March 24, 2006

• Stumbled across this and thought it . . . interesting too, if true: Marvin Bush, youngest of the Bush brothers, was director of: The Securacom/Stratesec company was publicly traded and backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corporation. Securacom/Stratesec was in charge of security at the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport, and United Airlines on September 11, 2001.
• o_O
• It's like questions about the true nature of the holocaust. Lots of people think these things, but daren't say them, lest they be censured.
• I go for 'Scenario Z: twelve guys with boxcutters', myself. I'm still not convinced the man in the cave had anything much to do with it.
• Hadn't run into the details about Marvin Bush -- don't think to go to wikipedia for fairly recent news but I will from now on. Thanks, pete!
• I have to agree with those people who feel that, given the US government track record in running things, there's no way they could have pulled this off without getting caught. Incompetent doesn't even begin to describe them. That doesn't rule out B, but I can't bring myself to go further, as much as I hate Bush & Co. Of course, going with B means that they knew and failed to act, which in my mind is really just as bad as anything further down the list. Follow the money trail, folks. But don't get too worked up - conspiracy is like calling someone a racist. Even if there's no evidence, people will think there is, and nobody will forget that it was said in the first place. You see what you want to see.
• I'm definitely of the mind of Scenario B, mainly because the incompetence and poor intercommunication between the necessary groups is well established. I can't see how anyone could seriously believe in A or D, and C, to me, is quite a stretch and presumes a lot of unlikely things.
• "B" rings true for me because it fits a longer history. Osama has tried many times and in many places to do his deeds. When he fails, it is because we got lucky, and those in charge of security brought their A game. When he succeeds is when we are lneptly not paying attention.
• I try not to get too involved in this stuff, because 1.) in a country where it's a tough sell that W is a draft-dodger, nobody is EVER going to believe this, and if you'll entertain it, it just makes you look like a nut case; and 2.) there are plenty of arguments for reviling and impeaching and so on without going to this length. That said- there is something very funny about the way those buildings fell straight down.
• Scenario A. True, the government is incompetent, as per scenario B, but the WTC thing could have just as easily happened Sept 11, 2000, under Clinton's watch. It was just very well planned and very well executed. Scenarios C and D require a tinfoil sombrero. These are not things that could be managed by a handful of trusted neocons. It would require the active participation, cooperation, and complicity of hundreds of people, all committed to killing thousands of their fellow Americans and keeping quiet about it for the past four and a half years. It's just statistically impossible.
• From ze article: Of the 56 respondents, 28 said C, 23 picked B, with 4 (including two Muslim cabdrivers) opting for MIHOP. Almost every white person with a straight job said B. Many disliked Bush but said they couldn’t bring themselves to believe the U.S. government would take part in the death of 3,000 of its countrymen. Typical was the opinion offered by an investment banker at a downtown bar. “I can see them wishing it would happen, secretly happy it did. But on purpose? Look at the way they’ve managed Iraq. They’re boobs. They couldn’t have pulled off 9/11 without getting caught. Not possible.” Uptown, responses were different. “Yeah, they knew,” said a retired transit worker on 116th Street, one of the 17 of 22 black people questioned who picked C. He said he’d heard Marvin Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a director of Securacom, a firm that on 9/11 was in charge of security not only at the World Trade Center but also for United and American airlines as well as at Dulles airport, where Flight 77 took off. “That true?” he asked. Yeah, I said. That’s what I heard. “There anywhere he ain’t got no brother?” “Bush’s cousin, Wirt Walker III, worked there, too.” “Wirt? The third? You’re shitting me.” That makes me question the wiki article about Marvin. Anyway, I think the article is interesting because it acknowledges the various conspiracy proponents.
• It's just statistically impossible. Just for the sake of argument - purely as an exercise - how many people would it take to plant explosives in the buildings? Given unlimited time and resources? Theoretically, couldn't one do it? Two? Wouldn't they also fly the planes? (and therefore remove danger of discovery?) Just saying I don't think it's statistically impossible. Improbable, sure. The author also brought up the notion that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor before it happened. As an analogy for either C or D.
• Err, nineteen. nineteen fanatics with box cutters Nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-Nineteen.
• “I can see them wishing it would happen, secretly happy it did. But on purpose? Look at the way they’ve managed Iraq. They’re boobs. They couldn’t have pulled off 9/11 without getting caught. Not possible.” Ding! All conspiracy theorists are naive about human nature. Tin foil hatters obviously haven't spent much time working with actual human beings, no organization made up of human beings is going to pull off a conspiracy that big without it leaking out all over, least of all the Bush administration. Just for the sake of argument - purely as an exercise - how many people would it take to plant explosives in the buildings? Given unlimited time and resources? Theoretically, couldn't one do it? Two? Wouldn't they also fly the planes? It's not even worth the sake of argument, it's nonsense. Honestly, if you were just going to do a cover up, why bother with the whole planes thing? Just plant some bombs and arrest some arab guys afterwards. That would leak too, of course, but it at least makes a little more sense as a conspiracy theory.
• It never happened. 9/11, that is.
• Dude, it's right there on the Internets. Just like Poland!
• My argument against a conspiracy is that if the Dark Powers were smart enough to blow up the WTC, why didn't they plant some WMDs in Iraq? That would have been a cakewalk compared to riggin up the Twin Towers. Also they could have blown up the Eiffel Tower to get those pesky French folks on side as well.
• That's probably the best one I've heard yet, StoryBored. Nicely reasoned.
• >"They couldn’t have pulled off 9/11 without getting caught. Not possible." Define getting caught. They got caught lying about the war, caught wiretapping American citizens, caught torturing people, etc., etc. There's getting caught, and then there's getting called to account. If they had done this they wouldn't have to make sure absolutely no information leaked out; they'd just have to keep public discussion of it, and public willingness to credit the possiblity, below a certain threshold- which wouldn't be hard at all. Mind you, I'm not saying I think this is what happened. I'm just saying 'it'd be impossible to cover up' is a damn poor argument. Most people still think we invaded Iraq because Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9-11, and it's not because the Downing St. memos motives were brilliantly covered up. People don't want to believe stuff that requires them to change their fundamental attitudes. You'd have a hard time getting people to believe stuff like this if there was film of Bush tiptoeing around with a plunger detonator like Wile E. goddam Coyote.
• If you delete the 'motives' after the word 'memos', you'll find that sentence will make sense.
• Besides the regrettable human carnage, first of all, it was a media hit. Nothing could compare to the visual and emotional impact of those two towers collapsing. Whoever planned it wanted to put the fear of god on the people, and they succeded. Sadly, nowadays just pointing to strange coincidences and odd events gets people labeled a tinfoiler immediately. And wacky theories involving fantastic explanations don't help. Perhaps the truth lies far from controlled demolitions and nearer to the strange financial situation of the towers, prior to the attack. Still, guess these things that were known from long ago but only lately have begun to seep to 'mainstream' media attention could well be the 'leaks' some expect. No, I don't think the Iraq bumblers could have pulled off the 9/11 attack. But who can say only one team can play? Who's to say who is really running the show, who the puppets are? Again, it surprises me and makes me sad that many north americans just can't even consider that their government could play dirty. Surprise, at how history can be so neglected. Sadness, at how we people in other countries can take for granted such situations, coming from those we supposedly elect. Jadedness isn't any more useful than naivete.
• Actually, Flagpole, I disagree that the towers falling was (to use the term very, very loosely) the best possible outcome for those who wish to inflict psychological trauma. I have no profound reasoning behind this, but I just feel that uninhabitable, standing buildings with gaping holes in the sides (or one building standing with a gaping hole and the other building crashing down), and which had to be torn down in the weeks after the attacks would have had more of an impact in that area. More like an open wound where, except for thos in NY for whom their absence was a reminder, the whole country would've stared, dumbfounded at the buildings.
• I'm gonna side with Flagpole (thanks for the check Flaggy, you're sure it's good, right?) on this one. I think the collapse of both towers was analagous to a knockout in boxing. Half-standing would have lingered longer, but it would have been an "on-the-ropes" thing, that's not as complete, so to speak. I also read somewhere awhile ago about the symbolism of a gun to the head, e.g. that famous Vietnamese execution photo.
• Marvin Bush? Okay, exactly how many Bushes are out there? I keep hearing new names all the time and it's scaring me.
• >exactly how many Bushes are out there? You know those Bugs Bunny cartoons where he loses the race to the turtle, only it turns out there were a WHOLE LOT of turtles who all looked alike, and who cheated by just having a new turtle enter the race ahead of Bugs at various points? It's kind of like that.
• That's what I was afraid of. So now I must ask: WHO IS BUGS BUNNY IN THIS SCENARIO?!!
• Ehhhh..... (chews carrot while considering response)
• You wascily Batbit!
• ...then at the end of the cartoon, Bugs says something along the lines of, 'Have I been tricked?', and ALL the turtles appear at once and say, in unison, in a weird, singsongy voice, "MMMM.... IT'S A POSSIBILITY." It's going to be really scary when all the Bushes do that.
• One interesting question is why the conspiracy theories start at all. In this case I think it's because the idea that it was the government that did it is actually more comforting than the idea that one guy in a cave and nineteen dedicated individuals could pull off something so momentous, both in itself and in its ramifications. What do you feel more comfortable with? That all this stuff has happened because of a vast right wing conspiracy involving hundreds of like-minded uber-powerful elites - elites we know to be flawed and catchable, or that it was caused by a guy we can't catch and a group of people so dedicated to their ideas they willingly died for them. Frankly, I wish it had been a Bush conspiracy, because venality I understand, and I know it will be beaten. Faith, however, is a whole more difficult matter.
• It certainly wasn't done by 19 Arabs *alone* without any help.
• >venality I understand, and I know it will be beaten. I'd be comforted to know how you know this, 'cause- respectfully- it seems to me like the asses that are getting kicked by venality right now include yours, mine, and just about everybody else's.
• It's a paper/rock/scissors thing. Let's see, venality kicks our asses, faith beats venality. It's faith/venality/our asses thing. So what beats "faith"? Logic dictates the answer: Our asses.
• my ass will be your faith, fool!
• BEAT!!!! altho maybe that makes a funny joke?
• ve·nal·i·ty Audio pronunciation of "venality" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (v-nl-t) n. pl. ve·nal·i·ties 1. The condition of being susceptible to bribery or corruption. 2. The use of a position of trust for dishonest gain. /stupid
• MonkeyFilter: my ass will be your faith, fool!
• We are unworthy!
• It certainly wasn't done by 19 Arabs *alone* without any help. Racist!
• I rather agree with DIMMN. Underlying these theories is an implicit assumption that the US government is more or less omnipotent if it puts its mind to it, and the USA invulnerable. So when, shockingly, terrorists hit Americans in America, it can only be because the government has been negligent, or allowed it to happen. The idea that the government is murderously wicked is actually more tolerable to some than the idea that there are natural limits to its ability to defend the 'homeland'.
• Also because of JFK, RFK, MLK too.
• The idea that the government...is wicked is ....more tolerable...than the idea that there are natural limits to its ability to defend the 'homeland' And now some relevant information about said defenders. Yes, indeedy, these are the guys who are smart enough to conspire to do *what* again?
• I didn't see it b/c I was too lazy to go to bugmenot.com BUT conspiratorial point of order: the government agents responsible would never be caught. Navy SEALS and whatnot.
• Missle or Plane via MeFi - nifty linx.
• That's just noise. All that argument about missile or plane, the loud debunking of the most extreme conspiracy nuts, is just a distraction from the core facts: the government 9/11 story doesn't add up. Anyone who believes the Bush Administration on anything has rocks in their heads.
• Chyren has it; everything else is tilting at windmills or some more appropriate analogy. How about people stop arguing about trivial and unrealistic rot, and present a united front to the government to demand real answers. /grump
• ?? Okay, what part doesn't add up? I'm open to interpretation . . . At last pulse check, this thread was of a "ShrubCo is far too stupid to pull anything like 9/11 off", is there a point being countered? *pulls out clipboard, makes coffee*
• And what about the anthrax?
• Shh.
• theremite?
• Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?