December 11, 2003

• I did a postgraduate degree at the Sorbonne. Cost? $US150. True.
• Tuition for me this year is about $5000 CND, or $3800 USD. This is the most of any of the programs (except medicine) offered here. I can fully understand the concerns voiced in the first link, as tuition might be rising at Queen's too, and it scares the shit out of me.
• Once you've had semi-affordable education, it's a pretty nasty slap in the face to take it away. Especially as all those politicians planning it already had their own educations funded through low or non-existant tuition, and grants for living expenses as well. They got their goodies in the 60s and 70s, but don't want to pay their taxes now. As for the effect of tution on participation in higher education by the poorer sort (nice early modern term), there seems to be so much conflicting evidence. High tution, whether paid up front or later, will discourage poorer students from even applying to university, because they are traditionally more debt-adverse than middle class students, who realise that their education will pay off in the long run. Also, you have to deal with the sheer cultural shock of paying more for university than some people's parents make. At one point, ridiculous amounts like 10,000 pounds were being thrown around - that is just an unreal amount of money to anyone from the lower end of the income scale. But that said, low tuition for the prestigious universities in the UK hasn't exactly made them more accessible (as the BBC constantly loves to report), since their student bodies are of almost the same background as the most expensive of the American prestigious schools. No matter how cheap university is, those with capital (both cultural and literal) will have advantages if admission is competitive. Frankly, they should improve state schools, keep tuitions low, if not non-existant, and do what every great democratic-socialist does - pay for education through progressive income tax. Since those who go to university end up making much more money than those who don't, in a progressive income tax system, they will pay more tax, refunding their education and then some. (Unless you have a non-progressive income tax sceme, like Alabama, which is just scary.) But this proposed scheme will frighten away capable poorer students, and will punish anyone who wants to use their education to work in any of the very unlucrative but really important public sector fields, such as teaching, nursing or non-profit law. Sorry that's so long. But my profile does warn that when it comes to educational policy, I will talk anyone's ear off. Also, I've been following this issue from across the pond for months. The Guardian has the most accessible information, as it has an entire online section devoted to higher education. Searches on the BBC will also bring up many, many stories. And, yes, I do believe acessibility to universities is an a priori good, because otherwise any claim that those in university are actually those with the greatest potential is just a load of hooey. If you want to live in anything even approaching a meritocracy, you have to work to reduce the difference in the starting positions.
• (Oh, I hadn't realised how much I had imbibed British political language - "scheme"? I have to spend less time reading the Guardian and more time drinking beer and watching hockey, or they won't let me in the country next time I go home.)
• The Brits actually copied this one off us Aussies. They had consultants coming out here for months checking out the HECS scheme. (As we so quaintly call it.) So, er, sorry. I owe the gov something north of 20 large already, and it looks like I'll have to sign on for another diploma this coming year in order not to be completely fucking unemployable. Yee. Haw.
• I'm not even finished first-year, and I already owe the government close to $9000. I'm at least grateful that I don't have to pay it back for another three and a half years, but if I keep having to take out loans such as these, I will be in debt for quite a while. I'm still holding out for the 100k a year job though... whatever it may be
• (Actually, I do get freelance work, but there never seems to be quite enough of it. What I would like is a proper job. Please excuse whingeing tone.)
• Stepself, I don't want to be a party-pooper, but it may be a bit unrealistic to be looking for a job that pays that much, unless you go directly into a medicine or law program. Most jobs directly from Bachelors degrees seem pay about $30,000 CND a year in Southern Ontario. Some might even pay $50,000-70,000 starting. But $100,000 is an unreasonable expectation in the vast majority of fields (Law being one of the exception - thus the recent hikes up to 20K for tution). After I finish my Ph.D., I will make about $30-40,000 to begin with, if I am lucky enough to get a job in my field. Most senior professors make only between $50-90,000 a year. And I'm including Bachelors of Science here - the job prospects for those are actually worse than BAs, because without a Masters or Ph.D. these days B.Sc's seem to end up as technicians, or as administrative assistants. Maybe I'm talking out my pessimistic hat here, but I just would hate for you to have undue expectations. University is the one of the best things you can do for your life, because it's just really fun to learn things, and it does improve your chances of finding an interesting job that pays a living wage. But a lot of graduates are finding that, while a good investment, it's not exactly a moneybag.
• I have submitted my PhD. I spent yesterday painting a roof to make some money.
• jb - I realize that 100k is high, but hey, it would be nice right? I do not expect something like that to come around any time soon, if ever. But I still dream about it sometimes. From what I've heard, most BAs have a lot of trouble finding a decent job upon completion of university, and Bachelors of Science end up with a higher employment rate. But that might be biased, since I'm in Engineering. I just always assumed I'd have little trouble getting a respectable job in a few more years... I guess I might have more trouble than I thought.
• i got a $22000 AUD debt to the australian government for some of the most micky mousiest degrees - this year my total income was $30000. the hecs fee here creates a spiralling debt trap unless mummy and daddy are v. rich and can pay it up front.
• Just to provide the American perspective - I got my BA degree from a decent university. Total cost was somewhere around $50,000+. Student loan repayments must start one year from graduation, regardless of whether you're employed, or how much money you're making. I got a job in my field (a field with good potential for good income) a few months after I graduated, making $19,500 a year, and was happy to have it.
• Thanks Sooooz for inserting a little perspective. I really don't want to pee in anyone's pool or anything, but I'm about to go to grad school with undergrad loans trailing behind me and $5k a year looks great to me. I truly and wholeheartedly believe that it's worth it (so I'm not complaining) and that the job market will turn around in the U.S., but an education here is one of the most expensive investments people can make. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying you guys are luckier than we are.
• I went to university in the US but I was lucky to have a computer-geek hubby to help with fees, plus I did the first two years at a community college for $11 per unit. Between that and scholarships, I did okay. But in New Zealand I did two years straight out of high school and the only thing I got out of it was a NZ$20k debt. Here repayment begins when you earn over a certain threshold, and if you go back to school your interest for that time is written off, which makes a huge difference. Kimberly, you're right. It's expensive, but it is and investment. You'll make that money back and more, if you actually try.
• Not to turn this into a chat room, but Tracicle which university did you go to? I was at Massey in Palmerston North in 1992.
• Interest free? I wish. In the US, unless your family is designated as "poor" by the government and you apply for special loans, interest can being accruing while you're still in school. The only way to get loan deferral or forgivenss is to join Peace Corps or AmeriCorps
• The only way to get loan deferral or forgivenss is to join Peace Corps or AmeriCorps Or never have a job, or stay in school forever!!! mwoohahahahahahaha!
• Stepself: Actually, a few years back, the provincial government of Ontario was trying to pressure the University of Toronto to move money from arts to science for just this reason. The U of T (as it is known locally) responded by surveying its graduates, and found that BA holders had much better job prospects than their BSc classmates. I know this goes against popular wisdom, but the reasons are very much as jb outlined above: BAs teach you to think and write, which are non-vocational skills that tertiary businesses like. On the other hand, a BSc program is more likely to teach you skills specifically applicable only to doing science. Or as my (scientist) brother, very succinctly, put it: the perception in a lot of private sector companies is that 'once you can read Kierkegaard, you can read anything'. Falconred: Yes, we have it easy in the social-democratic world. It's true. But I would caution anyone reading this thread not to fall into the trap of thinking that this legislation isn't that bad just because things are worse in the US. Yes we have it good. That's just the way I like it, and I'm willing to fight any legislation that would degrade our privileges without just cause.
• 'once you can read Kierkegaard, you can read anything' Your job on the front desk awaits. But first, polish off that pile of Lacan s
• On the other hand, a BSc program is more likely to teach you skills specifically applicable only to doing science Isn't that what a lot of employers want? I'm on my way to becoming fully versed in calculus and java, among other things, whereas my Faculty of Arts friends are becoming fully versed in John Locke and Chaucer. I know that those latter two are important, but from a practical standpoint, I can't see how knowledge of medieval poetry will get me a good job, outside of teaching.
• Argh, Soooz, you farmer! I went to Canterbury (Christchurch) for two years. Never even been to the North Island except for five days in Auckland and one in Wellington last year . :)
• Yeah, can you believe I was studying English and philosophy there? Moooo.
• Now that I've derailed my own thread... ASSHATS!
• The other question, to put the thread back on track, is -- Is it moral for politicians who themselves received a heavily subsidized education to turn around and deny it to the next generation? My favorite quote from this whole debate "[Tuition fees] will make higher education the cabbage patch of the middle classes" - from the UK Education Secretary, Charles Clarke, when he was a radical student protesting government proposals for fee hikes just like the ones he is currently pushing. Apologies if this is misquoted - I heard it on the BBC a year or so ago, and wrote it down, but can't find it right now.
• I'm not sure morals really comes into play here. It sounds to me like they are doing what they have to do in order to keep the universities out of the red. Suppose the choice comes down to the politicians avoiding being hypocrites or the universities offering sub-standard education, facilities, professors or even closing down their doors? (Not that I think Oxford or Cambridge would ever be considered sub-standard, no matter what happens financially.) Which would you choose?
• U.S. perspective again, on the topic of screwing the next generation. "American government benefits will give a typical man reaching age 65 today a net windfall of more than $70,000 beyond what he paid in. A luckless 25-year-old, by contrast, can count on paying $322,000 more in payroll taxes than he will ever get back in benefits." Via Metafilter.
• In the U.S. we live in a culture of fear. We're afraid that someone else is going to get what we have and so we do what we can to protect it at the expense of others. We see people freaking out about social security, and medicare, and creating policies that don't benefit the population as a whole, rather a small part of it. I'm waiting for the day when we realize that there is enough for everyone if we all decide to stop guarding what we have so zealously that we lose track of what's really important. If we help other people in our community, our community at large becomes a better place. (Visualize your neighborhood community and then move outward.) I choose to live my life with this perspective (although sometimes I slip), because I want to live in a world where people aren't afraid to live their lives. So I'm going to leave a stable job and go to school because it's what I love and I know I'll contribute more to my community if I'm happy. And I'm not going to look at life in terms of how I'm getting screwed because I'm not a victim and I have power to improve my situation. And so do you. [ thus endith the nausiating idealism ]
• In three easy installments of $99.99 +S&H ;-)
• Well yeah. I always forget that part. Thanks stepself.
• Follow-up Post - The Guardian has an article today reporting on a UK government report that concludes "Tuition is the 'norm' abroad". You can read the full report here. [Obligatory PDF warning]. I have looked through the whole report, and I'm glad I did, as they do seem to have some inaccuracies. For instance, they report Canada as having differential fees, which is true.* But the big variations are by program or by province; the cost of a BA at universities in Ontario, for instance, seems to only vary by about $1000 out of $5000/year. Yes, that is a fair bit, but when it comes down to it, it wouldn't really change your choice of university. Whereas some of the universities in the UK have asked to charge up to three times as much as other universities, and they seem to be inevitably the more prestigious universities. (Our insanely high tuition in Ontario for law and medicine is just insane, the product of a government gone very, very bad.) They also point to the fact that participation in higher education in Canada and Australia increased among lower-income students over the last decade, despite both countries increasing tuition. But that does not mean that tuition does not affect participation - there are many other factors increasing participation (employment fears being one ofthe strongest), and what we don't know is what the participation rate would have been had tuition not tripled while I was a teenager. *They also weirdly report Canada as charging the same for international as for domestic students, which is not true, but maybe that's just because it's the same for all citizens, no matter where they live. It doesn't actually have any bearing on the outcome of the report.
• Warren Ellis on top-up fees
• Great article, dng. I think he may mis-state the case when he suggests that without higher education young people will be working at McDonalds (we actually need more skilled artisans and tradespeople), but I do like how he speaks out against "education on a transactional basis". That's the direction it is going (like a handbasket to hell) in North America, and the only effect seems to be to make the students less interested in learning and more interested in being served. And I think I have a new tag line - "I'm going to spend the money on Communism." The italics are just such a nice touch.
• Of course, after all my big girl's blouse wailing, I scored 2 fat contracts for January. "Stay in school as long as you can" is my advice. You'll know when it's time to bail.
• Congratulations, Wolof!
• Yes, congratulations!
• Too kind, too kind.
• I've derailed my own thread... Ah, good times. I understand that universities can't be entirely in the red, but still wonder at how people don't see education as a good investment and, in fact, a vital facet of a country's infrastructure. Ah well, Hope Wolof is Dr. WOlof at this point.
• Been Dr Wolof for about 2 years now. Shortly to be "unemployed Dr Wolof".
• (Okay, 2 years in January.)
• Really? Cause see, I got this rash . . .
• What it's actually good for is telling people outrageous lies, then saying "Trust me, I'm a doctor!"
• I have no sympathy - it's their fault for trusting doctors, so naive. I prefer to follow the wisdom of six year olds.
• I grew up in Alaska, and back in the day, if you took out a college loan from the state, then returned to Alaska after you graduated, and stayed there for three years, the loan would be waived. Sadly, they quit this plan about two years before I graduated high school. Ten years after graduating college, they're still after me to finish off the loan payments. I keep hoping that if I wait long enough, they'll reinstate the loan waiver policy again. Hell, I'd move back to Anchorage for three years, if it would get them off my back.