September 24, 2004

• Like most holidays, the day comes up and I don't realize it until the day of the election. The only exception here are mid-term elections and presidential elections. I consider myself fairly knowledgable about politics, and I still wouldn't feel comfortable voting in anything lower than a state house election. Besides, in order to track down information on these smaller candidates, you have to go far and wide to track down even the candidate's background. That amount of time could be used for other things, like family, creating art, work, or enjoying life. And this is coming from someone who is volunteering time for voter registration. Another thing to consider: Most employers don't give election day off unless it's a presidential election. Even then, only a few do. When you consider how complicated modern life is, with the long commutes and long workdays, it's a wonder that the amount of people that do vote is as large as it is.
• I'm amused by the correlation between voting and getting beaten-up at school - cos yes I do vote, even in local council elections (I think I've missed one since 1983) and no, school wasn't a very happy time for me - but I've never seen the connection ... It takes a few minutes to do, a little longer to think about and I don't think any excuses for not doing it are valid.
• When you register, they mail out cards telling you where to vote - maybe you need a "save the date" mailing telling you when to vote?
• Most employers don't give election day off unless it's a presidential election. Even then, only a few do. In the US, Employers are required by law to give you time off work to go vote if you can reasonably prove that you would be unable to do during non-work hours (i.e. long commute, weird hours, academic obligations during non work hours, etc.)
• I miss elections occasionally but I try to vote in every election, even if I don't vote in every race. I have missed a few times, but I can only think of a handful of elections (including primaries and runoffs) I've missed since I came of voting age. In Houston, where I've done all my voting until now, there's a metric buttload of judicial elections. A lot of the times I don't know enough about the candidates to vote for one or the other, although I have sometimes known enough to vote against the incumbent. There's very little reliable information about the judicial races and the bar poll is very political, so I don't trust its results to show me candidates who have qualities I want, as opposed to qualities good for local lawyers. Another reason I sometimes omit particular races is when there's only one candidate, or only one major-party candidate and I can't stand the third-party candidate. I've done my share of voting for Libertarians and Greens as protest voting in races where Texas Democrats didn't field a candidate and the Republican is a loon, but I hate going in to vote and finding that out of 50+ races, 20-25% are unopposed.
• I've had people actually say the following to me: "Well, I don't even know who the candidates are." "There's no real difference between parties, anyway." "I don't think I'm registered." "I forgot it was election day." "Who cares who wins? They're all corrupt." "I don't really understand what the issues are." "The military industrial complex votes with money, and money is what talks these days." "Oh, they say anything until they're elected, and then it's the same old story." And, saddest of all, "I didn't think my vote mattered."
• i helped report a story on this very topic during the last election. excerpt: Listen to David Carter, a 62-year-old street musician from San Francisco, as he takes five between saxophone solos to explain his 10-year hiatus from the voting booth: "What difference does it make? I'm a black man in the United States, baby! It don't mean nothing. They're still killing us. So why am I going to vote for a white man?"
• I will admit, I missed the primaries. I knew they were coming up, but I had no idea that they were that day until I went into work and saw the stickers.
• Because voting for a politician makes you an accomplice to their crimes. Adapted from an old, old Life in Hell comic by Matt Groening
• oh and BTW, some reporters choose not to vote because, A) in some jurisdictions voters must declare a party, and they don't want to be affiliated that way and B) some feel that's too much of a participatory role, especially if they cover politics. this has been a SideNote from SideDish
• I occassionally miss some local elections, though not many. My choices for school board around here are usually between the candidate who promises to put the Ten Commandments in every classroom and the candidate who promises to require students to declare their Christianity before every exam. I miss them because I am unaware of them, or I am not familiar enough with the candidates' positions. Somehow I managed not to vote for President in 92. It would have been the only time I would have actually voted for the winner. I am wondering how old I will be before I vote for the winner in a Presidential Election. This will be my fifth election. That bastard Perot is the reason I have yet to vote for a winner.
• some feel that's too much of a participatory role, especially if they cover politics. I have to say....that's dumb. I can accept not taking a public position because you don't want to show bias, but your vote is between you, the booth, and occasionally the supreme court. If you are intelligent enough to be exposed to those sorts or moral dilemmas, you should be intelligent enough to eliminate any sense of bias in your reporting that you may have because you're covering a candidate that you voted for. Or so I think.
• most journalists don't do a lot of things: sign petitions, join activist organizations, contribute money to charities... because they're journalists
• And you know, flinging guilt trips at us is JUST the way to encourage us to vote! I feel so motivated! I didn't vote last pres. election because I don't drive, and wasn't quite sure where the polling place was in the town I'd just moved to. (Oddly, that town JUMPED on getting me to switch my registration. Which is odd, because I'm not even registered with any parties.) I didn't vote in the presidential election before that because, after bumming a ride, I made it to the polls just as they were packing up. I fully intend to vote this time, as I believe the polling spot is right across the street. Assuming I can hack through the bureaucracy and get my official residence changed again. (I'm not a vagrant, I've just moved three times in the last eight years.) I don't vote in county/city/local/this-block/this-corner-of-this-block elections because, quite frankly, I am irritated at how much bureaucracy this area has and don't see any way it actually has an effect on me, except to "create more jobs" and "stimulate the economy" by creating an extremely bloated local government. It may be normal, but I have a feeling it's not.
• What gets my goat are the people who don't vote because they feel it's a waste of time to vote for a candidate who might lose. A girl I worked with awhile back actually went and voted for the winning Presidential candidate just because he was ahead in the polls, I guess to feel good about it or something. Geez.
• It's an odd thing with the journalists, sidedish. I should see if I can find a good Journalistic Ethics class to sit in on and see if there's good reason that I'm not thinking of, if it's just part of the indoctrination, or if, perhaps, it's sloppy thinking/an excuse. Wurwilf, I tend to move about once a year, so I can certainly sympathize. I missed the last Presidential election because of a series of mishaps partially related to moving and mostly related to not being with it. It was foolish, but at least I wasn't living in Florida at the time.
• Assuming I can hack through the bureaucracy Gosh, last three times I've moved in the past five years all I had to do was go to the post office and fill out a voter registration form.
• Lucky for you. My girlfriend, for instance, has attempted to register three times since she's moved, with no luck. She's called the election board once and was given the runaround. She'll try again soon, but it's not always just filling out the form.
• I do if I can. Unfortunately, I have no vote in any general election, both in my country of origin and my country of residence. I complain like anything: no one in any government represents me.
• rolypolyman, that bothers me, as well. In some ways, it's a natural byproduct of the "Your vote matters" way of thinking, because if you associate yourself with a loser in something that matters, you project the loss onto yourself. However, I think it's counterproductive. I think if the politicians saw a greater level of activity at the polls, they would be more concerned about what the people really think. If we can get a significant jump in voter participation for this year's Presidential election, politicians will hopefully think twice before trying to "get away with" their various antics.
• I just need to ask this. What's the deal with registering as a Republicrat or Demolican? Having to make your bias a matter of public record seems silly to me, even if you don't have to vote that way.
• And, saddest of all, "I didn't think my vote mattered." That's not sad, that's true. Except in the most local races, the probability that your vote will make or break a tie -- the only instance in which it has any actual effect -- is infinitesimal. You might get it occasionally in municipal or county elections, but in federal elections? Nah. At which point someone will bring up Florida, but even that wasn't one vote. 500-odd isn't one. Only one is one, and even in Florida, one person staying home or switching their vote would have no effect whatsoever on the outcome. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't vote. It just means that if you go vote because you honestly think there's any reasonable chance that your vote will swing the election, and therefore matter, you're as foolish as someone planning their retirement around winning the lottery. Go vote because it's important to go vote irrespective of whether your vote makes any difference at all.
• It's for the Primaries, because they don't want people who are registered to be able to both vote for the candidate of their choice in their party and for a poor candidate of their choice in the opposing party.
• Gosh, last three times I've moved in the past five years all I had to do was go to the post office and fill out a voter registration form. That's nice. You have a post office in your town, and time outside work during which post offices are open? Good for you.
• Snark aside, I believe to change registration I have to go to a DMV, update my state ID, and thereby change my address. DMVs run on bankers' hours, generally. I don't. I hope that one of the days my sister takes a vacation day on a Saturday, she'll remember to pick me up early enough in the morning that I can do this. If not, well, no votey. But hey, if you want to judge without knowing the particulars of my situation, go right on ahead! It's simpler that way.
• sandspider, see? sometimes it's because their voting records can be dug up and used against them. to this day, people are trying to figure out bob woodward's political affiliation. a lot of reporters at the washpost have removed themselves from the political process. as i said, in many cases it's a sacrifice to objectivity, especially if you're covering the election. if you're trying to decide who to vote for, it's tough to report in an unbiased manner. that said, i want to stress it's not all journalists. i vote. but then again, i don't cover politics.
• That's nice. You have a post office in your town, and time outside work during which post offices are open? Good for you. Sorry, I didn't realize that I'm one of those "lucky" people that can go to a post office on their lunch break. Or register online. Or register by mail. Or get an absentee ballot delivered to my very own mailbox, weeks before the election. I'll keep quiet from now on - you showed me real good.
• "Who got your vote for president?" Walter Isaacson, Time I voted in Yonkers, N.Y., this morning and cast votes for such things as local judgeships and bond issues. However, I did not cast a vote in the presidential race (or for that matter the Senate race). In races that Time has to cover, I felt it made sense to remain neutral and nonpartisan by not forcing myself to decide, even in my own mind, whom I favored. I don't proclaim this to be a grand matter of principle, merely an approach that I felt personally most comfortable with.
• It's the happy, sunny tone here that keeps me coming back. One of Dennis Miller's actually funny ones: "Just remember, if you don't register to vote... then you won't be drafted for jury duty. Just something to think about." To NE and Sandspider, not all areas have closed primaries. Some do, some don't. In those that don't, I really don't see the point.
• Hey now, happy thoughts, It's Friday and the bananas are plentiful.
• Or get an absentee ballot delivered to my very own mailbox, weeks before the election In many states, you have to prove that you will be out of your voting district on election day for that to happen. go to a post office on their lunch break Maybe it's not within driving/walking/public transport distance or the person has none of the above due to carpooling. Or register by mail. There's this thing called the post office, see... Or register online Some states, like the one I reside in, ask for a driver's licence or state ID number, which, as wurliff succinctly stated is not an easy thing for some people to obtain.
• I see now that I shouldn't have commented. Even though the OP didn't mention a country (although most of the world wonders who might be allowed to vote for a head of housing and urban development), we seem to have got a Nov 2. thread. The MeFites are here, I tell you, and they are us.
• Even though the OP didn't mention a country..., we seem to have got a Nov 2. thread. I'll quote the post: "Why don't you vote?" Why would I have a reason why I don't vote in Japan or the UK?
• I have voted in every election since I was 18, I think, at least for president and governor. To me the reason why people fail to vote in the US: it doesnt really matter that much to them what the result is. By that I mean, the effect on the day-to-day lives of most people is zero. We can hear all the negative excuses about "its so corrupt" or "all politicians are so awful" but the fact is, our system works so well that no matter who wins, most of our lives go on just as before. Yeah, I hate Bush, but he hasn't put me or anyone I know in jail for bashing him. I'm not saying this to excuse people but merely as a statement of fact- there's a limit to how much the average person will care if it doesn't affect him in a very direct way. Self-interest, evolution, blah blah blah. I also think, though, many Americans fail to understand our government or how they can make a difference. In my school, Civics (government) was taught for 1/2 of one year. I am in favor of teaching it for a whole year, every year, grade 6-12 at least.
• SideDish, I appreciate the insight and apologize for the dismissive tone of my initial response. However, as your report says, it is ironic. The recent trends of "objectivity" bother me, and it's nothing I can solve, per se, but that doesn't mean I won't sit in the back from time to time to complain. I agree that the journalists should feel free to keep their votes private, and I can see the complication of declaring a party, but I will say here and now that, if I were a political journalist, and if I ever become a political journalist, I won't stop voting just because it might seem some sort of conflict of interest. If my boss threatens to fire me for voting, or even something more subtle discouraging me from doing so, I will welcome the excitement that my disobedience will bring. And if I do become a political journalist, but I stop voting, I welcome being called upon my selling out. So, back on topic, why am I interested in all this? I am thinking of trying to encourage people to vote. The people who don't feel their vote will make a difference, well, that's fine. I don't agree, but I'm not focusing on them. I want to focus on the people who, like myself, want to vote, think that voting is a good thing, and find myself not voting. Why, and how do I fix it? I have some ideas, but I'm trying to collect more data than from merely myself. I included the whole world because there's no reason why, in many cases, the information can't be useful. If there's higher voter turnout in the UK than in the US, why, and what can be done to change the latter? If the turnout is even vaguely the same, then there are probably similar underlying reasons for both areas. That sort of thing. Yes, the timing is because of an increasing awareness of politics brought about by the upcoming Nov. 2 election, and because of all the related activity, but the purpose is for something hopefully more substantial. Oh, and for people who are shaky on Civics and who don't mind a little profanity in their humor, I highly recommend America, the Book from the Daily Show staff.
• "There's no real difference between parties, anyway." "I don't think I'm registered." "I forgot it was election day." "Who cares who wins? They're all corrupt." "I don't really understand what the issues are." "The military industrial complex votes with money, and money is what talks these days." "Oh, they say anything until they're elected, and then it's the same old story." Bees: The sad thing is there isn't any difference between the parties. I'm a former Dem, now don't you dare align me with either one. I'm equally horrified by both. Registration to vote should be as easy as applying for a fishing permit or buying a lottery ticket. It isn't. Why not? I don't think people forget, I think they get so sick of the hype, the lies, the pompous posing--they just tune out. They WANT to forget. We're all carrying a lantern in broad daylight, but the prospects get dimmer the more light that is cast. Understanding the issues?!??! Good word man, NONE of us can fully understand the issues. I wish I understood ONE issue--historically, environmentally, economically, politically, culturally--who's got the time? And where to find the information to form a critical opinion--CNN? AP? Gimme a break. Ya read, ya think, ya talk, ya go back and read between the lines, ya take a breath, and ya flip a coin. And then take time for the follow-up: such a joy to watch your chosen candidate claim where he stands, then vote 180 degrees from such, or add a rider to a bill that effectively guts what his constituents expect from it. "The military industrial complex votes with money, and money is what talks these days." Money has always spoken loudly. I believe there was a point in time America was a democracy. The next eight years will prove interesting. And, saddest of all, "I didn't think my vote mattered." Talk to folks in Florida about how their votes mattered. Talk to folks overseas about how their votes matter. That is a sad thing to hear someone say. It's even sadder to believe. Two words why my voting in a presidential election is useless: Electorial college. Oh, I'll be out there voting come November. It's my version of the two-middle-fingers-up gesture to BushCo. But I don't expect much even if he's outtathere. *Cranks up stereo *watches previews of new military/industrial puppet show Meet the new boss Same as the old boss
• Registering to vote - When I worked for a Congressman, we often made house calls. Call your local representatives, they want your vote and have volunteers that register voters. Luckily in Texas, by voting in the primaries will it determine your party affiliation. I think knowing the polling locations make a big factor for people casting their votes. If I have to find it on Election Day, I
• Why don't I vote? Because I already know who will win the election. The multi-national mega corporations will win the election. And they're not even on the ballot.
• A common critique among anarchists and the like is as follows: If the system is illegitimate and corrupt, than voting is nevertheless your granting legitimacy to the system. FWIW I'm not an anarchist (a practicing one, anyway; there are admirable things about that philosophy but it's impractcal on the scale of an entire society, alas), and I'm even voting for a major-party candidate for the first time in a couple of elections in November. But I'm pretty disillusioned with voting, and if Kerry gets into office and disappoints then I'm done with it.
• Registration to vote should be as easy as applying for a fishing permit or buying a lottery ticket. It isn't. Why not? This is largely a matter of where you live, I think. It's painfully easy here. When I moved here, I went to library to get a card. They asked me if I wanted to register. A few weeks later I went to get a new DL. They asked me if I wanted to register. Like falling off a log. If it's not that easy everywhere, then by God it should be.
• Incidentally, in 2002 the Help America Vote Act was passed. The purpose behind that was to give states money if they came up with a good plan for using it in a way that would encourage people to vote. Hopefully that is doing some good, and perhaps older experiences with voting being a bureaucratic nightmare will become less common. At least for the US Monkeys.
• i read this as: The military industrial complex votes with monkey
• sandspider: another way of looking at it -- how would you have felt about woodward uncovering watergate had you known that woodward was a staunch democrat who had voted democratic in every election? just something to ponder.
• I can see how some people would interpret it, sidedish, but I'm more concerned with the facts. Things that are reported should be facts. Verifiable and verified facts. Not conjecture, at least for the objective news, not interpretation. Facts. If you have facts, then I don't care who is reporting them. Facts could be left out, but that's what other reporters are for, and it'd be no worse than the situation that we're in today. In many ways, it would be better. I know, it's a simplistic viewpoint that I have, and it's one that I recognize. However, when I try to argue politics, I try to focus on relevant facts, and I fight rhetoric and spin whenever I can. It would be more difficult for someone who is actually in journalism, rather than a sideline/backseat person such as myself, I freely admit. In and of itself, I don't negatively judge a journalist for voting record or party affiliation when I judge their work. I judge by entertainment value, ability to properly use logic and convincing arguments, and willingness to admit when they're wrong. Maybe a couple of other little things here and there, but nothing as important as the ones above. Other people, though, do make those judgments, and careers have been altered or ruined due to public perception. My position is far more rare than most, and I've already admitted that I don't read or watch local news, so my opinion isn't necessarily all that important to the actual journalists.
• Don't try to understand, shawnj; snap judging (with or without passive-aggressive bashing) is so much easier. It's faster, and you feel so much better about yourself afterward! Keep it up, and we can be as welcoming and friendly as Mefi!
• Sandspider, that does make sense. But if you only get one vote in the primaries as either a D or R, you could still vote for the main loser in the other party, couldn't you? Or are there a ballot for each party, or do Ds and Rs vote in different locations? The only elections that I've not voted in are the first few provincial elections after I moved to start school. For years, these elections were held in either September or May, quite inconvenient for students, particularly those in new cities. Another interesting topic would be the declining percentage of the population that votes. It seems to be an international issue. It is because fewer people actually do vote, or perhaps it's due to people voting once, but being registered multiple times? If I get three voters cards but vote once, my personal turnout is officially 33.3%.
• >>I judge by entertainment value ouchie. oh, enough talk of journalistic ethics, back to nonvoters! sorry for momentary derail
• I vote in every election. I also take my kids with me to the polling booth when I can. I also try to instill in them that even though my one vote may not swing the election, it does still matter. I really don't buy any of the arguments people make for not voting. Is it too much to ask to forego the couple hours a year it takes to cast your vote? What is that, a couple episodes of Survivor? a few chapters of a book? Several threads in your favorite Blog?
• Is Woodward a life-long Democrat? I didn't know that but always suspected it. I just hate how the Repugs are so certain that Dan Rather is a Democrat. Personally, I've heard that he's registered with the Monster Raving Loony Party. As for me, the only time I didn't vote was November 2002, when I was going through the worst of my heart problems and depression (I could've gotten an absentee ballot, but hey, I WAS DEPRESSED!). I make all the primaries and local elections (although the only local vote I felt really empowered about was when I lived in Torrance, one of the small independent cities in the big L.A. metro), and even when I vote for a major part candidate I've voted with the majority less than one-third of the time. It doesn't discourage me, it actually makes me feel like I don't have to share the responsibility for the crimes and mistakes of the winning candidates. The way I see it, a non-voter is giving their passive endorsement of whatever the government wants to do. Period. I've beleived since I was old enough to vote that the U.S.ofA. needs an Extreme Constitutional Makeover, dumping the Electoral College and the 2-votes-per-state Senate (but then, I live in California, the state that gets the most shafted by that system). Bicameral legislature with one house by districts (with anti-gerrymandering rules written in), one 'parliamentary' house (give the Greens and Libertarians a couple seats, whydontcha?). I kinda like the California system that elects Governor and Lieutenant Governor (or Vice-Governor) seperately, along with Secretary of State, Treasurer, and other 'cabinet-level' positions. Take elections off the hard-and-fast schedule and do the 90-day-or-less campaigns thing most sensible nations do. Term limits are good, but not so short! Ten years or 3-or-4 terms makes more sense. And nobody gets a six-year term. NO California-style ballot initiatives please; all these are is a sign that the system DOESN'T work, they do nothing to fix it. And, to get back on topic, give a tax deduction to everybody who votes. (Yeah, I worry about voting privacy issues, but I still think it would be the only incentive that MEANS something.) And that's what I wouild do if you elected me Absolute Ruler (well, after abusing my power for fun for a few months, that is).
• Heh. Don't worry, SideDish, my view of entertainment value is judged by quality of writing and the like rather than scandal-worthiness or similar. Plus, std. disclaimer, those items were not in any particular order. On Preview: Hooray for wendell being absolute ruler!
• *i feel it necessary to go on the record as saying that i, personally, have no knowledge of bob woodward's political leanings and was using the aforementioned "example" in simply, um, an "examplerary" way. thank you.*
• Regarding the journalist question: There's a huge difference between voting and giving money to politicians. When I worked as a reporter at a large daily paper, my bosses always reminded the staff to vote. They never promoted any particular candidate or party, our votes were secret, so I don't see any ethical problem. In Tennessee it takes about three minutes to register to vote. When you move, you write your new address on the back of the voter card and mail it to the election commission. They send you a new one in a few days. That's it. You people in other states can simply fill out the National Voter Registration Form unless you live in North Dakota, where they don't have voter registration (?!) or many other modern conveniences. The people who say it's "hard" for some Americans to provide a driver's license or state ID number -- they're joking, right? For me, the only legitimate excuse for not voting will be my death. And, hey, thousands of dead people didn't even let that stop 'em last election!
• It's nice to see such a pleasant discussion in a politics-related thread. Pity there's a few people to lower the tone, just a little. We're having local body elections right now, and again, it's painfully easy. I even got a little booklet containing a 200-ish-word summary of each candidate's platform with my voting papers, which are mail-in by October 9. Now if only someone would come up with a consistent voting scheme. The newest is STV, where you rank your preferred candidates in order from most to least preferred, then they do some convoluted rubbish to turn that into a real vote.
• Don't try to understand, shawnj; snap judging (with or without passive-aggressive bashing) is so much easier. It's faster, and you feel so much better about yourself afterward! Keep it up, and we can be as welcoming and friendly as Mefi! As evidenced by your post. I was actually trying to back your point up. Look in the mirror when you snark next time, the poo flinging started with the quoted comment. If you're referring to the part about Skrik, well... I do understand his gripe, but why would Americans talk about why they don't vote in other democracy's elections? The post was about your own, and since the vast majority of commentors are American, you get a post that talks about why people in America don't vote. It's not that we don't care about it, it's just that in relation to how the post was worded, for us to respond why people in other countries aren't voting wouldn't add much to the post.
• "Just remember, if you don't register to vote... then you won't be drafted for jury duty. Just something to think about." Not true: I haven't voted since 1980, and they keep finding me for jury duty (which I don't mind, actually -- serving on a jury is one of the most educational and interesting things you can do). Why don't I vote? I'm an anarchist. My standard analogy: it's like suggesting I vote for warden of a prison to which I've been unjustly sentenced. So what if one candidate promises to lower the number of random beatings? I want out of the prison.
• I dont vote because the government says i cant. I pay all my taxes (both state, local and federal), I'm an honest law abiding resident, and yet since i'm not american i dont qualify. So why do i have to pay taxes then if i'm not qualified to vote?
• I got called up for jury duty in California, despite being a non-US citizen and therefore ineligible to vote.
• beeswacky in the west our excuse is, "Ontario doesn't listen to the people in the west" in the east it's "Ontario doesn't care about what we want" Canada has been having a problem with low voter turn out, approximately 40% of Canadians didn't vote in the last election. That's about 10 million people! One vote most likely wont make a difference but in Canada's case 10 million votes would. Realize your "voice" is one of many and in the case of an election it does matter. One can only wonder what those 10 million "voices" would have said if they had voted.
• side note: if anyone is interested in why voters in Canada don't vote Carleton University and University of Toronto did a study. A New Survey of Non-voters
• Wow, Canada only has 34 million people? Our ferocious band of berserkers can no longer resist the siren call of the small, defenseless, peace-loving tribes to the north. The invasion begins tomorrow at dawn. Bring your sharp pointy metallic objects, and plan for a long weekend.
• In the past I have voted but not for a major party candidate. Where I live, there isn't much of a chance that whoever has been the incombant the last decade won't get re-elected. Because of that, I vote for whatever fringe candidate is running as a sign of my displeasure. I figure if enough people vote for osmeone who obviously has no chance of winning, perhaps more sensible candidates will realize that they aren't reaching everyone. Even if you think the system is broken there are ways to screw with the system.
• Whoa! Languagehat is an anarchist?! Will wonders never cease? (But,lh, would it be better if no one ran the prison? If there wasn't some sort of administration, would you be left without food or BOOKS? I'm assuming here that you'd still be in that prison. Oh, and, if you have a fedora in your inventory, I have to believe that you can't be a real anarchist.) On the other hand, I really don't understand about anarchists and don't have the will to try, so don't beat up on me too harshly.
• spackle: pop. 32,000,000 and be prepared to be met by a motley crew wearing toques and brandishing hockey sticks ... ps: I'll bring the beer - you'll be under the table in no time ;)
• I find anarchism as a theory attractive to a degree, but it's not well understood by many folk. The basic anarchist position ["no government whatsoever") or even the modified anarchist positions ["each person his/her own government"] is not common, and must be increasingly difficult to support in modern societies. One fears the totalitarian end of the political spectrum carries more and more weight these days. For example: Do you have a driver's license? A passport? A state-issued license or certification of any sort? What about health insurance? Voter registration card? And in the States, do you have a draft card or a Social Security number? What do you do about paying taxes? How do you cope with the absence of such items, if you don't? All these things would seem to impinge on or inhibit a purely anarchist position. I think it might be interesting to hear how individuals attempt to cope with such restrictive impositions. path, here's some information on anarchism
• I'll bring the beer - you'll be under the table in no time ;) Oh, beeza, baby -- I've been straining at the leash for just such a challenge. Your hockey sticks will prove no match for the horrific halberds of my husky hopped-up berserkers!
• Oh, and my own most memorable encounter with anarchism happened at the "Columbus Day" protests of 1992, when thousands of people camped out in the Ruby Valley desert at the Mercury, Nevada, nuke testing site, and the anarchist contingent tried to create a drum circle around the bedtime campfire. It was interesting, yes, but remarkably deficient in what the human ear normally recognizes as rhythm.
• I think it is pretty sad that this thread was proportedly intended to understand the reasons why people don't vote ("seek first to understand") but quickly degenerated into people injecting all the common excuses and shooting them down before they are even voiced. Way to go people!
• I vote and this is why. Everytime you refuse to vote you miss the opportunity to cancel out the vote of that loud mouthed hillbilly wifebeating fucker who lives up the block and has a "I heart Bush" bumpersticker on his El Camino. (and yes, I'm an Urban Pioneer™)
• Well, I have been a voter since I was 18. I vote general, primaries, local. All of it. Schools, too. Why, because I feel that if I start at the local level, if I help our schools gain and hold on to money for improvements, eventually it may make a difference. Change starts small, ie; it starts locally and works it's way up. Maybe this catastrophic past four years has been enough for the majority of people who haven't voted to actually stand up and be counted. And maybe if they do that, some of them will get some incentive to become more aware of their local elections. If more people voted locally, I'll bet we'd see a lot of improvement in how our politicians do their jobs. In other words, the politicians could not help but be aware that we are actually paying attention, at all levels. That would be quite a thing. I feel guilty if I don't vote now. I know that sounds ridiculously anal......but, there you go. Most people I know, don't ever vote locally. I can't really have conversations with most about local politics because no one is informed or they just don't care. And, along with what Wurwilf said, many people have no idea where to vote. I have been an absentee voter for awhile, now. It just makes life easier.
• this is why i think Australia has the greatest democracy in the world - even if you choose to 'donkey vote', that is, deliberately make an invalid vote, you have to go to a polling booth and do it! The right to vote for no-one is enshrined in law (because voting is anonymous), but you must make the decision to do so, rather than sleeping in, or forgetting, and so on...
• Your hockey sticks will prove no match for the horrific halberds of my husky hopped-up berserkers! your on spackle. Just be prepared to meet the red serge force. Wonder how well you can handle a cross check?
• I think it is pretty sad that this thread was proportedly intended to understand the reasons why people don't vote It's a low-benefit, positive-cost activity. The immediate political benefits are almost nil. Even if you like one candidate a bunch more than the other, except in local races your vote is essentially without effect -- if your guy wins, he was going to win anyway, so all you've really done is endured a cost. If your guy is losing, the odds of your vote turning that into a win closely approach zero. This is *especially* true in the US, where federalism, separation of powers with individualist legislatures, a limited federal government, weak parties, and a strong bill of rights combine such that you tend to see only moderate shifts in the way policies form. That can happen either through the inevitable compromises weakening things that can become law into milquetoast versions of themselves, or through some possible alternatives being simply off the table for federalism or bill-of-rights reasons. Either way, whoever wins your local House race or the Presidency isn't likely to bring about major changes in your life, simply because the system was set up to keep them from doing so, or at least from doing so quickly. Yes, foreign policy is somewhat an exception to that. The costs are significant. Not necessarily in money -- a pittance to travel to the polls for most people, and at most a few bucks in unpaid leave if you can't go before or after work. Registration is something you have to do yourself. The more significant costs are in information collection and information processing. Getting information about candidates takes time and effort, and thinking about them does too. If it were fun, more of us would be C-SPAN junkies. Not many of us are, ergo most of us find it un-fun, and therefore a cost. The other relevant factor in simple models of turnout is usually some measure of citizen duty towards voting -- we feel good about going to go vote, or guilty about not doing it. The idea is similar to people playing the lottery not because they think it's a wise investment but because they think it's fun -- irrespective of whether or not their numbers come up, they get a positive payoff just from the fun of it. When an activity has marginal benefits and marginal but positive costs, you'd expect lots of people to choose to stay home and play xbox instead. If you look at different demographics, this makes some sense. People with higher levels of education tend to turn out more, which makes sense as they've had more (formalized) practice with the kinds of thinking that are part of this (the flip side to communication skills, more or less). Old people show up more than young because their time-cost to voting and information-gathering is lower than for young folks. Across countries, the standard culprit is higher costs in the US. We make voters do more of their own registration here than most democracies do. Also, our elections are almost always *substantially* more complex than in other democracies, with between 50--100 offices and ballot issues up for grabs in most elections and weaker parties to tie the races and issues together, both of which drive up the cognitive cost of voting. Also also, elections in the US are more frequent, which might burn people out.
• It wasn't that bad, mecurious. There's been some good information even in-between the standard excuses and such. Plus the journalistic ethics discussion was good fun. But, yes, my goal was primarily for first-person information, rather than why other people don't vote. Speaking of, Xeny, I don't think you ever mentioned whether you vote or not.
• I vote in federal and statue general elections. I don't vote when it's only local, usually because I've moved since the last one and I never seem to know what the local issues are come election day. When I lived in NJ I didn't vote in the primary because I refused to declare a party. In MN, we use that godawful antiquated caucus system, and I have a real issue with my vote not being anonymous. It's not that I care if people know how I vote - it's that I can imagine people easily succumbing to peer pressure, and that pisses me off.
• you tend to see only moderate shifts in the way policies form This may at times seem true at the national level, but it's not true at a local level. I'm with Darshon -- the quality of your local council and mayor has a great deal of impact on your personal quality of life. Think taxes, schools, libraries, roads, electricity, water, and the list goes on. But for a national example of rapid policy shifts (and there are many) just look at environmental issues. Before the Clean Water Act of 1972, every town in the nation was disposing of its raw sewage by dumping it into the nearest stream. That became illegal overnight, the feds provided grants to help build sewage treatment plants, hefty fines were handed down to violators, and within a few years human shit vanished from our streams. Australia definitely has the solution to the non-voting problem. I wish more Americans would learn to treat voting as the powerful tool that it is: a nonviolent means of revolution.
• I am amazed at the effectiveness of the reality-distortion system in place in the U.S. (although certainly not exclusively there). People are so invested in the Myth of Democracy. People still believe that the individual's voice matters. This is the real genius of democracy: Free Speech and open elections. Give the populous the freedom to blow off steam through vigorous exercise of Free Speech and they will never achieve enough energy or anger for a real rebellion. Let 'em rant. It is better than what happens when you bottle it up. Make them think that THEY are responsible for everything that happens in government (because they elected the sons-of-bitches) and they will put the ultimate blame upon themselves and not the sons-of-bitches or the institutions of which they are a part. While illusions are certainly useful, and one cannot deny that the U.S. system of government has been pretty effective at the Number One Job of government (not being overthrown), I think it is important not to be "fooled into thinking it's democratic, when in fact it is more like a pseudo-democratically biased lottery for the appointment of a quasi-oligarchic tyrannical clique."*
• Hmm. Yeah, you know, I still much prefer a flawed attempt at democracy to any of the other political systems in use today. Have you considered that maybe it's a positive thing that we don't have to endure a bloody revolution every few years in order to change our political leaders? The individual's voice does, in fact, matter in our society. My own voice has helped to change my community in tangible ways, that I can see every day, and I'd rather work patiently to create a better community than disengage because other people refuse to recognize that I Have The Answers To Everything. Also, I just can't bring myself to take any website seriously that has such awful code as the one to which you linked.
• this is why i think Australia has the greatest democracy in the world - even if you choose to 'donkey vote', that is, deliberately make an invalid vote, you have to go to a polling booth and do it! Well, I certainly hope they have laws to make you eat your vegetables, too, and talk nice around the dinner table. Sheesh. I still find it hard to believe people are so comfortable forcing other people to do things they don't believe in. (I was a conscientious objector during Vietnam, so it's not an abstract issue to me.) path: Don't worry, I'd never beat you up! beeswacky is absolutely correct: I find anarchism as a theory attractive to a degree, but it's not well understood by many folk. Not only that, but there are infinite varieties of anarchism (including "communist anarchists," which I've never understood); I can only vouch for my own brand. I used to devote a lot of mental energy to trying to figure out how to bring about the ideal anarchic society, but as I got older I realized it wasn't going to happen in my lifetime anywhere, and probably for the next thousand years -- humanity is just too dominated by evolutionary drives to dominance and submission, too hooked on power and violence. But I still hate hierarchy and its inevitable corrolary, violence, and although I'm not up for devoting my entire life to Fighting the Power, I try to ignore it as best I can, which isn't very much. I pay my taxes because the costs of not doing so are too high; I don't talk back to cops for the same reason. I guess I'm an anarchist the way a lot of Jews I know are Jews: they go to temple once a year and maybe avoid leavened bread at Passover, but otherwise it doesn't impinge on their daily lives very much. But I'm not going to vote -- that would be like a Jew going into a church and taking part in communion.
• Spackle: a) I did not ask you to take the web site seriously. I merely referenced the quote, rather than leading anyone to believe that I came up with it on my own. I think it is a very accurate and precisely-worded definition. b) Even if I were asking you to take the web site seriously, evaluating the ideas of a website by the way it is coded (apparently one of your areas of expertise) is like a roofer evaluating YOUR ideas (on any other subject) by judging the results of your do-it-yourself roofing job. Are the two linked at all except in your mind? Even if that was a valid approach (to link the two), it ASSUMES that the author of the web site is the same as the author of the idea (an assumption that, again, only exists conclusively in your mind). The lack of critical thinking reflected by your doing both A and B (on the other hand) makes me fear for your community and the supposed changes such a thought process evaluate as necessary. Your post reminds me of a bit of dialog from "O Brother Where Art Thou" which seems quite appropriate given our discussion of voting results as a basis for rational progress: Pete: Wait a minute. Who elected you leader of this outfit? Ulysses: Well Pete, I figured it should be the one with the capacity for abstract thought. But if that ain't the consensus view, then hell, let's put it to a vote. Pete: Suits me. I'm voting for yours truly. Ulysses: Well I'm voting for yours truly too. Delmar: Okay... I'm with you fellas.
• Ooookay. Backs away slowly...
• Speaking of, Xeny, I don't think you ever mentioned whether you vote or not Usually. I miss some local elections that are poorly publicized, and I miss primaries that are either done deals by the time my primary happens (most recent presidential one) or where nobody of note is running anyway; if it's just a sacrificial lamb, I don't much care who it is.
• I don't vote on tv shows
• I vote in federal elections, but won't vote again in a state election until either 1) the Republiban gerrymandering of 2002 is undone or 2) the Democrats put up somebody who I can actually differentiate from a Rethuglican. Welcome to Texas.
• I'm one of those unfortunates who hasn't made up my mind what to do. I have voted in ever election, regardless of import, since I was 18. It's my duty. Now I don't know. It's not an option for me to skip an election. So much seems at stake now, so I'm torn.
• Oops, please let me clarify. I am torn because everything is an emergency yet everything is muddy. I thought I believed in a certain ideology, but even that appears to have shifted.
• I'm just thankful to have the opportunity to vote.
• "I don't vote because I am in disagreement with all the current candidates' plans and I can't really care who is in charge of office if he or she is only going to crap on it. In fact, now that I thought of it I will launch myself as candidate and do things my way if I win." Things I said in a school students' board election. Naturally I lost that one. But the next year I got into a campaing as board member for a fairly popular candidate who latter won and tried to convince her as president of the best decisions. It didn't work either.
• I vote in every election. I also take my kids with me to the polling booth when I can. I also try to instill in them that even though my one vote may not swing the election, it does still matter. Good on you, Kwyjibo. I think this is the only way to really do it. I'm afraid I'm an utter and total cynic about democracy, and I'm so totally with Mecurious: While illusions are certainly useful, and one cannot deny that the U.S. system of government has been pretty effective at the Number One Job of government (not being overthrown), I think it is important not to be "fooled into thinking it's democratic, when in fact it is more like a pseudo-democratically biased lottery for the appointment of a quasi-oligarchic tyrannical clique." I think our democracy's been steadly degrading into oligarchy, and as mentioned above, the next couple elections will prove interesting. But how to reverse this degradation, and what the alternatives are, I haven't a clue.
• But how to reverse this degradation, and what the alternatives are, I haven't a clue. Vote for me, I'll think of something.
• languagehat: Well, I certainly hope they have laws to make you eat your vegetables, too, and talk nice around the dinner table. Sheesh. I still find it hard to believe people are so comfortable forcing other people to do things they don't believe in. (I was a conscientious objector during Vietnam, so it's not an abstract issue to me.) And my grandfather, born an Englishman, naturalised Australian, was killed in Vietnam. Conscientious I ain't. I'm downright bloody radical about objecting. /rant In any case, how many people don't vote as a result of their informed political choice? How many people don't vote because they simply can't be arsed? I'll lay you pretty good money as to which fraction of the population will be greater. Voting is a means of expressing your political will. If you don't have a political will, then drop a blank ballot into the box! But damn me if you should't have to do it. I don't think we should vote at all - I firmly believe that any small group of people doesn't act on democratic lines but rather anarchist ones, and that's a whole lot better. But until the rest of the world sees the light that shines in the darkness, let's vote lefter and lefter! (till the damn trots get in and we can have a good brawl with the buggers)
• Because of the black helicopters.
• I vote, so I can't add to the "why don't you vote" discussion that is largely subtracted here anyway. I agree however that registering to vote and actually voting are a lot harder than they need to be in the US. Personally, I don't think that either of the big political parties really WANTS 80%+ voter turnout, for the simple reason that they only know what 40% of the electorate will do (i.e., their own supporters). If you make everybody vote, or make it easier for folks, then you've got a huge percentage of people deciding the election about whom you have no frikkin' clue. Easier to play to your base and not make voting attractive to those who don't express an interest. Otherwise you let the tempest out of the teapot and have to deal with figuring out what the public at large would actually like their government to do.
• I vote on every election that comes at hand. But most of the time I think those I vote for haven't done or will do enough to deserve it. But as long as they the have the more grounded promises (ie. don't offer the moon or the stars) they got it.
• Sorry for being a pompous ass (like always) but you just have to see how bad all political candidates are were I live.
• You are pretty intense even across ths laggy medium of an internet discussion site. I don't think we could handly you live.
• Handly! Say it! It's the best word EVAR!
• Handly! You say Handly, I say de-Bach-le.