idea! I'll try it.
• WOOOOSH! *Takes deep breath Man, that was close! Don't SCARE me like that Bees! bees, if you leave, I'll mourn like a Victorian. Send me some hair so I can make a locket. ME, TOO. ME, TOO. eh, Path? I think we'll probably have to settle for what we can get--have you seen Bees picture? GramMa sez let's play nice, Monkey boyz and girlz.
• I've been so involved in prepping for midterms, I would have missed this if path hadn't pointed it out to me. I'd have popped back and possibly found the Monkey Poet gone forever. I don't want my bees to leave. :( Just thinking about it has me almost wanting to cry... I'd miss your comments and your poetry so much, bees. I hope that at the end of your stated trial period here, you decide it's worth staying.
• BlueHorse - well, just takes a lock for a locket. I suppose even chest hair would do. (Though, it it were too curly, I'd be suspicious...)
• Heh. As well ye might bee, beautiful BlueHorse.
• Oops!!! Beautiful Path! It sounded so BlueHorse, I foolishly failed to look.
• Well, I like to pretend that I'm well behaved. It makes it much easier to shock the children when I'm of a mind.
• Ah, dear path, well we know your heart is ever on the road to Old Tashkent, and not in the least bit well-behaved, ye shameless huzzy!
• Oh, it's not synchronocity after all. heh
• Would ye care, now, to venure by caravan down the Old Silk Road, Mr.Knickerbocker?
• = venture
• Well, no I wasn't planning on going there. But if you're going that way, could you pick me up something? Like, uh ... old silk? Cause I think I have some, but not much. And whatever old silk I have left is probably almost expired. Oh, and some thumbtacks too, if you don't mind. Thanks, just leave 'em on the counter when you get back.
• Bees will be more likely to find thumbscrews than thumbtacks in Turkmenistan, but I'm sure he'll do his best. Is it ok if they have the countenance of Turkmenbashi on the part you push (or screw tighten up,if there are no tacks?)
• Bees will be more likely to find thumbscrews than thumbtacks in Turkmenistan, but I'm sure he'll do his best. Is it ok if they have the countenance of Turkmenbashi on the part you push (or screw tighten up,if there are no tacks?)
• eeew.
• Acquiring thumbscrews ye will have to do for yourselves, I will not be a party to it. I'm not so sure about thumbtax, now, that sounds equally awkward to tuck in one's luggage. Old silk...um...how old?
• The freshest you can find, if'n it's not a problem. Old silk tends to spoil fast. Oh, and the thumbtacks are easier to handle if you turn them around, if that helps.
• Gave thumbtax the axe. Old silk is usually rotten, and doesn't store as well as cotton. So your silk may be fresh and stay finer, I will fetch ye silkworm cocoons once I go to China.
• Well, I'm still here. I have a couple of things to say even though it's obvious this thread has moved on.... Monkeyfilter is a great, great place! Because of its monkeymembers. The best thing we monkeys can do to help maintain this site is to remain here, even during snarky times. The snarkiness will come and go. The essence of Monkeyfilter remains only if its members remain. There will always be new members, there will always be change. The only way we can have a feeling of continuity is by sticking it out. Hopefully, others who have left will return. As far as political threads, let me say this; The majority of Americans are deeply concerned about some of their most basic rights. Concerned about America, period. This is a very strange time for us USians. Scary times, many of us have never experienced stuff like this. We need to be able to vent. I would hope that my fellow monkeys would remain understanding and bear with us until November 2nd. It's not too far away. This will die down to a very small whisper when all is said and done. As for such strong voices like Decani's, I like it. Sorry if that bothers other people, but I enjoy hearing from someone who is so very different from me and others I regularly hear from. It's refreshing, if brutal, at times. I realize that it can be seen as outright rudeness, but it is my understanding that many people who appear like that, really don't realize it, for them, it is normal convesation, lively and forthright conversation. If Decani or anyone else who comes across so strongly chooses to keep being that way, I would assume they are strong enough to accept the consequences of being piled on if others so choose to respond that way. This should not convince monkeys to leave, it should encourage them to speak their mind on the matter and move on, or as others have said, take a vacation. In other words, Monkeyfilter will wax and wane. It is the way of mother nature and the human species. I hope everyone stays, beeswacky, Decani, et al.
• Further to the original post, our own Miss A's blog provides two interesting links: a report on local reaction, (by Dru Sefton, aka SideDish); and a retaliatory campaign. Meanwhile House Speaker Dennis Hastert has called for a review of the Guardian's press accreditation...
• Well, I very much enjoyed Decani's presence. Frequently found his remarks amusing. A pity he's gone, he enlivened the place. Must have been rather wearing to have to run counter to things all the time. Playing the gadfly is serious work, but such a persona has limited possibilities. I daresay his next incarnation will be more flexible. If we are lucky, he'll come back.
• /what Indica said.
• Ah, what can be harvested in a poo thread. Monkeyfilter: Absolute frustrated impotence Monkeyfilter: Well, this isn’t much, but it’s something. Monkeyfilter: You’re either with us or against us. Monkeyfilter: You’re being permanently detained. Monkeyfilter: I may have misjudged. Monkeyfilter: I just want the fucking thing to be over. Monkeyfilter: Don’t copy my example, kids. Monkeyfilter: I’ll be back tomorrow to sling some more poo. Monkeyfilter: Well, I definitely misjudged. Monkeyfilter: Branded as a wicked idiot. Monkeyfilter: Stop harping on it. Monkeyfilter: Step back lest more monkeys get mangled. Monkeyfilter: You can’t reason with people like that. Monkeyfilter: I don’t know why they whine about it so much. Monkeyfilter: puerile pseudo-banter more befitting a junior high playground. Monkeyfilter: Yes, I’m mildly irritated. Monkeyfilter: Just put a sock in it. Monkeyfilter: You have been warned. Monkeyfilter: All part of the plan to cover up the truemission. Monkeyfilter: Been waiting for that shoe to drop. Monkeyfilter: Now who wants their circle jerked. Monkeyfilter: My two cents? So happy you asked. Monkeyfilter: Reading comprehension that would be poor for a 10 year old. Monkeyfilter: So calling someone an American is an insult now? (the ? is optional) Monkeyfilter: Didn’t you get any of the memos? Monkeyfilter: I dunno about you, but I likethat. Monkeyfilter: Garden-variety slingfests. Monkeyfilter: Obdurate stupidity and primitive gullibility. Monkeyfilter: Art/culture/dripping-with-weird Monkeyfilter: The essence remains. Monkeyfilter: It is the way of Mother Nature. (these last two--how Zen!) Cynnbad, come on outta the corner and add your (diplomatic) two cents. We need voices of reason and calm here. People are free to ignore these posts- I don't know why they whine about it so much as it takes a lot more energy to post a complaint about a thread than to just skip it Kamus, you are so right. Isn't it amazing how these posts all seem to run from vitrolic, to vicious, to somebody quitting, to slamming the somebody, to self-rightousness, through resignation, and finally, acceptance?
• I was watching "Max Headroom" (1987?) on TV the other night... MAX:" ... parrots are one rung up from politicians. At least you can tell politicans are lying - thier lips move." approx. Oh how true.
• As someone who doesn't know Decani's history at all, I think you all were too harsh on her (him?). She was right that you misread her sentence about "the Americans". For example, I have no idea why the quidnunc kid called her a "fuckwit". I would appreciate an explanation. I would also hope that Decani forgives us silly monkeys and comes back.
• In quidnunc's defense, I completely understand his reaction. He's met Plegmund, a couple of times. He knows him far better that the rest of us monkeys (other than those London-meetup-mofi's) and, I believe, understood far better what Plegmund was saying than Decani did. I imagine he felt a bit of outrage that Pleg was called out like that. While I don't think he needed to, quid did apologize to tracicle directly, so it's not as if he didn't acknowledge the possibility his reaction wouldn't go over well. Frankly, while I have enjoyed Decani particulary 'style' I would far rather s/he left the fold than quid or Pleg. They are part of what makes Monkeyfilter for me. And they never need to apologize for truth.
• tensor - it was a lot more complicated than that. There were several threads, and it wasn't about "the Americans", but about Decani assuming that someone who did not agree with him/her must be an American, and a Bush supporting one at that, despite clear evidence to the contrary (at least on nationality - Decani was at the time participating in a thread about the London meet-up). It's about a) looking at who you are speaking to, listening to what they say, and not making assumptions about them (this has happened several times lately, by different members) and b) remembering that they are a person too. No, "fuckwit" was not productive or polite (I assumed it was provoked by the blind assertion that Plegmund was American, and couldn't possibly understand how non-Americans felt about the Bush government - not an ad hominem, but a very uninformed remark, showing that he/she was not reading carefully before responding.) Strangely enough, I find insults like that bother me less - they are so general, they don't feel personal. Maybe it's because I will just ignore it. The worst is being called anal - there is no repsonse, any action is taken to hoist you by your own petard. I have an idea - what if when the conversation gets does excessively ad hominem, we call each other poo-poo head. Then there will be no question about whether it is ad hominem or not, and perhaps the childishness of it all will shake out the desire to call each other poo-poo heads (only in fancy adult words).
• jb, my brother-in-law and I regularly call each other stupidheads. It's grand. Otherwise, what's done is done and Decani's account is indeed still open at present. I think maybe enough's been said on the topic for now. In fact, I've completely forgotten what the original point of this thread was except that Pleg has dual citizenship or something.
• Ah, thanks for the explanations, Darshon and jb. As I said, I am not familiar with Decani's history, so if this wasn't an isolated incident it is certainly understandable. If I've ever called you anal, jb, I abjectly ask for your forgiveness. (I think I might have since you brought it up, but I don't remember and can't verify it.) Sorry, tracicle. I'll shut up now.
• Not that I remember - it's just a pet peeve, for the reason stated.
• For me, being called anal I think would not sting so much as being called banal or lacking a human touch. (Which last, if you're a silly bee, doesn't come easily.)
• bees, you're certainly anything but banal. <3
• Dear Limey assholes ...
• *hearts tracicle* ...that participation in subverting the US presidential election can be criminally charged and perhaps even charged as spies... Ah, yes, like Scalia was?
• Thanks Wolof You radical leftwingers are worse than the Taliban. I suggest you stand back and take a good hard look at yourselves. PS: When do you propose to add Michael Moore to your staff of lunatics? Could somebody stand back and take a good hard look at me? I'd do it, but I'm to busy being worse than the Taliban, by doing things like... um.. voicing ideas on the internet. I'm so dastardly.
• LOOK! UP IN THE SKY! a sign, methinks
• For anyone who is still interested in the initial post that started it all the Guardian has written a follow up article that includes various reactions to the idea. For the rest I offer a large collection of kittens
• kitten romping kitten bouncing kitten halfway up a tree kitten wading (!) in the water kitten meeting a puppy kitten posing on a bridge kitten lost among the flowers kitten being cute and furry displaying all its kitten-powers