May 04, 2004

• Most people are. I doubt his brother's words will convince anyone, though. Those that want to believe Tillman was in some way doing God's work will do so regardless of any argument to the contrary. Those that believe otherwise won't change their minds any time soon. Personally, I don't think God has much to do with it one way or the other. The war in Afghanistan isn't about God, as such, as much as trying to get rid of people who want to kill us because of one interpretation of their holy writ. You can claim God or Allah or whatever higher power you want, but in the end, whatever message may be sent has to get filtered through one or two humans to get to the masses and of course, that's where we fsck it all up. Believe if you want to, or don't believe, but definitely don't believe when someone claims to have the ultimate interpretation of some higher being's word. Sorry for the preaching. Blind faith in human institutions really bothers me.
• Actually, did you ever consider that Tillman looked like a one dimensional puppet to you because his actions had been massaged for print by the parties attempting to deify him and aggressively name him as a champion of their cause (military, religious or other)? Me, I think it's good to read the news with a dose of cynicism, but directed toward the potential spin or omissions and not the individuals dragged under a spotlight.
• arch1 you clearly haven't been getting your RDA of television. Here, sit, have a beverage and be entertained by the dancing lights. His brother's comment is very out of context (unless you were actually there, and not reading or seeing anything else about it), but IMMO it's important because of it's finality. Hero, stooge, friend, foe; he's dead. That's what we have here. Nothin' but spin left. oops, heh, I didn't mean left as in "the left", just "remaining". That's right.
• Hmm, if we do anything other than demonize atheists, people might cease to think they are all satanic baby-eating goat rapists! Won't someone think of the babies?
• P_B, you may be right about my tellyanemia. I scanned my post and noted "read" the news rather than watch... and driving, your point hits home; I wonder if the large news agencies cranking out this story will bother to appropriately postscript the story they were so excited to tell-- giving Tillman the dimension he deserved.
• arch1 - no way in hell, for the reason cited in my above post.
• Certainly the portrait made him sound like an actual loss to the world, as opposed to most of the "NFL sytar gets hopped up on rage, want to kill ragheads" rah-rah stories I've seen to date. And good on his brother.
• I was rather touched by the SF Gate article. I didn't know what to think of the whole mess when it first came out because, as has been noted above, there was so much manipulation on both sides that it was difficult for me to read signal above noise. I would like to read a transcript, or watch unedited video, but compared to Maria Shriver invoking the same old shit from uncle Jack, I'd say li'l bro was a breath of fresh air, and I'd be proud if one of my siblings did the same for me (though i certainly am not trying to compare myself to Pat).
• I'm more intrigued to know now why he took the decision to join the army rangers in the first place. Yes, it's an unfortunate loss, but in the end it was his decision to make the sacrifice. How worthwhile it was? How worthwhile it could be? I'm still not sure myself. But at least I hope it was worthwhile in his mind.
• Well, I just returned to the most recent issue of Time Magazine, and read their Tillman article in full. While nothing conflicts with the picture of Tillman given by his family and friends at his memorial service, I'm amazed at how little print Time even devoted to who he was... that is, outside of the context of his football prowess and the fact that he had a strong, authoritarian presence and good grades. Really, multiple pages, and not a hint of the real Pat Tillman.
• Can someone please point me to an article that claimed Pat Tillman was a Christian? Because I don't remember seeing it. Not sure how this piece is exploding a myth, given that the myth never existed in the first place. So here you have a guy who walked away from millions of dollars to kill AQ in Afghanistan, yet the consensus on here is his story only becomes interesting and gains "depth" because he wasn't religious? The only way you start to consider him as anything other than a dumb dead jock is because he didn't believe in God?
• No one is saying that, the_leviathan. Did you read the article?
• I've been to many funerals for non-religious friends and family, and every single one of them - without exception - were preachy wankfests. I sure wanted to shout "bullshit."
• well, pat's brother should remember that funerals are for the survivors because the deceased is, well, fucking dead. and perhaps his mother, for instance, wouldn't want to be reminded in such an abrupt manner that her son is fucking DEAD.
• Of course we don't know Tillman's brother except from this outburst. Or the rest of his family. Hey, it just struck me, where was Bush? Didn't he want to attend this patriot's funeral? I bet the Secret Service would've put the kibosh on anything off-program if Bush were there...
• I don't see why the survivors should be treated like children incapable of comrehending the complexities of a life. Why should things be sugarcoated at a funeral? To me it seems dishonest and disrespectful. Participants have one last chance to publicly confront the departed (who, of course, sadly has no rebuttal) and if they are not honest now, then when will they be? Funerals should be about exorcizing the ghost and stirring emotion, I'm not sure who is best served by the rehashing the bland tautology of the funeral rite.
• Pat's brother is one of the survivors too.
• I've been to many funerals for non-religious friends and family, and every single one of them - without exception - were preachy wankfests. Honestly, what funeral isn't a preachy wankfest? I'm not the most religious of people, but I'm pretty damn sure that I'd want people commiserating over my dirtnappin' ass when I kick it.
• surlyboi, does that include preaching a religion with which you don't subscribe?
• In your name and for your honor?
• Whatever gets you through the night. If it helps people deal with my passing and as long as they're not hurting others in the process, they can do whatever the hell they want to help them get over it. My ass is dead and I've gone on to whatever fate has in store, whatever I believe or don't believe at that point is pretty moot.
• When I die, please don't preach at my funeral.
• Young people don't think much about what they'd want their funerals to be like, so it's up to their family and friends to come up with the appropriate ceremony. This ceremony appears to have been taken over by a lot of big forces outside that close circle. I can understand why at least some of the family would have been upset. On the other hand, his brother may find solace someday in the fact that Tillman had more pomp, circumstance and honors than most of the people who've been killed in Iraq have. And yes, many funerals are "preachy wankfests" because most families aren't able, so soon after the death, of coming up with specific plans, so the funeral home hires their on-call minister to preside. At that point, it's the luck of the draw. My family was lucky when my 90 year old father died 3 years ago. He had vanity published 2 slim books on his life, which the on-call guy actually read. My father loved women, horses, fun and drink - which the books made very clear - and hadn't been to church in 50 years or so. The on-call guy actually read the books and, while he said he didn't agree with my father's religious leanings, he did "celebrate" his life. It was really quite touching. That contrasted sharply with the guy who did my grandfather's funeral - he never communicated with the family and gave a stirring sermon on what a great family guy Rube had been. Under other circumstances, we'd have laughed at that since nothing was further from the facts. As I say, it's in the luck of the draw.
• I know that the brother's line, "He's f-cking dead," is not a major part of the issue, but one of the google news articles did pretty much say that saying that was a nod to Pat Tillman's tendency to curse deliberately at inappropriate times -- which I think is both sweet and funny, especially since other articles have reacted to the brother's crassness.
• MonkeyFilter: Preachy Wankfest!
• As opposed to preachy wankfest? Just what is it you are saying, Mr. Best?
• I'd be inclined to allow these people to exorcise their grief in whatever way works for them. As for Tillman himself, he's beyond caring, and in any event funerals aren't held for the deceased, but those who remain. As for Ms. Knapp's article, funeral stories are easy stories, crammed with layer upon pressurized layer of ancient, fossilized cliche just waiting to be harvested by half-ass columnists and rehydrated into fatty wads of literary gristle, so we may chew and nod sagely at the Meaninglessness Of It All.
• Stop it, you're making me hungry.
• No one is saying that, the_leviathan. Did you read the article? Are you just being obtuse, i feel unusual? The opening line here was I was the first to be against all this BS about Pat but the first article changed my mind. Maybe he actually was a real guy and not a one dimesional puppet. Saying that atheism is what made Pat Tillman interesting is rather like saying Teddy Roosevelt was a fascinating character because he had a moustache. And as an agnostic myself, I plan on tucking Mr. Tillman away for the next time a believer is arguing that non-believers have no deeper sense of justice or morality.
• Thanks for posting this. It humanized Tillman for me. The soundbytes and the images on tv can be so distancing and distorting. Which, for what it's worth, is all that I think i feel unusual was saying, the_leviathan
• Atheism made Pat Tillman interesting in the sense that it turns out he was more than the walking cliche of the God-fearing, Republican-voting, ass-kicking American soldier. That's all anyine here was trying to say, the_leviathan. You're putting words in people's mouths AND oversimplifying their positions. His funeral was being hijacked for political and religious purposes. His death was being co-opted for Jesus and the Republicans, and Pat's brother had the balls to stand up and shout "bullshit."
• anyine = anyone, for those who care
• So you didn't read the article, then, leviathan.
• Yes, rodgerd, I did read the article. Multiple times. I don't post without reading the links. Don't conflate the piece with the position of posters here. The article was solely about Tillman's lack of belief in God, which multiple posters took as the most interesting and humanizing part of his story.
• The_leviathan I was more talking about the BS generated by the media about how much of a Hero Tillman was because he left all the money to go to war. I really didn't care whether he was Christan or not. I just have a problem with the dehumanization that happens to people like Tillman or Jessica Lynch. They become cardboard cut outs of heros and not real people.
• the_leviathan:" The article was solely about Tillman's lack of belief in God" And you claim to have read the article? Multiple times??? I suggest you read it again. The article talked about how he read the Bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Henry David Thoreau. It mentioned conversations he had with coaches, teammates, and friends. These are the parts of the article that people found interesting, and changed their impressions of the man. Not just his atheism. I suspect that's what Uncle was referring to when he said the article changed his mind.
• Leviathan, to put it bluntly, you have a problem wither with reading comprehension or with honesty, as rocket88 points out. But since you appear to be happy with your insulting cariciture of the posters in the thread, I'll be happy to leave you with it.
• CNN article says that the army knew he'd been killed by other Rangers weeks before they told the truth about what happened. I wonder why they'd let so many news cycles go by about a famous NFL player-turned-soldier getting killed in war, without mentioning that it was his own army that killed him?
• gee, did leviathan delete his account because of this?
• Dunno, but i noticed that too.
• *bink* the sound of the litte lightbulb appearing over my head as it finally dawns on me how "anonymous" posts happen.
• level up!!
• Glad to have helped out, roryk. Now where's my insidious mini iPod???
• I though tracicle made it impossible for a member to delete his/her own account. One could do that early on, but that meant we couldn't search for a comments by a dear departed. Since several complained about the confusing nature of "Anonymous", tracicle began just disabling the accounts of folks who were serious about leaving. IF this person deleted his account, would he have to have hacked it?
• Nope, it wasn't all that long ago in the grand scheme of MoFi that I disabled the "Delete Account" button.

• Now where's my insidious mini iPod???

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• Heehee. Thanks, roryk. *HUGS*
• my pleasure. it's a nice object to "draw".
• After Pat’s Birthday
• Curse you Red Baron! *posts in Pat Tillman thread anyway even though this one is more appropriate*
• Startling findings in probe of Tillman's death
• Looks like a lot of cover up. I take it that's the majority of the "startling" part. The event itself, from what I've read, looks like standard SNAFU and a shame.
• My grandad fought in WW2 in the Pacific, he said that the Yanks were always shooting each other because they were trigger happy bastards.
• That's more or less the way the article describes it too.
• Thanks for the anecdote, Chy. My father was a navy medic in the Pacific in WWII, never fired a shot, but saved the lives of countless people who did. Maybe your grandad's pals were some of them. My anecdote.
• Tillman case memo fuels cover-up theory
• But to skeptics, the memo suggests the Pentagon was more concerned with protecting the president from embarrassment than with disclosing the difficult truth to Tillman's family -- who were finally informed four weeks later. Crazy skeptics.
• *still sniggering
• Former Pfc. Jessica Lynch and the brother of Army Ranger Pat Tillman told a House panel Tuesday that the U.S. military lied about Tillman's death and Lynch's capture. Lied? Now why would they go and do a thing like that for. That'll just hurt their credibility y'know. 9/11. Freedom for brown people. smoking gun is a mushroom cloud. Gay marriage.
• Here's a clip.
• Pat’s “Worm Dirt”
• Ouch.
• Dammit, these people are ASSHOLES. And they have the balls to call themselves Christian? Tillmans are mad because their son is DEAD. And because they were LIED to. And because he lost his life in a shitstorm of a war for OIL so rich bastards could continue to line their pockets. With one day's worth of the financing that is going to this evil war, solar energy researchers could get the boost they need to get this off the ground. With two days' worth of financing, we could have solar installed and get a massive boost up to being 20% oil free in a decade.
• White House, Pentagon cite executive privilege to hold up documents on friendly fire victim Tillman
• New Details on Tillman's Death
• Soldier at Tillman's Side in Afghanistan Recalls Former NFL Player's Final Moments
• Who Ordered the Execution of NFL/Army Hero Pat Tillman?
• Mary Tillman speaks on Army Gen. Stanley McChrystal and his role in covering up the truth about her son's death.
• "I'm Pat Fucking Tillman"
• Yup, you can kill 'em, but don't screw 'em or swear at 'em.