December 16, 2006

• Sounds like a learned behaviour, really. I wonder how they decide who gets what. What else could be going on here we don't know about?
• next the zombies will be working together and we'll be doomed!
• Yep, learned behaviour. Which opens up a can of worms, if you forgive the pun. Because it implies that there is some spark of intelligence in these beasties beyond what zoology has allowed us to accept. Who was the first to forge this bestial bond? Of subtle sense his soul was formed.
• apologies to Tibullus
• If the octopi and the dolphins ever get it together, humanity is toast.
• Mind is mind, regardless of whether it inheres to a lobster or homo-so-called sapiens. ;]
• If the octopi and the dolphins ever get it together, humanity is toast. Don't dolphins and sharks sometimes put aside their differences to catch migrating fish? I think seagulls get involved too. No octopi, though, so perhaps we're safe. For now.
• Thinking over whether this is a first, the naturalist Barry Lopez been writing for over couple of decades about ravens and noted co-operative hunting between ravens and wolves, and these accounts are also substantiated by indigenous peoples as occurring from time to time among human beings and ravens. Been many legends and accounts of indigenous hunters led to game by raven(s), a phenomenon more noted to occur in winter. Cf article here [PDF] and in HTML (tiny-tiny text) touches on scavenger-predator aspects of one contemporary wolf-raven relationship. Others have reported cooperative hunting between badgers, peregrine hawks, etc.
• ...[T]he first known instance of cooperative hunting between species seen outside humans. What other species have we cooperated with?
• Dogs and hawks, to mention but two.
• The human wolf/dog alliance goes WAY back. Would love to know more about dingoes and aboriginal folk in Australia. How does/did that work, Chy?
• Don't that Barry Lopez write good, Bees? I'm waiting till the Furry People get sick of us, rise up, and put us in our place. (We'll be dinner, then)
• He do indeed! Opinions abound, but not nearly enough observation of creatures in the wild. People make a lot of assumptions, and a lot of armchair guessing happens, but when we actually observe a bird or a fish or a land-bound creature, that's when we stand a chance of learning something new.
• Pacific salmon often hunt by forcing a school of herring towards the surface where seagulls (and sometimes eagles) attack from from above, forcing the herring back down to the salmon. Salmon fishermen, seeing the commotion created by the birds know to troll through the herring ball. Seals also join in, the smarter ones waiting until a salmon is on the hook before going after it, much to the dismay of the fisherman. Examples of symbiotic hunting I suppose, rather than actual cooperation.
• What is the distinction when animals are involved between symbiotic hunting and cooperative hunting? Basically both seem to be a you-scratch-my-back-I-scratch-yours relationship. If we could talk to them we might be able to make such a further distinction. But can we otherwise, lacking language?
• a dingo ate my baby
• The diff between cooperative hunting and symbiosis begins with thinkng about mutualistic symbiosis versus the less fun versions; parasitic symbiosis and so on. Then it becomes the diff between "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" and "we'd both like to eat Fred over there, how can we collaboarte to make that happen?" It seems to me to be a leap of intelligence rather than just habit.
• The Honeyguide recruits assistants from other species, including humans, to help it deal with bees nests. That's not strictly hunting, I suppose.
• There's hunting and there's hunting. To search for or to locate something, such as a food source, is one of the meanings of hunt. However, if you limit hunt to mean - killing a prey animal, then perhaps not. Now the beeswacky persona is buzzing in my ear, insisting I type: HONEYGUIDES ARE EVIL!!!!! I ain't sure if ours is a symbiotic relationship or not.
• "Would love to know more about dingoes and aboriginal folk in Australia. How does/did that work, Chy?" Dingos arrived in Australia much later than the Aboriginals. They were probably brought by seagoing people from Indonesia about 4000 BC. Aboriginals arrived 50,000 years ago At one time the dingo (or warrigal) was widespread in the old world. They are a split from an early form of domesticated dog-wolf. They're still common in Asia, Vietnam & so forth. Modern dogs are a different branch that are not quite as individualistic & opportunistic. Dingos can be domesticated & some claim they make good pets, but they are always likely to opportunistically take things. They're no good on a farm or with other animals, they'll try to kill them. They are easily likely to take children, they took Azaria Chamberlain, no question, & devoured the baby. It was always a source of amazement to our family, having been in the country, that Lindy Chamberlain was suspected of murdering her own baby because it was readily obvious that a dingo would take an infant human if it had the chance. It was a great injustice that she was locked up for that. Shameful how she was treated. If in a group of 4-5, they have been known to even try to knock down & worry children of up to age 10-11. They have killed children of age 4-9. You have to watch the dingos, they are opportunistic little motherfuckers. I don't particularly like them because of their nature, I don't believe they can ever be fully tamed. Unfortunately, you cannot abide them to live near farms, & they must be driven away or killed. That is, if you want your animals to live. :\ As far as I know, dingos don't form proper packs, so they may not be very useful as hunt partners in the way wolf hybrids are/were. I'm not aware of Aboriginal people using dingos to help them hunt as such; Aboriginal lifestyle is hunter-gatherer; I'm not sure how the dingo would help, perhaps in smelling out game. Aboriginals have used dingos as companion animals, they can keep you warm at night, & probably food, too. :)
• Thanks, Chy. Mind-twisting to consider eating a dingo that's eaten a child. Vicarious cannibalism, but I suppose when the alternative's grubs or small game, then roast dingo would come to seem more acceptable. I take it dingoes are a pariah dog, then, I take it. An interesting and independent-minded group of animals, but on the whole ill-suited to areas with increasingly dense human populations. I assume they will be an increasingly endangered species in consequence. Either the Chamberlain case was not well-covered in the press over here, or I missed much of it. Seems issues touching the standard of admissible evidence are always tricky, regardless of jurisdiction, but the prosecution of the case sounds ... odd, from what I read now online.
• The press vilified her, & there was a media feeding frenzy. It may have been something to do with the fact that she was a 7th Day Adventist. In any case, it was absurd that a lot of people said that a dingo would not take "something as large as a baby" when they regularly kill lambs. Not necessarily newly born ones, either. Now, with the deaths of a couple of older children by dingos since that time, people are not so naive. A pariah dog? I had to google that. Sort of, but I wouldn't term them feral, since they've never been domesticated to start with, as I understand it. They have lived with human societies, but they are essentially wild. They have a bad reputation & it is well deserved, but I don't think there is an active urge to go out and wipe 'em out, as there is for, say, foxes. People just prefer them away from farms & habitation. These are nice looking animals, which is deceptive. Some claim that they have been unfairly treated, & stand by them as good companions, which I think takes a special kind of person as it would to have a pet wolf. I.e., touched! :D I am not one to make these kinds of statements lightly about animals. Dingos are not endangered. They are protected in national parks in various states. They are hardy & breed easily. I'm not aware of regular culls taking place except in certain places like holiday locale Fraser Island where they have bred to larger populations & threaten tourists. I suppose they would be analogous to a larger, braver coyote.
• Aboriginals have used dingos as companion animals, they can keep you warm at night, & probably food, too. :) Apparently, Aboriginal children not being as tasty as white kids are safe from the opportunistic little motherfuckers. As always, there is a place in this world for dingos, as there is for all creatures we humans may not like. The problem isn't the dingos, it's our encroachment on their territory. Actually, they ARE opportunistic little motherfuckers -- that's their survival strategy. I'm sure they would kill an unwatched infant, as they would a lamb, but everything I've read and know about coyotes and other canids makes me believe they would back off quickly from an adult. I heard about and researched the Chamberlain case, and everything I read indicates that she was, at least, negligent, if not active in harming her infant. She sounds like a woman with PPD, if not just an active flake. If PPD, that's something that could excuse her. The bottom line though: enough evidence was gathered by invesigative officers to indicate guilt. MonkeyFilter: opportunistic little motherfuckers
• "are safe from the opportunistic little motherfuckers." Good point. Touche. But I have to say that Aborignal trackers hunt & kill the wild dingo. A 'tame' one is probably less vicious, so you nailed my prejudice against the animal, there. Maybe due to the basic white racism, I doubt we'd hear about Abbo kids being mauled or eaten, since Whitefella don't give a damn about their general health anyway. Dingo attacks on Aboriginal children have never been recorded. Unlikely that they don't happen, given the Fraser Island deaths. Aboriginal people are tough as fuck, though. Saw an Aboriginal woman beating a dingo with a stick pretty wildly in Merredin a few years back, maybe it went after her kid. /shrug ;) Perhaps I am being too harsh on the Dingo. I hear you. Brainwashing from the farming side of the family, no doubt. I don't believe Lindy Chamberlain was negligent as such. I don't think she deliberately put the child in harm's way. She made a horrendous mistake in not watching the kid. She's a crazy religious fundie, & I think the Aussie 7th Day Adventists are nuttier than most after having had lots to do with them, but that doesn't play a part. She had other kids, & none of them have ever been harmed. She was definitely unfairly vilified.
• If experience has taught me anything, there are two words to remember when staging a live nativity scene: no dingoes. (Bob VanVoris) Well, there you have it. That should be the final word next holiday season.