July 08, 2004

• I find intentionally ignoring women changes things from the friend zone to the sex zone. For the record, rolypolyman, I dream about you. Are dreams of whip cream and farm animals so wrong?
• Yes, and I have very gradually come to realize that it is all my own damn fault. I don't think of myself as attractive, so I'm completely oblivious to someone's flirting and just assume they're being nice. I'm also shy about expressing feelings and a blunt-spoken person, so I'm not exactly skilled in flirting myself. Unless someone tells me flat-out that they find me attractive, I automatically resort to friend status. Most of my friends are men, and there's a good chance at least some of them were attracted to me when we met. Too bad I was clueless. I have no idea if this epiphany will lead to anything more with a current friend, probably not since most have married by now. At least maybe I'll pay better attention.
• I found that was true when I was younger (ignoring, not barnyard pr0n). I was forever in the friend zone in high school, partly because my interest was obvious to anyone at whom I'd pointed it, and also because I was a total moron at recognizing when a girl was interested in me. The girls I had no interest in were always the ones who were interested in me, and it took me awhile to figure out that my attentions were a bit forceful (read: annoying), which was of course a turnoff. After that it was a small step to realize that I stood a better chance of leaving the friend zone if I actually pursued just a friendship with the girl. Of course, it was my extra-large wang that got me my wife.
• I don't think of myself as attractive, so I'm completely oblivious to someone's flirting and just assume they're being nice. I'm also shy about expressing feelings and a blunt-spoken person, so I'm not exactly skilled in flirting myself. Unless someone tells me flat-out that they find me attractive, I automatically resort to friend status Ditto.
• I made a sort of bizarre turn around myself, and I do agree these things are culturally different boys from girls. in high school I felt myself to be very unattractive. glasses, braces, very shy and serious. I never had a boyfriend in high school or really any sexual or "romantic" experiences. I never thought any boys liked me and if I liked them I was shy to the point of clumsy silence and never let them know in any way. however, during my 20s I underwent some pretty amazing development psychologically/attitudinally etc....I came to understand that my attitude mattered more than anything else, that I should just relax and let people find out I was an interesting, funny person (hey! I AM.) naturally this led to more...opportunties. sex, romance, relationships, all that good stuff. in time this began to affect the way I perceived myself physically, not that I became arrogant or vain, but able to make a fairly level-headed assessment of myself and to recognise the positives in addition to bewailing the (perceived and real) negatives... at this point (36) I have come also to realize that there were certainly boys who liked me and flirted with me as a teenager, I was just way too oblivious and insecure to see it!! when not regretting all the teenage bootie I missed out on I spend my time these days continuing to work on having an attitude of openness to things, people, opportunties and developing the "bravery" to put myself out there, take risks and try to make things happen... ok, enough with the dr. phil sh*t here!! let's all go scam some action...
• I'm with Medusa. I found that once I adopted an attitude of "what the fuck", learned to give up when I needed to give up, and just generally started to chill the fuck out about girls, they started to like me more. 'Course, it took a couple of nasty knockbacks to learn this, but hey, doesn't it always?
• In high school I was coming to the realization that I was gay, so everything freaked me out. I still dated boys (very little) and played around (far too much), but I couldn't say that I was stuck in friendship mode, I usually just chose not to go there. Fast forward to my mid-twenties and it's a totally different story. A weird mixture of friend-zone frustration and not being able to maintain friendship boundaries well with people that I really just wanted as friends. Now, five years into my relationship I'm going through another weird phase where I'm trying to get back to have friends outside of my relationship and I find that I'm quite the Casanova without even trying. Obviously, this isn't good news - so I'm trying to retrain myself to not be my natural flirtatious self. It's quite frustrating. I'm starting to wish for the friend-zone frustrations again. On preview - Medusa is totally on spot. Now that I think about it there was a distinct change in my mid-twenties. I started playing pool and became a bartender. I developed a very friendly, yet cool attitude. Today I'm always getting told that I'm an interesting person - this despite the fact that I still think I'm boring as all get out, but whatever.
• For two years after a really bad breakup, I was a complete and total asshole. I had more women than I knew what to do with. Two years into this, I realized that I was doing nothing but hurting the people I was screwing over and started to feel bad about it. It was then I decided to go to the kinder, gentler surlyboi. It's been one friend zone situation after another since then. Only when I let the asshole out to play does it ever change. The problem? For the most part, I hate the women I end up with when the asshole has control, as he tends to go for hard-ass bitches. I'm still trying to find the balance between the, 'don't give a fuck' me and the sensitive one. It's difficult, to say the least. But sometimes I get lucky. Literally and figuratively.
• I haven't had a girlfriend since 1998. Sad, but true.
• surlyboi, I'm with you, only I have never spent time as the Total Asshole. I'm trying to work him in, though, just enough. I'm starting to get the hang of it. Ditto to middleclasstool, Medusa, and BBF. It's all about attitude. Weezel lonely and horny. stupid, stupid women.
• I should clarify though. The best relationships I've ever had started out as friendships.
• For a while I had nobody. Then I was going out with what everyone considered a beautiful girl but she was annoying and couldn't bring herself to accept my immense generousity of affection (also she was high strung...etc. She was inappropriate for me), and so now I'm going out with a boy who looks like harry potter except with amazing tits (although his/her appearance is, naturally, only a tiny part of the picture - she/he's a spectacularly good match for me, and we're both really weird). Complete turnabout. What did I do? Next to nothing. I just sort of acted kindly to the world (especially birds) and let myself figure out what I wanted... this was reflected in my conduct (my theory anyway), and so naturally, I got what I wanted. True story. I hate to reduce a complicated situation into a simple one (since I doubt you'd be satisfied with that, I know I wouldn't) but you simply have to have faith in your own awesomeness and faith in that leading not only someone, but eventually, someone much better.
• Oh yeah, and I agree with some of the above: knowing what you want and chilling the eff out is probably the easiest route to ass, not that this is gonna bring you enlightenment or anything. Good luck.
• Nothing gets people hotter than platonism.
• It's really interesting how the mass media (especially movies) reinforces the notion that women like men who are thoughtful and caring. This shenanigan has put millions of us in the Friend Zone for years. I bought it hook, line, and sinker. Thoughtfulness and niceness are definitely key items once the relationship is going. But one of the hardest lessons I've learned is that this kind of gentlemanly behavior while courting is a first-class ticket to the Friend Zone. Funny that when I stopped caring that I never got to really test the other side of my theory, as I went from first base to home run in just 52 days, after exactly ten years of trying.
• I had an interesting high school experience... being that I'm a huge fucking nerd at heart and was more interested in optimizing asm 3d engines than actually figuring out how to ask out girls did not lend itself well to my high school relationships (or lack thereof). But through an interesting chain of events involving me asking out the (gorgeous) captain of our dance team and ending up making a complete fool of myself, I ended up becoming best friends with this girl who every other guy in the school wanted badly. That was the start of it, and by the time I graduated senior year I was very close to all the popular girls, who despite their popularity, were good people who were just as confused about life and relationships as everyone else. I think it's because they felt very safe around me; I was really a kind of dorky un-stylish computer programmer who was voted "most likely to go into business with bill gates" in our senior annual. But this taught me two things: Girls are never un-approachable, and that everyone has the same fears and insecurities, but we just manifest them all differently. Since high school I've focused some of my energy into learning style, more pop culture, and I've turned into a fairly cute guy. And I'm entirely comfortable around females; I can't spit game, but I can talk to a stranger in a bar with the same degree of comfort as I have around old friends, and the girl will always respond positively to that and immediately become comfortable around me. Which all gets back to that women-liking-men-who-are-assholes thing. I would say it's more that women are more attracted to confidence, and the easiest way to feign confidence is to not give a fuck. Which I don't, because every girl I talk to I talk to like a friend, I let me guard down like a friend, and I don't care if she's interested in me or not because I'm not trying to talk her up or spit game or anything. I don't anymore have problems with the friend-zone thing, in fact it's more of the opposite where now many of the girls that I've been friends with for years have begun to tell me that they're attracted to me. And it's great. I still wouldn't say I'm brimming with self confidence, rather I honestly just don't care in that way around women, to me they're like my male friends and I'll say what I want to say around them, I'll be callous, blunt, and utterly comfortable around them, and they all return the same attitude back to me. I feel it's begun to work out nicely.
• ian, thank you so much! thank you for introducing me to a new expression, "spit game" thank you most of all for rising up (!) to bash the "girls like assholes" thing on its ugly stupid head!!! really, thank you :D most women do not prefer assholes, but yes, we do like confidence and often we like assertiveness. (as opposed to agressiveness) I am sorry but if a guy is going around being nice to get laid as opposed to being himself and nice because thats who and what he is, then OF COURSE its not going to work!! who wouldnt smell a rat? there is a difference between being "nice" or a "nice guy" and being passive, or passive-agressive, or overly eager to be something you perceive the other person wants you to be. I am not saying that this pertains to anyone here (of course!) but it does pertain to the women-love-assholes myth. again, learn to have some comfort with yourself and treat people like people instead of potential sex partners or prime cuts of meat....
• not that I live by these rules, mind you. I objectify all of my friends and sleep with them any chance I get. I LOOOOVEEE being in the friend zone!!!!!
• I've pretty much given up.
• men say they just want to be friends? what happened to 'i'll call you...'? /i've been out of things too long. i suppose i'm on the other side of the equation. my best friend of over thirty years is a guy who actually got this 'friend zone' from me. we often slept together chastely - my insistence - and now, after 34 years, he declares me the most enduring and trusted person in his life. as he is to me, also. but we could have never survived living together. it was at age 49 that i finally met a man who is friend, companion and lover. i would suggest one should value an offerred friendship, if possible. and lots of patience. love is elusive when pursued and benevolent when least expected. surlyboi, Total Asshole is my second husband. i've been trying to track you down for awhile. we have some unfinished business! /on preview, ian..right on. i actually married that asshole 'bad boy' and spent ten years in a daze trying to figure out what the fuck had happened to my life before he left and i figured it out.
• I'm a shy-geeky-nerd guy with too many character flaws, who rarely dates and never had a girlfriend. Despite this, 6 years ago I met a gorgeous girl which I had nothing in common and I despised for starters (I thought that she was probably a blonde airhead). But she proved me wrong after we ended up doing social work together. Then I fell deeply in love with her and somehow we developed a close connection. Still we got stuck in the friend-zone since then no matter the fact we have shared far too many things (My first passionate kiss, for instance). The thing is that I think my insecurity put her off too many times and now she's practically engaged to another person. So sad, so true. And, Cali, you are gourgeous when you sneer. Really!!
• I'm rampantly unattractive, so I don't even get TO the Friend Zone unless there's some other factor going on (I have money they want to borrow, I have friends/relatives they want to date). That said. I will definitely back up the concept that confidence is a great draw, and that going about your business is much, much more attractive than sitting on somebody's doorstep with velvet-painting eyes, whining softly. If all a person does is follow you around and fixate on you, they don't show any of their own natural spark, their personality - they're just this void of need. I would much, much rather go for someone who has a life of their own. I feel like I'm getting a truer picture of who they are, rather than a Please Date Me job-application version of themselves. (and yes, despite the rampant unattractiveness I was followed around puppy-dog style for a few months. It was a giant turnoff, believe you me.) Although I don't agree with everything they say, there are some interesting points made about that whole "women only like jerks and don't go for 'nice guys'" concept on this site - in a nutshell, anyone who blames their failures on somebody else isn't all that nice. So yeah, I completely see why that would happen.
• My experience is pretty unusual as well. I used to find myself in the friend zone all the time. I probably still would be to this day if it weren't for one day in college. Up until my Junior year of college I was hopelessly inept as far as women went. What little dating I had done up to then had crashed and burned, and I was resigned to the fact that I'd never find a girl. I had no confidence, and I'm sure it showed. One day a friend asked me to fill out a survey for a class on relationships he was taking. It required me to describe in detail my ideal partner, both physically and intellectually. About 2 weeks later, I was introduced to a girl who met every one of my criteria. She was perfect. And she found me attractive. One night, after a few weeks of hanging out, generally getting to know each other, (and a few drinks as well,) we found ourselves in bed. After a few brief months of dating, I was cast back into the friend zone, but as a much wiser and more confident individual. I still find myself there sometimes with new girls I meet, but I've learned not to worry about it. Rather than get hung up, I've learned to be happy with who I am. If a woman finds me attractive, then great. If not, well, it wouldn't have worked anyway I guess, so no big loss.
• (Great thread...I learned something today) I've definitely kept girls in 'the friend zone', simply because I find some girls interesting that I don't necessarily find attractive. To be brutally honest, I also stay friends with some girls I want but choose to prioritise our friendship over sex or dating, because the former is fairly rare (if it's a truly unique female), and I'd rather know them as a person than date them as a female. Sex is a lot easier to come by than true friendship, and non-sexual friends of the opposite sex are a goldmine of intel on what the opposite sex thinks. Plus if you're sitting in a bar with a girl or two in the group, you're not a horde of slavering males who look like they're picturing everybody in the bar naked. I have been on the receiving end a couple of times, but it's never lasted. In 80% of cases, we end up having sex anyway and trying to continue being friends; sometimes it works. 10% of the time we end up with something a bit more serious. The other 10% is the cold rejection to the Friend Zone, which often foretells the end of the friendship itself since I can be an egomaniac when it comes to the heart, and how dare she not fall to my feet in a puddle of her own secretions and beg for the honour of receiving my holy sacrement?
• I tend not to pursue relationships much. All the girlfriends I've ever had initiated the relationship.. and I do have many many female friends. I think the idea that you're not interested in their bodies makes girls much more inclined to be comfortable around you. Some of them, few perhaps, but only one is enough, will want to have a relationship. But since one is expected to have one partner and many friends in one's life this is perfectly normal. A lot of people seem to want to jump the gun, perhaps, and I've been guilty of same a couple of times, with little success. Ironically I've had quite a few relationsihps, from fling to serious relationship, with roommates. Never my intention from the start, but just being around someone for in a setting like the breakfast table gives ample opportunity to share your personality, and a much more real version of it than when you're out at a club or whatever. Of course I've also been in the awkward position of still living with someone after a breakup.. this business certainly is complicated. I find intentionally ignoring women changes things from the friend zone to the sex zone Of course, the uncertainty principle, where the observed knows it's being observed and it affects the results applies here. You have to genuinely not care for it to really work :)
• there are absolutely NO unattractive or undesirable monkeys around here. you are all beautiful, intelligent, witty, talented and since i come here daily to seek your company... i feel i am quite right in that statement. imho. defining one's value by what they think others see is an either an exercise in vanity or futility. *to your own self be true*
• everyone always said, "marry your best friend," so that's what i did. he was sweet, kind, protective, attentive -- and DIDN'T watch professional sports. every woman's dream! i married into the friend zone!!! for more than a decade i kept telling myself, he's a great guy! every woman's dream! what a guy i have! it took me that long to figure out, not my dream. now i'm with my One True Love who watches sports constantly, consistently forgets birthdays/anniversaries, is unkempt and more than a bit of a doofus. my dream guy!
• Which is all well and good dxlifer (and I kinda sorta agree but....) coming to terms with what that approach actually entails can be hard on the monkey brain. In my case, I went through a lot of being stuck in the friends zone. Exclusively, in the friends zone. Which led me to the inevitable conclusion that I wasn't an attractive person. Simple really; by definition, attractive people are attractive, I wasn't, therefore I wasn't. *shrug* Accepting that, as true, that was the hard part. To be honest, I don't believe I ever really did. Accept it I mean. The truth of it I don't question, I believe it to be the case. But not accept it. And that lead me to not caring about myself, and consequently doing some stupid things. I got lucky though, and the consequences have been, by any measure, mild. I'm not a wiser monkey for it though, that's definitely true. But I'm happier now than I have been for many years. Dating, and happy. My significant other is clearly insane, since they are dating me. But that's OK.
• I should clarify though. The best relationships I've ever had started out as friendships. Ditto to that. After a string of okay-to-horrible flings and relationships, the smartest thing I ever did was to pull myself out of the dating pool and towel off. I decided that from that point on, I would be nothing but friends with women. Once I befriended a woman and really got to know her, I would ask her out only if I knew I'd be an idiot to pass up the opportunity to see what might happen. But I was done with the headache and expense of fishing for women. Mere weeks later, there was my wife. She'd been right in front of me for two years, and I'd been too stupid to see it. She's the most wonderful woman I've ever known and delights me every single day. And let me tell you, when you've been friends with an attractive woman and wondered for two years what shagging her would be like, the payoff is extraordinary. I practically took a victory lap around the apartment afterward.
• Oh, yes there are. Saying a person is unattractive doesn't mean they're bad. You can be a friendly, thoughtful, charming, witty, intelligent, wonderful person and still stop traffic the wrong way. It's just one of a suite of traits, not a definition of the whole person. I'm confident in saying I'm hideous because I know I have other things going for me. They're no help in dating, of course, I mean as a whole. I forgot to mention, now that cephalophile brings it up, that opposite-sex friends are wonderful. I'm glad for the ones I had, and the ones I lost, I wish I could have them back. I grew up nearly surrounded by women and went to a women's college in part to avoid hazing, so I think it's helped to restore some kind of internal equilibrium. Exposure to different points of view is a great thing. I hope I never get to the point where I start viewing others as some mysterious, unknowable force that can never be understood, rather than as fellow human beings. done rambling now.
• sidedish - i married my best friend. things look good so far. (although when i suddenly developed an interest in pro hockey she was taken aback - i'd never much cared for sports before.) we met in high school, dated, engaged, married 6 years so far but i can't help but count the relationship back to high school - i still carry our junior prom photo in my wallet (much to her embarassment, but... i keep it anyway, and am not afraid to show it to people.) mostly we complement each other, and that i think is what makes being married in the friend zone work for us. she's sort of neurotic, i'm mostly laid-back. she plans, i improvise. she hates talking to strangers, i can't shut up. she's rather pessimistic, i'm cynically optimistic. and the key here is that we like spending time together. i know couples who take seperate vacations - can't figure out why they're together if they can't stand spending time with each other. we pretty much do everything together, and it seems strange for both of us not to have the other around. it happens without either of us feeling dependent, clingy, etc. - just doesn't seem right not to have her within shouting distance at least. i know that i've changed a lot since high school, mostly due to my wife. she's helped me out a lot, style-wise; i think just being in a stable relationship with a hot chick was pretty damn good for me too. there have been several times in college that i realized people were hitting on me - but it took me more than two years in one case to figure it out. i was just so unused to it that it didn't register. funny how you're more attractive to others once you've stopped needing to look. (as i joked once at a party: "chicks dig the wedding ring - it shows you're not afraid of commitment...")
• oh wurwilf - forgot to add - opposite-sex friends are indeed great. i've found, in my experience, that people unable to have a platonic opposite-sex friend seem to be the ones who have trouble staying in any relationship. if you can't look past the genitals and see the person, you're not going to be mature enough to make a lasting commitment. two friends of mine have been at both ends of this equation - one finally made friends with a girl rather than starting with trying to have sex, they're now married. the other still hasn't managed to figure out that women can be more than just a sentient sex toy, and he's still miserably single, with a string of failed relationships.
• caution, so glad to hear it's working out for you! obviously you have the magic ingredient that i'd overlooked -- chemistry. best friend + chemistry = happily ever after!
• The key most often, I believe, is to stop looking, be confident about yourself, like yourself enough to be alone, play hard to get just a little. As far as I'm concerned, the chase is one the most exciting parts of the whole deal. Remain a mystery for as long is is reasonable. Never be easy. And if you are, make sure you are hugely entertaining to make up for it. Besides, 'friend status' is a very honarable position to have. Truly.
• This 'friend zone' and dating thing is a waste of time. Its "put out bitch, or get out of the damn car! I even SuperSized your order - you owe me." That, and mail order Filipinas. god i hope my wife doesn't read this
• If there has been a sudden rise in the number of girl-fronted emo bands in my area, I'd like to take complete responsibility. It took me years and years to figure out that girls wanted to dance up on me, but I never really trusted that they did, because I had poor (poor, poor, poor) self-image. My usual antics now skip between self-mockingly arrogant and utter goof-ball, with bursts of incredible mega-sentimentalism and artistic poet-boy flair. In short, I'm so ridiculously insane that some girls can't help but nibble on my ear now and then. Yet, the ones that I trust enough to keep around for a few days are far and few between. The ones I go after never end up biting, or else they only have after I've stopped chasing. My point is similar to the one Darshon just made, except I'm the guy who doesn't know when to stop being delightfully mysterious. It's all about balance and great hair. Oh God, I just don't know what to do with myself. Please help me Dashboard Confessional!
• what blogRot said. /reaches back like a pimp and slaps the ho
• I quote Denzel Washington in Mo Better Blues, "Other guys feed you lines, but I take you to Mickey D's!"
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• oooh...kiss and tell!!!
• Theoretically, I could be friends with a girl who turned me down IF she was honest and upfront about it and didnt embarass me too much. I find that even attractive girls are not really approached that much, and most have a very difficult time handling it gracefully- they kind of get a "deer in the headlights" look (or is that just when it's me approaching them?) Memo to the ladies: the best answer is always "I already have a boyfriend," whether its true or not. It ends things quickly and doesnt make the asker feel bad. The worst answer is when you try to make it sound like its nothing personal: "I don't date" is an actual response I have gotten (from someone who was constantly flirting and touching me) Please dont insult our intelligence. If you are saying "no" to me, it means you are not attracted to me specifically. I can live with that if you can be a grown-up about it. Not every girl in the world is attracted to me- an unpleasant fact I have come to accept. To come back to the "friends" thing, yeah, it could happen. But saying "lets just be friends" in response to someone asking you out is now, and has always been, crap. Besides the fact that the very sound of the words makes a man's testicles beat a rapid retreat into his body cavity, I have never in my life asked one of my male friends formally to be friends, and they never asked me. Friendships just happen. The guy is usually painted as the bad guy if he says he has no interest in being friends- he's a "jerk" who's "only after sex." That is crap to me, too. Asking someone out on a date means you are interested in, if not "sex," then a romantic relationship with that person. That is different from friendship and the guy no doubt already has many friends. "Lets be friends" is offering a very insincere consolation prize, so I think the guy has every right to walk away at that point.
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