July 02, 2007

Lancet study of Near Death Experiences - A prospective study of NDEs published in Lancet is worth reading. Link goes to blog post, here's the PDF link to the study.

Excerpt of note: "Our results show that medical factors cannot account for occurrence of NDE; although all patients had been clinically dead, most did not have NDE. Furthermore, seriousness of the crisis was not related to occurrence or depth of the experience. If purely physiological factors resulting from cerebral anoxia caused NDE, most of our patients should have had this experience. Patients' medication was also unrelated to frequency of NDE. Psychological factors are unlikely to be important as fear was not associated with NDE." What this means is the usual skeptic dismissals of NDEs have been scientifically repudiated. NDEs do not seem to be a function of the brain in the final moments of life, 'preparing' the individual for death, for instance, nor do they seem to be a result of lack of oxygen supply to the brain. Does this mean that NDEs are 'real' experiences? Not necessarily. Not any more than lucid dreams are 'real'. But, it has been shown that people who are having OBE or NDEs can obtain verifiable information from the real world when their brains were effectively offline, and this is not anecdotal. It is not possible to apprehend information when the organ required for that process is in a non-cognitive state. Either our understanding of the way the brain functions is seriously in error (which seems to be counter to the many decades of successful medical procedures based on it), or consciousness, under some circumstances, can exist non-locally, or outside the organic brain.

posted by Hank Mabuse 16 years ago
  • Poor argument. What, so they're saying that if NDEs are caused by physiological factors, then all people in a broadly similar physiological state ('clinically dead') should have NDEs? By the same reasoning, if I see pink elephants when drunk, and another drunk doesn't, the pink elephants were not caused by the drink (and must presumably be considered valid objects of biological study). To round it off, they themselves say that a well-functioning short-term memory is essential if you're going to remember you had an NDE - so plausibly, all clinically dead people may have NDEs and some just forget them. Real, but not veridical experiences. I don't believe it's ever been shown that OBE or NDE states allow you to obtain real reportable information you couldn't have got anyway. Weren't there experiments in which some sort of a big sign was put on top of cabinets in hospitals saying, in effect "IF YOU CAN SEE THIS YOU MUST BE HAVING AN OBE AND FLOATING UP NEAR THE CEILING: DON'T FORGET TO TELL US ABOUT IT"? But negative results don't get reported.
  • Here's a thoughtful view.
  • For some reason I got a perverse chuckle out of darling's comment. I can just see some smart ass putting a sign up in the OR near the ceiling: "IF YOU CAN SEE THIS, YOU'RE FUCKING DEAD!" Okay, maybe it's just my own gallows humor. See, it's funny, cuz the guy reading it is DEAD! See? Do you see?
  • I'll have to take a stab at the pdf later this evening, but it's a subject I have always enjoyed pondering. One story that I always recall when hearing about NDEs was one I listened to via a late-night radio talk show many years ago. It was not your typical "calm white light" NDE story. The woman telling the story recalled how her NDE experience was a storm of flame-like visions. Upon recovering from what ever it was that put her near death, she changed her life around and began a path of selflessness and attempting to help others. She stated that she no longer feared death, because she knew what she had to do to turn her life around. It was an interesting twist. Some interesting stories can always be had here.
  • There's a bright white light in my eyes; it's so blinding that I have to squint to see. Then I realize it's a spotlight, and I'm on a stage in front of a studio audience, standing next to an entity with the voice of Bob Barker but the appearance of Michael Jackson. I know I have to choose between Door #1 and Door #2, but the entity keeps distracting me, grasping at my crotch and mumbling about how it's time to insert the probe. Then, suddenly, I wake up, and I'm back in Kansas, in my bed. You were there, and you, and you, too!
  • NDEs do not seem to be a function of the brain in the final moments of life... Although the study does say that: ...neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe during neurosurgery for epilepsy, with high carbon dioxide levels and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulitng in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots.... OTOH, it then remarks that induced experiences though similar are not identical to NDEs... The anecdotal reports of OBE are fascinating but clearly needs more rigourous study.
  • it then remarks that induced experiences though similar are not identical to NDEs Yeah, that part bothered me as it's completely wrong. Clearly they haven't taken enough drugs.
  • What he said. I just wanted to say that.
  • from what I remember when I read it, this study's primary finding was that they couldn't find a pattern in predicting who would have an NDE. Their conclusion was that medical and psychological factors were ineffective at predicting who would have an NDE. This does not mean that there is no physical basis for an NDE. If someone did a study investigating hockey players who suffer injurious collisions during games, and found that there was no correlation between the frequency of collisions, and factors like aggressiveness, skill level, quality of eye-sight, etc. it would be stupid to conclude that the basis of these collisions is not physical, but rather, spiritual.
  • I was once told that I had been near death, but I didn't recall any special visions or anything while I was unconscious.
  • ..it would be stupid to conclude that the basis of these collisions is not physical, but rather, spiritual. Holy invalid syllogism, batman!
  • What no one dares mention is that what's really at the end of the tunnel isn't a light but a GIANT MONKEY FACE.
  • Holy invalid syllogism, batman! ?
  • .. Because the conclusion that it is something 'spiritual' does not necessarily follow. No need to invoke that particular line of reasoning. The idea is that there is nothing 'spooky' in this, merely that it suggests hypotheses outside of our current understanding of the function of consciousness. Let us not fall into the error of Antoine Lavoisier by saying, so to speak, that 'no stones fall from the sky because there are no stones in the sky.' Some interpretations of Quantum Mechanics lead theorists to propose that consciousness acts non-locally, for instance, & these lines of thought are by no means considered cranky; no one suggests that QM is a bogus field. The evidence gathered under controlled examinations where information has been gathered by subjects in a non-direct manner is too copious to list, & has a long history of detailed observation. Professional skeptics use the ephemeral nature of such examples to dismiss the data as anecdotal, yet this appears to be a weak stance. Positing that consciousness is non-local doesn't necessarily invoke the existence of a giant invisible space-monkey, bigfoot or FSM.
  • I don't know about NDEs, but reincarnation is a well-attested phenomenon around here, I'm glad to see.
  • HA! /slaps knee good to see you, Pleggers.
  • The evidence gathered under controlled examinations where information has been gathered by subjects in a non-direct manner is too copious to list, & has a long history of detailed observation. Professional skeptics use the ephemeral nature of such examples to dismiss the data as anecdotal, yet this appears to be a weak stance. Anecdotal evidence does have a long history, all that skeptics say is that, this in itself is not enough. I.e. there is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in yer anecdote.
  • I remain very unconvinced. Seems to me that the idea of non-local consciousness has too many problems. All the NDEs I've heard of are indeed, just anecdotal, and happened without any proper experimental controls. So as for me, it's wait and see.
  • .. Because the conclusion that it is something 'spiritual' does not necessarily follow. No need to invoke that particular line of reasoning. The idea is that there is nothing 'spooky' in this, merely that it suggests hypotheses outside of our current understanding of the function of consciousness. But there is nothing at all in this study that requires a reassessment of our understanding of consciousness. Have you actually read it? It doesn't purport to prove that NDE's exist in the absence of physical brain activity (although it references some anecdotal evidence about this in the discussion). This study was a purely statistical one, examining the correlations between physiological/psychological conditions and occurrence of NDE's. as for spooky interpretations, the lead author of the study (pim van lommel) does go into the spiritual/speculative side of things... http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/death/de-touber.htm According to Van Lommel, near-death experiences can only be explained if you assume that consciousness, along with all our experiences and memories, is located outside the brain. When asked where that consciousness is located, Van Lommel can only speculate. "I suspect there is a dimension where this information is stored — a kind of collective consciousness we tune into to gain access to our identity and our memories."
  • According to Van Lommel, near-death experiences can only be explained if you assume that consciousness, along with all our experiences and memories, is located outside the brain. I'm surprised he said this given what little is known. We do know that consciousness is linked to measurable electrical activity in the brain. But we don't know the quantitative limits of the relationship. I.e. How much electrical activity is actually needed for a person to have one or two dwindling thoughts? Maybe we don't even have to have a noticeable pulse in EEG activity to think those last thoughts. Maybe all that's needed is a last burst of neurotransmitters, a noise spike of cells shutting down.
  • i don't think there's any peer reviewed literature which shows a lack of EEG activity associated with NDE's. I believe it's anecdotal (look at reference 22 in the lancet study). But, even if there were no EEG measured, this does not mean that there was no brain activity going on - EEG is a relatively crude measure. An f-MRI scan would be much more revealing. But I do acknowledge that if it could be shown that there was the possibility of conscious experiences in the absence of physical activity in the brain, it would turn cognitive neuroscience on its head.
  • Yes, you're right spacediver, an MRI would be much, much better. I can see though why perhaps there is a reluctance to investigate NDE's in more depth. Doing an MRI scan on a dying patient to get a picture of their last thoughts is more than a little morbid. I can't imagine what kind of patient release form would be required.
  • perhaps in the future there'll be ways to safely induce near death states, in the hopes that a near death experience will emerge. One problem would be corroborating the timeframe of the reported experience with the imaging data. (e.g. perhaps the entire experience would occur while the brain was shutting down, as opposed to after it shut down, and the subject would have no way to say when it happened).
  • Why not just rent Flatliners?
  • This is a creepy topic. I'm going to turn all the lights on in the house.
  • Someday, we'll just be able to dump the contents of our brains into our iBrains, and then we'll know.
  • I consider South Dakota to be a near-death state.
  • Well, our heirs will have to pay a high monthly fee to know.