July 24, 2006

• Who mines for spices? Spices grow.
• There IS a distinct resemblance between Vladimir Harkonnen and Jabba the Hutt, is there not?
• SW: Jabba (1983) is a worm/slug thing, about 15 feet long, with human-like facial features, arms and hands, who sits atop a dais D: Leto II, God Emperor of Dune (1981), is a worm/slug thing, about 15 feet long, with human-like facial features, arms and hands, who sits atop a dais
• "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." When I read that, I quit being afraid of anything (except clowns)
• Isn't there some mention of a "spice" shipment in Star Wars? I seem to remember Han saying something in the first one...
• Much Science Fiction of Herbert's day was limited by the idea that SF was a completely new genre. Because of this many writers looked only as far as H.G. Wells, Jules Verne, Edgar Allan Poe or Mary Shelly for their inspirations, reaching back only 200 years. Herbert understood that science fiction is less a genre than a modern vocabulary through which to express the oldest genre in the world, the Fantastic Tale (the oldest stories of every known culture are almost exclusively Fantastic Tales). Because he saw the Fantastic Tale as a continuum reaching back past Wells and Verne through the Greek epics, Herbert was able to reach back not 200 years, but 3,000. In a way this gave him a 15:1 advantage over the average SF writer! Well (and geekily) put, Ms. Brennan!
• Thank you, wiki.
• Well, Leto II had a lot in common with his sluglike maternal Granddad.
• Under the influence of glitterstim, the consumer may lose control of himself, much like someone who is drunk. What makes glitterstim so widely sought after, however, is its ability to induce temporary telepathy. Lovers, warlords, and even spies have been known to make use of it. In fact, while imprisoned on Kessel, Han Solo was subjected to a mind probe by the leader of the Kessel spice mines, Moruth Doole, while Doole was under the influence of glitterstim. Han Solo began his running of glitterstim while working for the T'landa Til (relatives of Hutts) on the planet Ylesia, where the T'landa Til ran a spice market controlled by the Hutts.
• Oops. Got my family tree mixed up there. Great-Granddad.
• I have sacrificed what little credibility I had, havent I?
• Also not having read Dune yet, with its being on The List for quite some time, thanks for the spolier alert, pete. You fucker. Aah, who am I kidding. I'll never read it. Thanks, pete.
• We'll read it together, Louis. Just as long as we don't have to talk about Sting in a speedo, it's all good.
• Fear is the little-death I've never heard le petit mort called fear before.
• "Muad'dib! It is prophesied that you shall stand at my side, and that there shall be water inside a rock!" "It is as it shall be written. He will walk with the dust of the desert fox, ayah." "Sire! A Harkonnen patrol has been spotted in the south!" "We shall not attack, nay, Gurney man." And yet he expects that I shall think that we should attack. Thought Paul. He is yet a boy. thought Gurney. Ai, that his Father were here. I wish I could kill the Harkonnens. Ai, I wish I could kill the Harkonnens, ayah. thought Gurney. He is thinking that I am just a boy. thought Paul. And that he wishes my Father were here, ayah. thought Paul. "Gurney, man. Today we shall stay in the caves, and drink water. But no water shall be drunk." said Paul. He thinks me just a boy! thought Paul. Ai, he is just a boy. thought Gurney. "As you wish, sire." said Gurney. As you wish, sire! thought Paul.
• Muad'Dib is a killing word! Just typing that either killed someone, or at least gave them real bad diarhea or a severe cold or something.
• which one is the one for orgasm? N9*hbn! )#QMU*3,{ SNdozbn! Hcoqnep!
• Oh. Thanks pete!
• I've never heard le petit mort called fear before. You've obviously never done it with me. *cue Darth Vader theme music*
• Beer is the mind-killer
• It is from Oedipus Rex that Herbert borrows the underlying theme of prescience (the ability to tell the future) and prophecy (a foretelling of a future event). . . The Ancient Greek idea of foretelling the future centered around a shrine called The Oracle at Delphi, established around 1,400 BCE. People would come from all over Greece, Rome and even further to ask when to plant their crops, who to marry, even whether or not to go to war. Prophecies were given by the Pythia, the mouthpiece of Ge the Earth Mother (later changed to the male god Apollo by some men carrying extremely pointy sticks). I like this writer. And I demand that each and every one of you Read The Fine Article. There will be at test. A failing grade on the test will get you thrown into the pit with The Quid.
• The similarities are superficial. Anyone who has read Dune knows that the story more resembles some kind of gothic tale of medieval intrigue than sword & sorcery in space. There are zero space battles in Dune, IIRC, & they are almost the central element of the first SW movies. Lucas' *major* influences were Flash Gordon serials (which is utterly obvious from watching the Prequels - same guns & ships, & he even *directly* borrowed Ming the Merciless' round television viewer & sound effect for the Trade Federation communication with Padme) & golden age sci fi comics, such as Amazing Stories. He even *hired* one of the writers of mid 20th century comic book sci fi stories (Leigh Brackett) to do a pass on Empire. Mos Eisley was originally going to be called Spaceport Gordon, as homage. In fact, the story of Star Wars is influenced by dozens of different things, notably WW2 battle of britain type movies (he even choreographed the space battles in SW & Empire from dogfight footage from old movies & used clips as placeholders before the special fx modelwork was done) & Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress - even the Prequels dipped back into this well with the princess disguising herself as a handmaiden, which is a major plot point in that movie. R2 & 3P0 are directly based on the two oafish peasant characters from this movie. Also, the design of 3P0 is almost *identical* to the robot from Fritz Lang's Metropolis. This was deliberate. Luke's recovery of his father's sword under tutelage of a wise old wizard is very close to the Arthurian romances, particularly The Sword in the Stone iteration. If you read the first drafts of Lucas' scripts, which are online, the similarities both to Hidden Fortress & to elements that made their way into the final story of Phantom Menace are obvious. Repulsors, anti-grav ships, laser swords, space battles, desert planets had all been used as fantasy & sci fi elements countless times before 1950 - go read Burroughs' Mars books, for instance, or the Lensmen series by EE 'Doc' Smith. Even Jules Verne had written about anti-grav repulsor-type technology, and it doesn't take a genius to supe-up that idea into something that will sound more technological, as Herbert & countless other writers did. None of it is original to any one writer. This shit is some fanboy going off over something he thinks nobody else has noticed til now - newsflash, we knew all about this shit back in 1978 because Herbert tried to sue Lucas & the thing was thrown out of court. This was heavily discussed in various cinema mags back then, too. Dismissed because the similarities are limited. Much as I admire Herbert's master work, as a writer he is waaaaay over rated. Just one thing destroys his book - ask yourself where Arrakis' oxygen comes from if the whole planet is desert? *poof* (okay, in subsequent books he explains that the sandworms belch it out, but pretty bad cockup for a sci-fi writer if you ask me)
• & isn't Princess Alia almost not even in Dune? IIRC, she is quoted at the beginning of chapters from her memoires, Borges-like, but only appears at the end with the Padishah Emperor? Been a while since I read it.
• Note: it occurs to me that a lot of what I wrote may be in fact inaccurate, since I have done a lot of drugs & booze since I spent any time contemplating this shit on the tree of woe.
• Actually it's a bit more about Herbert as a writer and SF as a genre which uses the comparison to Star Wars as an introduction to Herbert's writing, the continuum of telling "fantastic tales", and some behind-the-scenes of Dune itself. Nice rant, all the same. I can see that the Cap'n and I have dates with oxygen-burping space worms. Sand worms. Whichever.
• White Worms?
• And while we're at it: just exactly HOW could some sort of "spice" give you the "ability" to "fold space?" I have LOTS of spices, and although some of them have often contributed to delicious omlettes NOT A ONE HAS EVER ALLOWED ME TO TRAVEL TRANSDIMENSIONALLY!!! What is this? Some sort of "magic" spice? Compare this to Lucas's scientifcally workable explanation of "the force" as tiny particles of chlorine and there is no doubt who the true genius is.
• "..it's a bit more about Herbert as a writer and SF as a genre.." It's badly sourced, badly inferred pseudo-literary critique. The writer is claiming Jabba the Hutt is based on a character written years later than Jabba was invented, has a list of similarities which pretty much stretch it, & I stopped reading where he seems to imply Herbert changed sci-fi from boys' own adventure into high art, which shoes the guy hasn't read any real science fiction from before Herbert's era.
• The writer is claiming Jabba the Hutt is based on a character written years later than Jabba was invented Er... Return of the Jedi came out in '83, God Emperor of Dune in '81. You might be on to something if New Hope Jabba hadn't been a fat irish guy.
• Lucas ripped off the idea of the Force from prana or chi, & melded it with Einstein's postulated unified field theory. Later he adds the midichlorians (read: mitochondria) to explain why some beings are stronger with the Force than others, & why it runs in families. There is almost no real scientific explanation of anything in Star Wars. We are never told how lightsabres work (the stupid subsidiary novels etc excluded) or what properties a hyperdrive uses, or any real technical stuff at all. Star Wars is more of a fantasy than sci-fi. We are shown a bunch of stuff & left to infer what makes it go.
• Nick, Jabba was always intended to be a big fat slug-like alien (I think he might have had fur, too, at first). The Irish actor was there for someone for Harry Ford to point & grimace at. They were gonna use a stop-motion puppet & superimpose it over the actor. This never happened because the first movie was not very well budgeted & they literally ran out of time. The scene was dropped. The drafts for the subsequent screenplays were written over a considerable period of time, I don't think the connection is too likely, to be honest.
• Harry Ford can point and grimace at me any day. *has impure thought, right there in front of everybody*
• I'm not saying Lucas is original, in fact I'm pretty much saying the exact opposite, but claiming that Lucas directly lifted material from Dune so heavily is just wrong. There are superficial similarities, just as there are to dozens of other properties.
• Shit, TUM, I thought you was a bloke! Or maybe you are.. uh, I.. er
• I'm not saying Lucas is original, in fact I'm pretty much saying the exact opposite, but claiming that Lucas directly lifted material from Dune so heavily is just wrong. There are superficial similarities, just as there are to dozens of other properties. I think you're taking this article the wrong way, then. The author seems to just be catologuing those similarities (some more dubious than others) as a kind of "if you enjoy Star Wars than perhaps you'll enjoy this" recommendation, not trying to say Lucas ripped Herbert (or Shakespeare or Sophocoles off).
• Ok. For all the questions about the spice (i.e. why do they mine it, how does it allow them to travel transdimensionally, etc), see this. My 2 bits is that both were based on common mythological themes. And if you want more wikipedia links, I'll see what I can do. I got a million of 'em.
• Yeah yeah, that's it. Common themes and shit. Just read the section headings. Shakespeare, Sophocles and Heisenberg, Oh My!
• So he's saying Herbert is the rip-off artist? WHat is it with this guy, all his hate?
• No, Shakespeare. And that's pretty much beyond reproach.
• Harry Ford can point and grimace at me any day. That is about the only thing he is good at. Real badassss
• Lucas originally wanted Mifune to play Obi-Wan Kenobi in the first movie. I forget why that didn't work out, but christ, that would have been fuckin' cool.
• Yeah, the pointing & grimacing is Ford's entire acting technique in a nutshell. The real irony of it is that Mark Hamill is the better actor, technically! I've said it before & I'll say it again, anyone who can emote sadness, amazement, then compassion to a dying muppet in one take has good chops. Pity about all his other movies. I think he played whiny farm boy too well, or something.
• Lucas ripped off Campbell. Everyone knows that. Duh.
• Campbell ripped off my subconscious. And yours. And yours. Class action lawsuit, anyone?
• Well if Mifune would have played Obi-Wan no one would have believed Darth Vader beat him. Actually the empire never would have come to power, Senator Palpatine would have been bitch slapped a long time ago. It would have been a story about what would have heppened if Obi-Wan wasn't born.
• Geek threads always get the most traffic.
• Why do I feel like I'm stuck in a small, windowless room with a bunch of sweaty jokers from Comic-Con?
• You...ARE!!! Monkeyfilter: a small, windowless room with a bunch of sweaty jokers You geeks know I love ya', right?
• Finally got around to reading the article. In his list of similar elements he leaves out "Twins with vaguely incestuous overtones." And in what way is Duncan Idaho similar to Duncan from Macbeth save in name?
• Alia is in the first book. She contributes to the major battle against the Harkonnens, running around and cutting the wounded enemies' throats (at the ripe old age of four, IIRC). And yes, Jabba was originally to be a furry creature, sort of Wookie-like. The original scene shot in episode IV used a human as Jabba because, Lucas claimed, he was running out of money. He cut it out because it wasn't everything he wanted it to be. Stupid thing is, Han's conversation with Jabba in that scene is damn near verbatim with the one he has with Greedo in the cantina, so it should have stayed on the cutting room floor, not resurrected with that gawdawful digital overlay Jabba he did for the "special" edition. Dune is more Sci-Fi, Star Wars more classic fantasy. They to me actually represent a good example of the difference between the two genres. But yeah, if you like one, you'll probably like the other. Just stop reading Dune after book two or three.
• Auctully, Star Wars is Space Opera, not fantasy.
• Chyren- just a teeny note-- the diary entries you are talking about in Dune are Princess Irulan. Alia is later. /oh so nerdy
• I HATE STAR WARS! WHY DO PEOPLE LIKE THIS MOVIE? WHY NOT USE THE LIGHT SABRE ON YOUR OWN ASSES?!??! I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT. THANK YOU
• Hitler. There. I said it. *silverbacks*
• Useless trivia : "Anakin" in Moroccan Berber (Tachelheit) means "I am." (Yes, I know it was Tunisia, not Morocco - but the dialects have similarities)
• Anakin, seen as a compound, could be taken to mean 'without relatives'.
• 
• Nickdanger, it's only in the movie of Dune that the spice allows you to 'fold space' and 'travel without moving'. In the books (or at least the first one) the spice gives you clairvoyance enough to steer a spaceship at immense speed without hitting stars or whatever. I guess David Lynch came up with the 'fold space' bit. Dune gave Eon some good samples..."He who controls the spice controls the Universe!"
• Surely the common element is shitty, shitty sequels spunked out to wring money from the credulous? How many post mortem Dune books are there now? a million? A billion?
• In the books (or at least the first one) the spice gives you clairvoyance enough to steer a spaceship at immense speed without hitting stars or whatever. Okay, that makes a bit more sense. So, would that make alcohol my "spice" for driving?
• Yes. "I've had a little drink, and I'm feeling right, I can fly right over everything, everything in sight!" And Nervous Norvus agrees with you.
• *adds points to muteboy's score*
• *prize bell goes off* Muteboy, you win! And here to show the prize is our lovely Vanna. It's...it's a light sabre...for use on YOUR OWN ASSES!!!@! THANK YOU>
• HERE IS THE TRUT ABOU STAR WARS. CAN YOU HANDLE THE TRUT? WHAT IS THE FORCE THEY TALK ABOUT? THE FORCE BE WITH YOU. HOW STUPID IS THAT? FORCE IS MASS TIEMS ACCELERATION! WHEN THE FORCE BE WITH YOU, IT IS MASS TIMES ACCELERATION. MAY YOU BE MASSIVELY ACCELERATED. NO LIE>
• What? No, you idiot, the force is STRONG. and the strong force is represented as interactions between quarks and gluons, where the QCD Lagrangian density reads "L" = F something something F something something sigma something quasi-fucking thingy whatever little g over upside triangle something times greek thing minus the sum of M something delta whisky foxtrot. You MORAN.
• But in the end, all that really counts is the gold bikini. (Or Sting's batwing jockstrap, if you're a Dune fan.)
• As a Dune fan I can say it was all about Francesca Annis. Even her name is sexy. Not Sexy!
• MORAN? THAT IS NOT MY NAME. MY FRIENDS AREN"T MORAN. I HAVE LOTS OF FIENDS BUT NO MORANS. YOU WORNG ABOUT THE FORCE. LOOK WHEN DARTH VADER SAID ABOUT THE DARK SIDE, WHAT WAS THAT? CAN YOU HANDLE THE TRUT? IT WAS THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON. SO YOU WATCH STAR WARS YOU WATCH HIS BIG BIG MOON. THAT IS WHY YOU SHOULD PRACTICE WITH THE LIGHT SABER< SO YOU CAN USIE IT ON HIS BIG MOON>.
• MonkeyFilter: batwing jockstrap quasi-fucking thingy whatever little g over upside triangle *checks GramMa's Manual of Tagline Style Handbook (tm)* Yep! I'm sticking with it.
• Jihad?
• It wasn't to avoid hitting stars. It had to do with selecting the proper future from all the possible futures which included you at the destination. Selecting the proper path was what enabled you to travel faster than light. It was all bullshit, but there it is. It was nothing as mundane as we need prescience to make sure we don't hit a star.
• That is, the navigators were the spatial-temporal analogy for what Paul used the spice for, which was manipulating future events to a desired outcome. And now, we must fight about our different interpretations of a fictional universe. It was worm shit. Thats what it was. And people were smokin' dat shit like it didn't stink...
• Worm shit... worm shit... /examines spice rack AHA! See you, suckers! /stains become a warning
• YOU WORNG ABOUT THE FORCE. LOOK WHEN DARTH VADER SAID ABOUT THE DARK SIDE, WHAT WAS THAT? He said that because the three kinds of charge in QCD are referred to as "color charge" - dark colour charge, light colour charge and taup. QCD also displays the property that the force between quarks does not diminish as they are separated. That's how Vader could feel Luke up even though he was on that Ice Planet, and it means that it was OK for Luke to bang his sister in the first movie because he was "strange" and she was "charmed". Please commit some kind of painful suicide NOW.
• SO YOU CAN USIE IT ON HIS BIG MOON That's no moon, that's a space station. the pointing & grimacing is Ford's entire acting technique in a nutshell Not true. There's also that thing he does with his fingers when his character's supposed to be hurt. (It made sense in Blade Runner, when his character's fingers were broken, but he does it in a lot of movies.)
• The more sequels there were to Dune the duller they got. The more sequels there were to Star Wars ...
• He said that because the three kinds of charge in QCD. DEAR MR QUIDNUNC: WHY YOU TALK QCD? WHAT MOVIE IS THAT? IS IT A GOOD ONE? I TELL YOU IT IS BETTER THAN STAR WARS. NOW MORE ABOUT DARTH VADER: EVERYONE ACT ALL SCARED ABOUT HIM. BUT WHY? IS IT THE BLACK HAT? NO! IS IT THE BREATHING NOISE? NO THAT IS JUST A NOISE. IS IT THE BIG BLACK CLOAK THAT IS A BLANKET? YES! THINK HOW SCARY IF YOU SEARCHING FOR HIS MOON BACK THERE AND GET LOST. EVERYONE WANT TO SEE LUKE FIGHT THE BLANKET. BUT NO INSTEAD WE SEE HAND CHOPPING AND THE JUMPING YODA.
• OK, you convinced me. Jar-Jar sucked ass, too.
• Pretty weak as nerd-offs go. Where are the diagrams?
• Nothin' but quiddroppings. Cute, tho. They smell like cinnamon.
• And when they're still warm, it's just like walking past the Country Style in the mall, all those fresh cinnabuns...
• WHAT KIND OF TOOTHBRUSH DOES DARTH VADER USIE? IS IT THE MANUAL OR THE ROTARY? IS IT ORAL B? (MY FAVORITE)
• Attention Filterbot "StoryBored", you are advised that your alphanumeric capital formatting switch is engaged in the 1 position. This is your first notification. Failure to secure control of this switch will result in your swift and irrefutable bananination. This communication is ended.
• IS DAT YOU DARTH?
• I'm trying to remember all my drunken cast-party analogies between Star Wars and The Mikado, but I think they mostly revolved around the fact that our Pish-Tush always held his arms like C-3PO.
• Okay so I just finished reading "Dune". Well. Let me say that the first several chapters - most of the first third of the book - were occasioned by utterances to the effect that while I am in fact quite the "Star Wars" aficionado, many elements and significant settings and devices were undoubtedly appropriated from the book "Dune" and sounded like, "D'oh!" And the final scene is almost exactly the final scene of "Return of the Jedi" and that just pissed me off. Geezus, George!
• Oh and by the by, a fine book. Capital! Well worth the read. A thrill ride! Exciting and riveting! The read of the summer! etc. etc.
• Don't go beyond the third book in the series. First three books, good. Sharp downward turn after that.