May 11, 2004

• Seems we're all ending up blind. Crap. (404, it seems. Plus (as it seems to have been the grisly decapitation video) you should have put some warning.)
• My browser is telling me the link is to somewhere that doesn't exist. To you comment on the state of the world: I have given up on democracy. There is a better form of government; Plato wrote about it in his Republic. Sure, we might have to kill some people in the initial years of its institution, but that number is nothing compared with the rate of death at the moment. Also, under the Platonic system, politically-motivated homocide will drop off to almost nothing, after a while. The politically-motivated homocide rate under democracy is rising again.
• Decapitation is nothing. Now that those pictures of Iraqi prisoners being tortured are out, the last thing I'd want to be is a American prisoner of theirs. When they take some more hostages we'll see what true torture is.
• When they take some more hostages we'll see what true torture is. I am so tired of of the their torture and murder is worse than ours argument. Is that the standards that America wants to be judged by. Americans should be better than terrorists. The reason are Americans are outraged about Abu Ghraib Prison scandal is that Americans hold themselves to a higher standard than terrorists. Not only is the comparing torure from different sides is assinine, it also lets the guilty get themselves off the hook.
• Sullivan, no one's arguing that Americans shouldn't be better than terrorists. I'm simply stating that WE opened this can of worms, and innocent Americans will suffer as a result.
• And I'll think you'll find in the upcoming weeks that their torture WILL BE WORSE. WANNA BET?
• Unusual: We're armchair quarterbacking on this one. Let's ask the tortured to compare which side's worse.
• And I'll think you'll find in the upcoming weeks that their torture WILL BE WORSE. WANNA BET? That's why they are terrorists and criminals. They have no respect for laws or human rights. And you're still making the torture argument. This lowers standards of decency, not raise them. Here is a Guardian article on the hostage that was beheaded.
• www.torturedbannanas.com
• Sullivan, I'm making no such argument. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though.
• I guess the original link couldnt handle the traffic. Its also up at http://www.ogrish.com You know, my gut tells me this is sick. But then again my gut also tells me that collateral damage is sick, the killing of Daniel Pearl is sick, the murder of 25 iraqi prisoners is sick...ad infinitum. No one is more sicker than the other. When humans on both sides of the fence act like animals, where is the hope? There's no "them" and "us". We're all human damnit! Even though some (on both sides of the fence) fail to grasp what is meant by being human and having compassion for your fellow human. Aw..let me just shuddup! Where's a goddamned meteor when you need one huh?!
• Where's a goddamned meteor when you need one huh?! Near miss.
• Perhaps it was a warning.
• When they take some more hostages we'll see what true torture is. Bullshit. Torture is torture. We don't get a little torture because we've developed guidelines about how frequently and what types to engage in, or because of the potential informatics that torture could result in. The path that Israel took to justify minor humanitarian infractions led them to some truly unpleasant and unwholesome decisions. Let's be better than torturers, ok? Let's be better than executioners.
• also, ramix, ffs -- mark ogrish with a nsfw, ok?
• Bullshit. Torture is torture. We don't get a little torture because we've developed guidelines about how frequently and what types to engage in, or because of the potential informatics that torture could result in. Double bullshit. Some torture is worse than others. Don't you watch movies?
• Double bullshit. Some torture is worse than others. Don't you watch movies? Priceless.
• an oversight on my part boo..no need to throw a hissy fit. Certain, you know, puny as that asteroid was, i'm inclined to agree that it was a sign. A warning perhaps...now if only the powers that be were paying attention...
• Just because everyone seems bound and determined to misrepresent what I'm trying to say here (and because I'm at work and can't always form a lengthy, thoughtful post) here it is again in bullet points: * Muslim fundies hate Americans because they think we're at war with Islam * Pictures surface of Iraqi prisoners being mistreated (some might call it torture) * Said fundies become even more enraged at America * Treat American prisoners worse, as revenge
• Hey Sullivan, since you're our torture expert, why don't you tell us how all torture is the same. With anecdotes, please.
• I'm simply stating that WE opened this can of worms, and innocent Americans will suffer as a result. Yeah, because these sick fucks never engaged in this kind of behavior before Iraq.
• Hey Sullivan, since you're our torture expert, why don't you tell us how all torture is the same. With anecdotes, please. Listen to a Neil Diamond or Lionel Ritchie record. Both artists have their own musical styles. The end result in both cases is torture. Don't believe me, try listening to Dancing On the Ceiling and Love On the Rocks.
• Don't you watch movies? Are you referring to Van Helsing? Then yes, some torture is worse than others. I will admit that I glossed over this post of your between your original post -- "We'll see what true torture is" -- and the one with an all cap phrase. Some I've talked to think this is a good reason to start wholesale reciprocation of torture and murder.
• Oh Lordy, let's not bring Neil or Lionel into this. The madness have got to stop.
• Pretty violent thread!
• have = has I really shouldn't post from work.
• The point is being lost here, methinks. Torture is bad m'kay? Lots of things are bad, and inhuman and unjust, and its pretty moot to talk about which heinous crime is the most heinous. One doesn't justify the other, by most peoples definition of 'justify'. (But that's easy for me to say sat in my kitchen in California.)
• Leviathan : Isn't it funny how we're not in Pakistan, though? In fact, we're sending them $700 mil and granting them ally status. Maybe that's all the Iraqis were looking for -- financial aid and treaties.
• I'm a liberal, but I have always found Rush Limbaugh harmless. Most of his listeners don't donate to campaign or vote. I always thought Rush was about selling Rush. Not the Republican Party. His tv show was an informercial for Rush products. I found Rush's about Abu Ghraib prison scandal revealing.

  "If you look at these pictures, you cannot deny that there are elements of homoeroticism

• boo_radley, saying that because Pearl's murder happened in Pakistan means that we should invade Pakistan is like saying the U.S. should have invaded itself after 9/11. Things are a little more complicated than that and the difference between friend and enemy is a sliding scale (unless you're saying you agree with Bush's 'with us or against us' philosophy) Jesus Christ, did anyone blame Abu Ghraib on the Iraqis? Why in the hell are we blaming the latest Islamist murder on the U.S.? Hunt them down and kill every last one of them because there will always be another excuse when they cut the heads off innocent people. Create a Palestinian state and these animals will blame their murders on troops in Saudi Arabia; evacuate those troops and they'll blame Kashmir; give the whole thing over to Islamists and it'll be because they can't have their own state in the Phillipines; give them their shariah state there and they have an endless list of imaginary Jewish plots to fall back on. Their list of grievances -- real or imagined -- are infinite. Nothing excuses or explains chopping a man's head off. Nothing.
• Unless you're Uma Thurman. Then it's hot.
• Clearly the Bush propaganda machine staged this atrocity with the help of the CIA. Otherwise, why would Berg's parents try to sue the Feds? 'On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military in Iraq.' May 8, Associated Press
• Nothing excuses or explains chopping a man's head off. Nothing. That's why we need safety videos. All crassness aside, I certainly hope this gets the kind of air time that the prison scandal has gotten. In the interest of fairness. Oh boy. I'm already seeing media equivocation...Look at this - "American Beheaded for Abuse". "Abuse Scandal's Deadly Fallout" Lovely. Our press has the memory of a fish...
• the US government got us where we are, look what they have accomplished...all the torture and death on both sides, a more unstable environment...I don't know how to respond...I am angry. What ramix said, its sick...looks for a meteor
• Clearly the Bush propaganda machine staged this atrocity with the help of the CIA. Otherwise, why would Berg's parents try to sue the Feds? Don't you hate the net? How it helps one to question what the media lays as evident? How it helps foster suspicion? As it is, seems Mr. Berg wasn't on the best terms with authorities there. Was he on his own? Not a contractor per se, but something of a free entrepreneur? And the timing of this video: just as the scandal went wide open, this. Odd. And the emphasis on names, on faces. Media is making it clear he had one, he was a human being. Not just another nameless american soldier or iraqi rebel. I hate this. How we can't anymore believe what we're told, what we see. How it's all tainted, spun.
• I'm so goddamn sick of hearing about the religion of peace. Fuck them. As to the republican assholes who support this so called war, fuck you. Fuck you. And fuck you. This young man's death was so horrible and so totally unnecessary. He should be at home chasing chicks at the local bar. But thanks to our piece of shit president and his no good, war mongering toadies, this poor guy died a horrible, horrible death. (Watch the video.) Pull out. Bring our troops home. Now. It's only going to get worse. I just pray that that cock ass of a president we have watches this, though I doubt his handlers will let him. Too upsetting for the young junior. If he does have the balls to watch it, I hope it fucks him totally. I hope he can imagine his daughers or nephews or whatever in the same situation. How 'bout it republicodicks? Can you see Jenna Bush in that situation?
• Wait! I'm back “Our thoughts and prayers are with his family,” White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan said of Berg. “It shows the true nature of the enemies of freedom. They have no regard for the lives of innocent men, women and children. We will pursue those who are responsible and bring them to justice.” True nature of the enemies of freedom? What the fuck Scott? What enemies of freedom? Are these people kicking your door down in the dark of night? I don't fucking think so. Enemies of freedom my ass. Look in the mirror Scott. Drag your shitass boss into the mirror as well. Enemies of freedom indeed.
• Hey look! Trolls!
• Bad beer! Bad beer! Sorry. Just felt strongly. Asprin. Water. Sleep.
• damnitkage, yup...Bush held that knife to that young man's throat and drew it across. And Cheney and Rumsfeld videotaped the whole thing. I have a question: Someone comes into your home and kills your wife. Do you A. Find the person and see they are brought to justice B. Blame your kids because they didn't lock the door "You killed mommy! It's your fault!" "But I didn't..." "Mommy-killer!" Just come out and admit it, you sneering punk. You don't give a damn about the troops. You'd spit in their faces if you could get away with it. But my doesn't this make a handy vehicle for you to spew venom at people you don't agree with?
• Right, because: foreign policy = The Troops disliking the pres = venom!
• MonkeyFilter: Just come out and admit it, you sneering punk
• Sneering punk?! Jesus, you stupid dumbass. If you'll read I said that this young man shouldn't be there. However now where in my post did I say, nor did I imply that I don't support the troops. I'm all for the troops. Coming home and being safe.
• Hunt them down and kill every last one of them... the_leviathan-- stop a second, take a breath, and look to the top of your browser. See what it says next to "MonkeyFilter"? Bring them to justice, certainly, but seeking revenge makes us no better than the "evildoers". How will violence end unless one side is willing to not strike back?
• Jeez, arguments aside, stop with the namecalling already. Fling some poo or something, get rid of your aggression some other way instead of typing out naughty words.
• Ah yes, the "cycle of violence," in which we agree that we're all equally bad and if we only lay down our weapons the attacks will stop. We did that several times and OBL was only emboldened, calling us a paper tiger. I know this is a fun site, but we're talking about a human being having his head sawed off and then put out there as snuff to feed the fantasies of some of the sickest people on the planet.
• this is true most of the time, zedediah, but haven't these radical muslim groups pledged to kill all westerners, or something to that effect? leaving the region entirely is probably the quickest way to stop such acts from occurring again (in the short run, anyway)
• the_leviathan-- Yes, and we're angry and upset and want to do something about it. The problem with striking back "an eye for an eye" is that, while it might satisfy our bloodlust for a bit, the other side will only try to hurt us more. Where would you stop? Who would you target for revenge? Would you be satisfied if all Arabs were dead? How about all Muslims? Would you nuke a country until it glows in the dark? Are you able to support genocide? Your suggestion to "hunt them down" would make us into the very demons we accuse them of being. sutureself-- Yes, I understand that's what many have said. From their perspective, we are the pagan invaders and corrupters of their culture, and they want us gone. We should oblige them.
• Would you be satisfied if all Arabs were dead? How about all Muslims? ... I am talking about these murderers and those who glory in their deeds. I do not think most Muslims fit that category and so have no interest in anything but leaving them alone.
• *trips by, dancing, listens, keeps daisies to self, dances on past*
• Wow, I was gonna apologize for the troll call... but damn, now I don't need to. Take to usenet, kids.
• I hope this cartoon's got it wrong. Sadly, my cynical side isn't hoping for much..
• Gentlemen, please - the background here is purple, not blue. Torture - done by anyone - is both dishonorable and, ultimately useless, for a tortured subject will tell the torturer any volume of lies to make the torture stop. The American prison guards tortured their charges because they found it amusing; the al Qaeda, because they sought revenge and wished to inflame the hearts of the west. Both are worthy of our utmost contempt. But neither Americans nor Muslims deserve the blame for the actions of the few. It is my hope that Arabs feel the same level of contempt for the al Qaeda who did this thing, as we Americans do for the Abu Ghraib guards. And that each receives the response they deserve. But I have come to the conclusion that the middle east is not a place for Westerners, and that America should abandon the place, in every possible sense of the word, and advise our friends and allies to do the same. Honor demands it, regardless of what the rest of the world cares to do. Enough of our people have died in furtherance of a freedom that Iraq neither asked for, nor wanted, nor ultimately has, and our efforts, such as they are, have been rewarded with fire, blood and rage. The only people that can reign in Arab terrorists are Arabs. The only people that can bring democracy to the Middle East are Middle Eastern. They will either do so, or not. But it cannot be our business any longer.
• levathan: You could start in your home country before bugging Arabs in Iraq. Fes: There's a reason a lot of what Don Rumsfield contemptuosly refers to as Old Europe are cautious about adventures in the Middle East. They have had empires. They know where this leads, and many of them (France WRT to Algeria, for example) are still dealing with the fallout. Of course, Rumsfield isn't much interested in the lessons of history. Or the Geneva convention. Or Maerica's honour. Or much of anything other than holdng on to his job. But that's another issue. People have to want to change. We should help people who want to change. We cannot impose change, although we can (and should) distance ourselves from those who want things we find repugnant. Kissing up to vile dictatorships like China and Saudi Arabia, but the West appears too ken on cheap oil and fat profit margins for Walmart to be concerned with the long term repercussions.
• levi, cool it with the inflammatory rhetoric unless you're willing to grab a rifle and enlist. one wouldn't want to sound like a hypocritical warmongering coward, right? truth be told, however, the rest of us wouldn't wish any of that shit on our worst enemies.
• Also, some wisdom from the Tao Te Ching seems appropriate, especially if some of you haven't read it yet:

  29. TAKING NO ACTION The external world is fragile, and he who meddles with its natural way, risks causing damage to himself. He who tries to grasp it, thereby loses it. It is natural for things to change, sometimes being ahead, sometimes behind. There are times when even breathing may be difficult, whereas its natural state is easy. Sometimes one is strong, and sometimes weak, sometimes healthy, and sometimes sick, sometimes is first, and at other times behind. The sage does not try to change the world by force, for he knows that force results in force. He avoids extremes and excesses, and does not become complacent. 30. A CAVEAT AGAINST VIOLENCE When leading by the way of the Tao, abominate the use of force, for it causes resistance, and loss of strength, showing the Tao has not been followed well. Achieve results but not through violence, for it is against the natural way, and damages both others' and one's own true self. The harvest is destroyed in the wake of a great war, and weeds grow in the fields in the wake of the army. The wise leader achieves results, but does not glory in them; is not proud of his victories, and does not boast of them. He knows that boasting is not the natural way, and that he who goes against that way, will fail in his endeavours. 31. MAINTAINING PEACE Weapons of war are instruments of fear, and are abhorred by those who follow the Tao. The leader who follows the natural way does not abide them. The warrior king leans to his right, from whence there comes his generals' advice, but the peaceful king looks to his left, where sits his counsellor of peace. When he looks to his left, it is a time of peace, and when to the right, a time for sorrow. Weapons of war are instruments of fear, and are not favoured by the wise, who use them only when there is no choice, for peace and stillness are dear to their hearts, and victory causes them no rejoicing. To rejoice in victory is to delight in killing; to delight in killing is to have no self-being. The conduct of war is that of a funeral; when people are killed, it is a time of mourning. This is why even victorious battle should be observed without rejoicing.

• a tad OT, but i just found this freeper thread while trying to make sense of all the sketchy business surrounding Nick Berg's arrest, FBI interrogation, etc. Yeah, that's Nick Berg's dad on the "enemy list". I don't even know what to say. How un-American (and un-Christian!) can you get? Psycho. Totally fucking psycho. This is what freepers do in their spare time? I thought LGF'ers were nuts, but... who does shit like this? Jesus.
• Who wants Ginger Snaps!?!
• Does any one know of the significance of Berg's clothing?
• Who wants Ginger Snaps!?! I do! I do!! (stuffs face) Wedge- thanks for reminding us of the Tao. These chapters are favorites of mine.
• a tad OT, but i just found this freeper thread while trying to make sense of all the sketchy business surrounding Nick Berg's arrest, FBI interrogation, etc. Yeah, that's Nick Berg's dad on the "enemy list". The freepers are more sad than dangerous. Imagine what these angry white guys' real lives are like. Not condoning them. Just making an observation. Billy Bragg wrote a line in a song (that I don't exactly remember). He sang something like: "If there's a black list then put me on it."
• Here are the lyrics to the Billy Bragg song Waiting For The Great Leap Forwards here comes the future and you can't run from it If you've got a blacklist I want to be on it
• Just come out and admit it, you sneering punk
• *mmgfh* . . *chomp chomp* . . gwuh hoddog . . *mgff*