July 13, 2008

• I'm not at all convinced by this list. I've seen people do most of these things in the past, and it's usually ended in failure and isolation. Indeed, the only people I've known to use these kind of underhanded tactics and succeed were people with some other, unrelated, skill which caused them to be promoted and successful despite their nastiness. Which, is, I suppose, the point: I've seen people do this. These might be framed as 'laws' you can just follow, but most of these things are actually quite difficult to pull off. Manipulating people is tough, because people are pretty good at noticing that kind of thing. See, this writer is forgetting the 49th Law of Power, which is this: When you have power, carefully watch the people below you. Purposefully promote those who don't follow the other 48 laws. Promote people who work selflessly and let other people take the credit. Promote people who speak the truth even when it might damage them in the eyes of others. Promote people who don't seem desperate to fit in, who don't suck up to you, who are consistent in their loyalties and friendships. In other words, try these tactics only if you are absolutely sure that you are the smartest person in the whole organisation. Because if you aren't much, much smarter than everybody else, the people above you will notice, and invoke the 49th Law to your detriment.
• I expect, as with Machiavelli, much of the appeal of the book is the stories chosen to illustrate the laws. It strikes me as an appealing literary challenge to write a fictional story showing all the laws at work (or perhaps more amusing, the failure of all the laws).
• I searched through the Laws for *discipline* or *self control* without success.
• Quite an unpleasant read, that took me back to some of the worst years of my life. Surrounded by people who, knowingly or not, followed rules such as those as if seduced by the sirens of Hell, they took immoral, unethical and uncaring behavior to be the bylaws of good business, or at least of successful career management. Vile stuff.
• Here's a tip for office workers trying to get ahead in the cut-throat world of corporate politics: DO YOUR FUCKING JOB. Focus your energy on COMPLETING YOUR WORK QUICKLY AND WELL. If you have spare cycles, FIND SOME EXTRA WORK TO DO. You're being paid to perform a certain set of duties. Not to simmer at your desk pondering which of the 48 Laws of Power you should act upon during your lunch with Bill in Accounting later today.
• SUPERHERO 101 FINAL EXAM Question 8 (5 marks) With great power comes great ... (A) responsibility. (B) electricity bills. (C) dental and medical benefits. (D) paperwork. (E) spandex outfits.
• This is why sociopaths do so well in hierarchical employment structures.
• Ah, quid, you make rainy Sundays worthwhile.
• Sociopathic behavior indeed!
• I didn't really see an interview going on in the interview link. I never found the book to be that Machiavellian. I think many are common sense, and many are contradictory. Like rules five and six. Five says to be sure to stand out in only positive ways, while six says to stand out and attract any attention, positive or negative.
• Oh gawd. I made it halfway through the list before I realized that it wasn't "The 48 Laws of Poker".
• Way back in axial age China, Mohists advocated elevating the worthy. Born two millennia too late :( Actually, no-one listened to them then, either, come to think of it.
• sorry, i stopped after rule one when my mouth immediately spat out, "FUCK THAT!"
• Although the Mohists sound like an unusually enlightened bunch, I'd have trouble with "rejecting music" (and presumably other forms of art). And the whole scare 'em with ghosts and religion thing. As well as their emphasis on conformity, not least because "conforming upward" can easily become "managing up", a technique much favored in the original post. And their apparent scant regard for that part of the world outside human society, like nature and stuff.
• I searched through the Laws for *discipline* or *self control* without success. Not quite true. I think some of the Laws are fairly worth following, and they do imply discipline and/or self control: Law 22: Use the Surrender Tactic: Transform Weakness into Power - the use of surrender implies great self-control, to swallow your pride in order to achieve long-term goals. Law 29: Plan All the Way to the End - Planning, and keeping to the plan, is all about discipline, isn't it? Law 35: Master the Art of Timing - This one is practically Biblical. And not least of all: Law 47: Do not go Past the Mark you Aimed for; In Victory, Learn when to Stop - If this Law doesn't require discipline self-control, I don't know what does. Some Laws I think are worth looking at: Law 4: Always Say Less than Necessary - if more of us could do this (me included, and especially), I think the world would be a far less contentious place. Law 9: Win through your Actions, Never through Argument - "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still." Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself – Isolation is Dangerous - I think alot of people who go quietly crazy and then blow up in society's face are too isolated. Socialisation is important. Law 19: Know Who You’re Dealing with – Do Not Offend the Wrong Person - I don't like this Law, but I know it's true. There are people I know I can offend if I must, but there are people who I know who will hold a grudge to the end of time. Law 28: Enter Action with Boldness - I would like to follow this law, there's so much I still want to do. Law 29: Plan All the Way to the End - this echoes one of the famed 7 Habits: Begin With The End In Mind. Law 40: Despise the Free Lunch - this one teaches caution. Oftimes, free lunches are traps. So it's not all bad. Alot of the other stuff is self-serving behavior, and I can understand how some people try to 'protect' themselves using those laws.
• The guy is not actually *advocating* any of this, he is pointing all this out in a very cynical, objective manner.
• A literal word search won't find self discipline mentioned in the Laws, though something of that may be inferred. Still, my feeling is that cut-throat machinations imply a soft underbelly to the person's work ethic. And I'd look especially hard at such a politician!
• Dan can you name one politician specifically? Just one. There's just not enough bandwidth for the rest.
• The name that rhymes with tush? Oh! That guy's name? Help me out here... and why are my car keys in the butter dish, Bluehorse?
• Still, my feeling is that cut-throat machinations imply a soft underbelly to the person's work ethic. Um, where do you see cut-throat machinations? So far, out every Law that's been listed in this thread, none of them are "cut-throat machinations" by any means, and I can't see it in the remaining Laws.
• It may well be that I am deluded through a scanner darkly, and I always wanted to avoid politics, but kindly consider these for a start: Get others to do the Work for you, but Always Take the Credit: the obverse of this one is to use scape-goating to deflect righteous indignation from (dare I say it?) the current administration. Make other People come to you – use Bait if Necessary: the various red herrings of the last election were nothing but moonfish bait, if you please. Infection: Avoid the Unhappy and Unlucky: need I say that many in the USA have become disenfrancised through this machination? Learn to Keep People Dependent on You: we're all in the soup now! Use Selective Honesty and Generosity to Disarm your Victim: our pain is His pain, right? So a token return of our over-taxed dollars, or a muffed FEMA effort is good enough, so far. When Asking for Help, Appeal to People’s Self-Interest: but later it turns out to be a bald lie (viz, Cheney when he seemingly trounced Lieberman, and I quote: “No nation building. No foreign adventures!” Pose as a Friend, Work as a Spy: and now this whole wire tapping and Internet guiltifying thing! Crush your Enemy Totally: only the “enemy” is US (obviously it isn't THEM, the purportedly different, but US the fooled and indifferent). Use Absence to Increase Respect and Honor: more vacation days than any other one sitting (dare I say president?). Keep Others in Suspended Terror: Cultivate an Air of Unpredictability: did anyone mention **terror* every time the economy dips? Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself – Isolation is Dangerous: alright, he muffed this one, did that, done that... Know Who You’re Dealing with – Do Not Offend the Wrong Person: or the wrong demographic? This whole political table of current political demographics makes them fight the wrong battles! For example, Ted Roosevelt and true republicans before him (epitomized by Cole, of the American Landscape school of painting) – they wanted to stop the destruction of our natural environment, yet Rush is stuck. Play a Sucker to Catch a Sucker – Seem Dumber than your Mark: even though what's his name has said he's not the sharpest tool in the shed, and though he truly is lovable, in his own way, the Laws of Power, so invoked, do smack of cut-throat machinations. Must I go on? Already I sense surfeit. Others may or may not agree, but help me out here, someone? Are these ploys not machinations?
• Correction: Cole was politically a whig.
• That is, *Whig" capitalized. Also Democrats and Republicans need that treatment? Whigs are now the Liberal Pary? Whatever. *Goes back into Cave*
• Log Cabins and Hard Cider! Tippecanoe and Tyler too!
• The ones you point out that I can see it: Get others to do the Work for you, but Always Take the Credit -- I can see that as cut-throat machinations, although I don't think your point on it makes any sense. Use Selective Honesty and Generosity to Disarm your Victim -- This one could be cut-throat, depending on how you choose to practice it. Pose as a Friend, Work as a Spy -- Maybe cut-throat, but it's really just telling you to get along with oyour co-workers. Crush your Enemy Totally -- This one is cut-throat, sure. So 1 out of the 48 Laws is a cut-throat machination, with 3 maybes if you squint your eyes just right. The rest of them don't seem cut-throat by any means, and all your remarks on them seem totally unrelated and kinda like incoherent mini-rants: Make other People come to you – use Bait if Necessary -- This says to be useful. what's the problem? Infection: Avoid the Unhappy and Unlucky -- This one just says to avoid hanging out with pieces of shits, and avoid working at a piece of shit company. It's not evil to do that. Learn to Keep People Dependent on You -- Again, how is being useful the same as being lazy and cut-throat? When Asking for Help, Appeal to People’s Self-Interest -- Making sure someone else benefits when they help you isn't cut-throat, it's courteous. Use Absence to Increase Respect and Honor -- 'Don't annoy people' does not equal 'be cut-throat' Keep Others in Suspended Terror: Cultivate an Air of Unpredictability -- You are focusing on the wrong word, and changing the meaning of this law. Unpredictability is the keyword. The term terror there just means keep them on their toes by not being predictable. Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself – Isolation is Dangerous -- Again, what? How is this cut-throat? Know Who You’re Dealing with – Do Not Offend the Wrong Person -- 'Not pissing off your boss for no reason' does not equal 'be cut-throat' Play a Sucker to Catch a Sucker – Seem Dumber than your Mark -- I can't see it. And you some really crazy comment here. The only sense I can make out of it is a bootstrap argument 'this rule is evil because Bush does it; also Bush is evil because he does this rule'
• I don't really understand how making other people come to you is being useful to anyone but one's self. I also have a problem with the erquating of unhappy people to "pieces of shit." As a twenty-something-year veteran of clinical depression, I'm even inclined to find it a tad bigoted.
• Mr. Knickerbocker, I concede that a good-hearted and rigorous person, such as yourself, can apply these Laws in a nice way. I'll take your advice and try to do that myself. I was on a roll last night, thought I was being funny, but today it doesn't even look that way to me. *ears burn with shame* I also concede that our president may well be good-hearted too. Not sure where that leaves us though. Even good people can look bad, I guess. Please include me in that final category, my good new friend.
• Laws of Power really need to have been handed down by some ancient tyrant who has spent forty years in absolute power over a mighty empire which he fought and intrigued his way to the top of: but I don't believe that describes Robert Greene - or Machiavelli. Why would we bother with the Laws of Power of a frustrated and generally unsuccessful hack of a literary disposition? I imagine Joe Stalin's Laws of Power, for example, would number one: 1. Shoot the bastards.
• Sorry, rule 2: 2: They're all bastards.
• When do I get to reset the calendar?
• Next Renauary.
• On TUMSday the fifth.
• Rule 49: Have a lot of money. Trumps the first 48.
• I also concede that our president may well be good-hearted too Whoa whoa whoa!! I never said that, and never meant to imply that. A hammer can be used as a weapon, but that doesn't make it cut-throat. It's just a tool, with no intentions of it's own. It can be used constructively or destructively. I just don't like blaming the hammer. That kinda removes accountability from the person. I just disagreed with the idea that these laws were inherently evil. (I also disagree with the idea that Bush uses this book. I can't believe he uses anymore than 5 of these knowingly, and the ones he does use I don't think he got from this book.) Even good people can look bad, I guess. Please include me in that final category, my good new friend. I never thought you looked like a bad person. :)